tubotonia - Posted - 06/21/2022:  15:32:30

Ginseng Sullivan is a wonderful tune — to play, to listen to, or sing along with. But frankly, the lyrics are flawed, IMHO, in a way which interferes with the story the song is trying to tell.

Basically, the first verse describes Sullivan's "Mississippi Delta home." Then the second verse goes on to say that you could see Sullivan every day, walking down the line, speaking his worried mind, etc. Then comes the chorus, where you learn about his age (too old to ride the rails) and occupation (gathering ginseng), and only then that he's in Georgia, not in Mississippi at all. In other words, verse one creates a setting, and then leaves it to you to figure out that Sullivan's not in it!

My thought is that his worrying about getting back home would make more sense if the lyrics had let you know he had left. So, after verse one places his shack down along the river, here's a proposed second verse that gets Sullivan out of Mississippi on his ginseng-gathering mission:

The window’s dark, the door is locked,

The shutters all are closed

‘Cause Sullivan’s up in Georgia,

Where the mountain breezes blow

That's where the ginseng grows

Now when the next verse (i.e. old verse two) says you can see him with his sack on his back and his long hair down behind, you can picture him appropriately (and poignantly) in a mountain environment and far from home. Its final phrase "speaking his worried mind" still serves to introduce the chorus, which you can now hear and feel immediately as a genuine lament (versus being delayed while your logical mind reconstructs the situation.)

rcc56 - Posted - 06/21/2022:  17:07:15

I know the author of the song and just a tiny bit about Sullivan, who was a real person.

The introductory verse is not flawed. It accurately describes the area between Valley Head, AL and Trenton, GA where Sullivan lived and dug ginseng.  It does not refer to Sullivan's long lost Mississippi delta home.



"About three miles from the Battelle Yard, from the reverse curve on down,

Not far south of the town depot old Sullivan's shack was found,

Back on the higher ground." -- Norman Blake



This area lies in a narrow valley between Lookout Mountain and Sand Mountain at the Georgia/Alabama border. Battelle was a mining community that operated at the turn of the 20th century. The mines closed down early in the century, and the community was pretty much deserted.



The "Battelle yard" refers to the abandoned company center by the Alabama Great Southern railway line that runs through the narrow center of the valley. "Not far south of the town depot old Sullivan's shack was found, back on the higher ground" indicates that the shack was up against either Lookout or Sand Mountain, near the Rising Fawn or Valley Head railway depot. I would have to ask Norman about the reverse curve. The trains run at 60 miles an hour through that area, so it was not on the AGS main line. The mining company may have operated a freight spur that ran into one of the nooks and crannies of Lookout Mtn. that are in the area. There is a Wikipidea article about Battelle, AL.    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battelle,_Alabama

Sullivan was an old man who dug ginseng that grew in the area.  From what I was told, he was rather crazy, and if you spoke to him, he would repeat phrases when he talked.  If I remember correctly, he usually had a couple of dogs who accompanied him as he roamed.

I wouldn't expect to find much "higher ground" or a "reverse curve" in the delta.

A good song.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/21/2022 17:18:02

tubotonia - Posted - 06/21/2022:  19:31:28

Thanks for filling in all this missing (and fascinating) information. I knew that Sullivan was supposedly a real person, but that's about all. And in no way do I mean to disagree with you when you say that Sullivan's shack was actually in north Georgia. Your info obviously wipes out the assumptions of my "missing verse," but it seems to me the lyrics could be clearer just the same: I can't be the only person who drew from them the idea that the shack was the home that Sullivan was trying to get back to, and that it was somewhere in the Mississippi delta.

banjoy - Posted - 06/22/2022:  00:15:32

Well, I always assumed the Mississippi Delta was Sullivan's home, because the song explicitly says so:

It's a long way from the Delta to the North Georgia Hills

with a tote bag full of ginseng, don't pay no travlin' bills

And I'm too old to ride the rails or thumb the road alone,

I guess I'll never make it back to home ...

to my muddy water Mississippi Delta Home

Right there, the song says the Mississippi Delta is his home, and that he's stuck in the North Georgia Hills and can't get back home to the Delta.

My understanding has always been that the "Sullivan Shack" was referring to a shack that Sullivan made because he couldn't get back to his home. The shack was not his home, but some temporary thing.

Anyway, that's always been my understanding of the song. And it's a really great song.

banjo5280 - Posted - 06/22/2022:  02:00:17

Since many of us also play guitar, it's probably okay to praise the Tony Rice version of "Ginseng Sullivan," from one of Tony's early albums. Marvelous guitar, of course, and a perfect song for that great Rice voice!

By the way, Wikipedia explains that a "reverse curve" simply is a curve to the left or right followed by a curve in the opposite direction, typically to minimize cut-and-fill requirements or to ease through topography.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 06/22/2022:  06:23:01

One could argue that the missing info/ambiguity serves a dramatic purpose. Blake's first two verses paints a picture: Here's this guy with long hair, he lives in a shack, carries an old tote sack. That all makes the listener wonder, "What IS his story?" And then the chorus explains it. IMHO, that's better than laying it all out from the start.



That said, tubotonia, the verse you wrote is very well crafted.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 06/22/2022 06:24:55

tubotonia - Posted - 06/22/2022:  07:05:02

I've come around to seeing it banjoy 's way: the shack's just temporary quarters while Sullivan's up in N. Georgia. That darn "reverse curve" was actually what threw me off. Since I read it as a river feature (i.e. oxbow) it fit well with being out toward the delta end of a river, where the minimal gradient lets a river meander. In the context of the song, though, and reinforced by rcc56 's details, I see it must refer to the way the railroad tracks curve, near the Battelle yard.

Edited by - tubotonia on 06/22/2022 07:08:04

RB3 - Posted - 06/22/2022:  07:12:13

I once played in a band that included the song in our repertoire. The folks who did the singing in the band were singing "I guess I'll never make it back to my home". I had listened to Norman Blake's album a lot, so I pointed out that the word "my" was not part of the lyric. The singers insisted that the lyric didn't makes sense without the word "my". I argued that the extra word made the lyric sound clumsy. We almost came to blows over the issue.

Norman Blake doesn't need any help writing his songs.

banjoy - Posted - 06/22/2022:  07:40:40

I can't remember where I had heard the back story of this tune. But anyways, the Sullivan Shack was not his home. The Mississippi Delta area was his home and he was an old man forever stranded in N. Georgia. The shack being discovered there was "proof" that this crazy guy of legend who was tattered and rambled on and on -- and who previously was only some local folk tale -- had actually existed in life. The song tells that story.

EDIT TO ADD -- "My muddy water Mississippi Delta Home" is part of the original lyrics. I agree that "never make it back to my home" is not part of the original lyrics. In any event, the lyrics make it clear that his home is the Mississippi Delta, a specific region nowhere near N. Georgia (thus: "It's a long way from the Delta to the North Georgia Hills" ....

Edited by - banjoy on 06/22/2022 07:47:56

rcc56 - Posted - 06/22/2022:  09:29:29

Well, y'all can make this as complicated as you want, but the story is simple and true, and not a folk tale.



Sullivan was a grubby old herb digger who lived in a shack somewhere in south Dade County, GA. many years ago. He supported himself by digging ginseng root and selling it for a few paltry dollars. He had been raised somewhere in the Mississippi delta, and hoped to make it back there someday. He never did. The local folks all knew him. Mr. Blake used to see him roaming around, and painted a picture in song about him.



That part of the country was suspended in time for many years-- until the 1990's, it was still pretty much the same as it had been for most of the century; sparsely populated with only a post office and a small local store that sold canned goods, candy bars, and cigarettes. Most of the residents had been there for quite a few generations and lived simple lives. Fields, mountains, lots of open space, older houses, and yes, a few empty shacks scattered here and there. The shacks are all gone now, as are most of the folks who knew Sullivan; and now there are quite a few modern houses scattered over what was once open space. An example of old rural America that has pretty much disappeared.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/22/2022 09:35:57

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 06/22/2022:  09:45:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB3

Norman Blake doesn't need any help writing his songs.

---

To say the least. I wasn't aware there was any ambiguity to the lyrics. 

rcc56 - Posted - 06/22/2022:  11:37:11

Me neither.



I don't second guess a fellow who can write "The wild rose of morning, that pale flower of dawning, the herald of springtime . . .", and "the wild rose of morning, she's faded with the dawning of every day of sorrow that the long years have sown." -- "Billy Gray"



And I don't question anybody who can rhyme "water" and "quarter." -- "The Ballad of Bill Miner"



And I didn't question Woody when he rhymed "aluminum." -- "The Grand Coulee Dam"



-- Which was one of 26 songs Woody wrote in 30 days for the Bonneville Power Administration. That's a song a day, with Sundays off to have a drink.

Critics are now saying "well, it wasn't really 26 songs because he re-used some of the lyrics." Well, critics, try it sometime and see how many songs you can come up with.

Edited by - rcc56 on 06/22/2022 11:46:35