arlum - Posted - 02/02/2022:  18:31:40

OK. One full day into using a lesson book by Tony Trischka and I have to ask .......

It seems every time a capo required piece is presented Tony then demonstrates all the reasons to skip the capo and use chord inversions instead to preserve the availability of the lower notes that would be lost through the use of the capo. I've tried the examples both ways and, while learning the inversions is an added amount of skill to be learned, it really seems to be worth the effort. I like the idea of preserving the total number of notes available. Maybe this is because I'm a guitarist and already feel the loss of the 6th string. I don't know. I've never been a fan of capos and the one I own for my guitars is only used for The Beatles "Here Comes The Sun" because there seems to be no other way to pull it off. I've purchased an excellent G7th Heritage capo for the times it's truly required but I don't want to use a capo purely for making a musical passage easier. If added practice and the work involved results in not utilizing a capo and preserving access to the full range of notes available on the banjo neck I really believe that's the best path to choose. What are your opinions? Am I over thinking this? A banjo only has so many notes available. The idea of preserving them at all costs just seems like the correct path to follow.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/02/2022:  18:55:56

Sounds like you need to focus on Don Reno who normally did not use a capo and played a more "guitarstic" approach.

Grum - Posted - 02/02/2022:  19:36:58

Banjo Ben has some great lessons on playing in different keys. Essentially he recommends learning the relationships between the neck positions for the I, IV and V chords, using the F and D major closed chord forms (or limit yourself to the few strings you're fingering in the partial chord.) This also works for closed licks.

Having said that I'm not going to start playing songs in A without a capo any time soon.

doryman - Posted - 02/02/2022:  19:48:53

quote:

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Originally posted by Grum

Having said that I'm not going to start playing songs in A without a capo any time soon.

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me neither

jdeluke137 - Posted - 02/02/2022:  19:59:20

I think both options have their place.



If I’m at a jam, and someone calls out a song in Bb that I have a break I’ve been playing for years in G, I’m going to capo up 3 frets so I can use it.



But if I’m working on a song that a band plays in D, E or F I may work out the break without a capo so I can get a particular sound. How it works with a particular song and the lyrics will probably drive my decision.  And speed my also be a factor.

Edited by - jdeluke137 on 02/02/2022 20:01:13

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/02/2022:  21:24:47

quote:

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Originally posted by arlum

I've tried the examples both ways and, while learning the inversions is an added amount of skill to be learned, it really seems to be worth the effort. I like the idea of preserving the total number of notes available.  . . . If added practice and the work involved results in not utilizing a capo and preserving access to the full range of notes available on the banjo neck I really believe that's the best path to choose. What are your opinions? . . . A banjo only has so many notes available. The idea of preserving them at all costs just seems like the correct path to follow.

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Being able to play in different keys without a capo is a tremendous skill definitely worth acquiring. 

But realize that in choosing to play songs in those keys naturally instead of virtually ("as if" in G or sometimes C), you'll change the sound of the piece you're playing. Maybe on vocal numbers without signature banjo solos it doesn't matter. Instrumentals with well known banjo solos are going to come out very different. Sometimes the effect is interesting. Some tunes will lose something in the translation. And some will be a challenge that might in fact not be worth the effort.

Yes, playing without a capo preserves all the available notes. Playing with a capo preserves the inversions in the original, the function of open strings and the availability of familiar licks and phrases. That's not nothing.

"New Camptown Races" is written in B-flat. Even the great Bill Keith played it as if in G with capo at 3. I'd love to hear someone's version in G tuning with no capo.

Bill H - Posted - 02/03/2022:  01:59:03

I like playing fiddle tunes and many are in A or D. Lately I have been tabbing out D tunes in open G tuning and find it much less intimidating than I had imagined. When you think about it, the key of G has one # and in D you are only changing one note--C to C#, so it is not that complicated. I have recently done a tune in F and several in Em as well. Once you dive in, it becomes easier and easier, and I have learned more chord positions in the last year than in the previous 20. I have not tried any A tunes without a capo yet and it doesn't seem to make sense.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/03/2022:  04:49:53

One reason to use a capo..... is to get the same musical sound as if you were in the key of G. There are many hot licks in G, C and/or D that can be reworked in different keys but why? You know how to play them in open G and like the sound, so capo up and keep that particular sound.

I sing a lot in the key of C and capo my banjo up 5. Sounds okay to me and I can play the licks that I'd use in open G. I do about the same thing for the key of D and E: I capo up 2 and play out of C chords: C, F, G, makes it easy in a jam to play a song you've never heard before even if it's in a different key that you originally learned it in.

If you don't like capos, don't use them. As one of our esteemed members often says: it's your banjo, play it your way.

arlum - Posted - 02/03/2022:  05:34:20

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by arlum

I've tried the examples both ways and, while learning the inversions is an added amount of skill to be learned, it really seems to be worth the effort. I like the idea of preserving the total number of notes available.  . . . If added practice and the work involved results in not utilizing a capo and preserving access to the full range of notes available on the banjo neck I really believe that's the best path to choose. What are your opinions? . . . A banjo only has so many notes available. The idea of preserving them at all costs just seems like the correct path to follow.

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Being able to play in different keys without a capo is a tremendous skill definitely worth acquiring. 

But realize that in choosing to play songs in those keys naturally instead of virtually ("as if" in G or sometimes C), you'll change the sound of the piece you're playing. Maybe on vocal numbers without signature banjo solos it doesn't matter. Instrumentals with well known banjo solos are going to come out very different. Sometimes the effect is interesting. Some tunes will lose something in the translation. And some will be a challenge that might in fact not be worth the effort.

Yes, playing without a capo preserves all the available notes. Playing with a capo preserves the inversions in the original, the function of open strings and the availability of familiar licks and phrases. That's not nothing.

"New Camptown Races" is written in B-flat. Even the great Bill Keith played it as if in G with capo at 3. I'd love to hear someone's version in G tuning with no capo.

Old Hickory ,

Excellent points I hadn't considered. Solos coming out differently. I should have immediately thought of that yet did not. Thank you and to all the other members who replied.

Rick

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Bob Buckingham - Posted - 02/03/2022:  06:16:03

I've only played banjo since the 1960's, but I found a capo real handy to get certain sounds. I can also play without one. One finds this necessary from to time to time, but it doesn't always result in the sound you may be looking for and needing in some instances.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/03/2022:  08:10:59

Learning inversions are fine. But the number of inversions for a chord can be very large.
Inversions can make something sound more interesting. But I don't think I coluld do this while improvising off "the top of my head". And, one instructional on chords tells the viewer to warn fellow jammers about chord substitutions. Jammers sometime stop playing when they hear something they aren't expecting. Unexpected "crooked" tunes bring music to a halt.

I am studying the use of more advanced chords. I read and understand a chord theory. Once a week I have a lesson where a jazz guitarist provides the answers to my questions and provides suggested readings. I do think learning more about chords and using this knowledge will enable a player to modify what they play and make the music sound more interesting. Many licks are already accomplishing this, but generally speaking, the average banjo player is not aware of this. One notices that the banjo theory forum is not used that often.

doryman - Posted - 02/03/2022:  13:31:05

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Hauser

Learning inversions are fine. But the number of inversions for a chord can be very large.

Inversions can make something sound more interesting. But I don't think I coluld do this while improvising off "the top of my head".  

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This is a very good point, Dick.  I'm sure that there are folks who can improvise well in any key out of in the open G tuning, but I'm not one of them.  I can improvise well in the keys of G and C out of the open G tuning.  I also really like to improvise in a jam setting.  So if a capo will help me do that, I'm going to use the capo.