phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  05:42:06

Passing tones seem to be something very simple from a theoretical point of view but I struggle with their incorporation in my playing. My understanding is that passing tones can occupy anything from one to three quarter notes before a chord change (or even while staying on the same chord) and must end on a note of the chord played in the next measure.

Are all notes in the destination chord equally suitable? Assuming open-G tuning I can end on a D chord by e.g. playing:

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
--x-----0-------0------2--
-------------4---------------
-----------------------------

or

-----------------------------
-----------------------------
--x----0--------------------
-------------4---2---0-----
-----------------------------

Is there a way to end on the F# note?

And in general, is there a list of typical passing tone sequences somewhere? Apart from the two above (played forward or backward) I only routinely play the similar sequence for changing to and from the 4 chord:

------------------------------
------------------0---1------
--x---0----2----------------
------------------------------
------------------------------

Are there rules as to who in a jam or band plays passing tones and who doesn't? Is it the person that also plays the licks at the end of vocal phrases? I'm afraid I'm overdoing passing tones since I manage to play them at all.

cecil36 - Posted - 02/01/2021:  06:06:19

Eli Gilbert has a good bit on this in his backup lessons on line.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/01/2021:  06:39:26

A lot depends on the song and the tempo.

On slower songs you can give each note a beat and have a 3 note passing tone to the next chord. On faster tunes you may need to only have a couple of passing notes to get to the next chord.

As far as in a band situation, that depends on the band and the players and the way they want the song to sound. It's different with different bands. When my band was active, I was the main one who used the passing tones because the banjo was the instrument that took the most breaks (the guitar picker didn't flatpick or fingerpick and the mandolin player only took breaks on certain songs). Other bands might have different ideas and ways of doing passing tones.

In a jam situation, it's pretty much whatever you want to do in a backup situation, or it was in most of the jams I attended. Jams (in my area) are much less structured than in a band situation. It's just let's get together and pick, no rules on who must do what.

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  06:53:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by cecil36

Eli Gilbert has a good bit on this in his backup lessons on line.

---

Is this the one you are referring to?

youtube.com/watch?v=tlLrtS4yDW8

Having watched it I conclude that the chord you start from doesn't seem to play a role and the target note most frequently is the root note of the new chord. He uses a lot of chromatic transitions which so far are inexistant in my playing but should be even simpler than ordinary scale transitions.

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  07:06:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

A lot depends on the song and the tempo.



On slower songs you can give each note a beat and have a 3 note passing tone to the next chord. On faster tunes you may need to only have a couple of passing notes to get to the next chord.

Yes, I think all three-note transitions can be truncated to two or just one lone passing tone. Playing passing tones needs some thinking ahead which certainly gets more difficult the faster the song. 

As far as in a band situation, that depends on the band and the players and the way they want the song to sound. It's different with different bands. When my band was active, I was the main one who used the passing tones because the banjo was the instrument that took the most breaks (the guitar picker didn't flatpick or fingerpick and the mandolin player only took breaks on certain songs). Other bands might have different ideas and ways of doing passing tones.

In a band situation anything can be discussed and agreed beforehand but I thought there might be standard ways of dealing with passing tones which would also come handy if e.g. the singer introduces a new song in a rehearsal. A halfway competent bluegrass band should be able to play something on the first try and sound better than a jam with multiple instruments of the same kind.

In a jam situation, it's pretty much whatever you want to do in a backup situation, or it was in most of the jams I attended. Jams (in my area) are much less structured than in a band situation. It's just let's get together and pick, no rules on who must do what.

Don't tell me... :)

Our jam is totally unorganised but we have a lot of fun. But then there is this player with the tact of a steamroller, we have those 3rd and 4th guitars who are usually on the wrong chord, people that won't sing or lead a song (that includes me) and so on. Shortly before covid19 hit us, I reached out to some players at the jam to get a practice band going. We were going to have our first get-together the day I was diagnosed with covid so that didn't happen. Nonetheless, I am determined to get out of hibernation as a much better player.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  07:19:21

Using the root of the new chord as the "target" is always a safe bet, but really, you can use any note in the chord. Obviously, if you're playing the melody you'll use the melody note as your target. Or maybe you're not playing the melody, but you're planning to play a certain lick, so you need to lead into the first note of that lick. A nice way to land on the F# is D-E-F-F#.

As Sherry suggests, in a jam session you typically do whatever you want, and it'll usually be OK. (And if it clashes, well, a half-second later things will be OK again. That's how jam sessions are!) This is a very different situation from a band that rehearses together and works out arrangements.

I've been thinking about this recording lately. Listen to the guitar run that Dudley Connell plays toward the end of the instrumental unison passages. It's a standard run to get from a 1 chord to a 5 chord, but in this case it harmonizes perfectly with what the lead instruments are playing.

youtube.com/watch?v=TmadLrgILog

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/01/2021:  07:30:14

passing tones imo suggest traveling down or up so I figure my destination and source . I figure the tones in between do better, if they travel in the same correct direction . the variance of emphasis on each one can do wonders .I ask no one to agree or adopt my thinking.

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  08:47:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Using the root of the new chord as the "target" is always a safe bet, but really, you can use any note in the chord. Obviously, if you're playing the melody you'll use the melody note as your target.

I recently worked out a very simple break to "Banks of the Ohio" while I was playing along with a backing track for the song. A lot of the melody notes in my break really seem to be passing tones. My break consists of only those notes and then some forward-roll filler notes for the long melody notes. I guess you gotta start somewhere... But I actually like it and somehow can't drop any of those notes in favour of some lick or other more fancy stuff.

Or maybe you're not playing the melody, but you're planning to play a certain lick, so you need to lead into the first note of that lick. A nice way to land on the F# is D-E-F-F#.

OK, it is possible to land on the 3 note of the destination chord. It seems to produce less of an urge to end up on the new chord than leading to the root or 5 note of the new chord. At least that's my feeling.

I've been thinking about this recording lately. Listen to the guitar run that Dudley Connell plays toward the end of the instrumental unison passages. It's a standard run to get from a 1 chord to a 5 chord, but in this case it harmonizes perfectly with what the lead instruments are playing.



youtube.com/watch?v=TmadLrgILog

---

Are you referring to the part that sounds pretty much like this:

---------------9---10----------8-------------------------------------------

---8---10----------------8----------10-----8---------------8------------

-------------------------------------------------------8---9-----------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------10--

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It gives a very nice effect but I'm not sure which part is the run for a 1-5 transition (if this is the right spot).

Edited by - phb on 02/01/2021 08:47:55

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/01/2021:  08:52:19

I get this type of information from guitar instructionals, and apply what I can to the banjo. Bill Knopf's "Bluesgrass Banjo Workshop - Book 2" discusses this subject. Not an in depth discussion but enough to get someone started. I have lots of 5 string banjo books but I have never seen one that provided detail information on applying music theory to the 5 string.
Using the amount of activity in the BHO Theory Forum, one gets the impression this is not a "hot" item in the banjo world.

When a picker gets past the beginner stage, I recommend that Bill Knopf book/CDs.

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  08:53:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

passing tones imo suggest traveling down or up so I figure my destination and source . I figure the tones in between do better, if they travel in the same correct direction . the variance of emphasis on each one can do wonders .I ask no one to agree or adopt my thinking.

---

I wonder whether the starting chord really plays a role. It might if the starting note should be part of the starting chord but this doesn't seem to be the case.

As for traveling down or up, some passing tones also zig-zag like this for doing a G-D or 1-5 transition:

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

---0----------0-------2-----------

---------4--------------------------

-------------------------------------

This stuff may seem simple but at least I currently can't see the wood for all the trees.

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:04:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Hauser

Using the amount of activity in the BHO Theory Forum, one gets the impression this is not a "hot" item in the banjo world.

---

Well, one can sure fall into the trap of overthinking stuff. Also one can spend too much time on theory which would be better spent on practice. Personally I have recently been able to step-by-step add little basic elements to my playing, some of which I picked up from theory. It may not seem much to anyone but I get a lot of pleasure if I play to some familiar backing track and suddenly it appears to me that I can play a 4-2-0 run on the 4th string and then do it in the right place when nobody taught me to play a 4-2-0 run let alone in that exact place of this exact song (well, that's bluegrass, all the songs sound the same anyway... ;). 

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:09:14

There's also a concept in music called "contrary motion" in which two lines go in opposite directions, resolving on the same note or chord. These are a little tricky on banjo, but doable. I think contrary motion is usually used in longer melody/harmony lines, not just as passing notes. But to the extent that the notes played during the line will go outside the current underlying chord, I think they achieve the same purpose as passing notes: getting you from one chord to another

Philipp: To learn more about the theory of "passing notes" search Google for "voice leading."

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:25:26

I often get interested in the musical theory that is used to accomplish something. The problem is most instructionals, especially 5 string books, don't explain how to use things. One of my banjo instructionals for advanced players, writes the following -



"A augmented triad is made of 2 major 3rd intervals. The G Augmented triad (Gaug or G+) is G, B, and Db/ The intervals are both major 3rds (G to B, B to D#). The interval between F and D# is an augmented 5th, hence the name of the triad."



What you read above is all the book says about the subject. Not one word about application.

I was aware of that information before I got that book. As I said in earlier post, Bill Knopf's "Bluegrass Banjo Workshop - Book 2" does not say a lot about subjects like this, but at least he says much more than most banjo instructionals, and demonstrates how to apply what he teaches.

If I ever see a banjo instructional that provides in depth information on applying music theory, you can be sure I will purchase it.  



*** I am not connected in any way with Bill Knopf. My frequent comments about the one instructional reflect my opinions about its ability to educate a 5 string banjo player.

Edited by - Richard Hauser on 02/01/2021 09:28:59

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:27:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

Are you referring to the part that sounds pretty much like this:

---------------9---10----------8-------------------------------------------

---8---10----------------8----------10-----8---------------8------------

-------------------------------------------------------8---9-----------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------10--

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More accurately:

--------8---9--10----------8-----------------------------------------------------------------

---8--------------------8---------10-----8-------------------------8-------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------7--8---9---------8-ho-9------------

--------------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:29:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

Are you referring to the part that sounds pretty much like this:

---------------9---10----------8-------------------------------------------

---8---10----------------8----------10-----8---------------8------------

-------------------------------------------------------8---9-----------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------10--

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It gives a very nice effect but I'm not sure which part is the run for a 1-5 transition (if this is the right spot).

 

---

Yes, but the standard run I was referring to is not in the melody that the banjo, mandolin, and fiddle are playing. It's in the guitar part. And the 5 chord occurs just before that riff resolves to the C note at the end. Listen to the whole band instead of just the banjo and you'll hear it.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:32:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

I wonder whether the starting chord really plays a role. It might if the starting note should be part of the starting chord but this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

---

The very first note of the measure would be a note from whatever the chord  is at that point, but the starting note of the run (the second quarter-note of the measure, in your examples) need  not be a chord tone.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:36:42

I "think" better with standard musical notation that I do tab. I can visualize the flow of the music better, and hear the melody in head. That resulted from a lot of fiddle practice and playing. When I examine some things, I enter the tab using TablEdit, activate the standard notation option, then see how the notes are being used. I often discover a musical phrase appears to be more difficult than it actually is. Whenever I see documentation for melodic banjo playing, I want the standard notation as well as the tab.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:44:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

There's also a concept in music called "contrary motion" in which two lines go in opposite directions, resolving on the same note or chord. These are a little tricky on banjo, but doable. I think contrary motion is usually used in longer melody/harmony lines, not just as passing notes. But to the extent that the notes played during the line will go outside the current underlying chord, I think they achieve the same purpose as passing notes: getting you from one chord to another

Philipp: To learn more about the theory of "passing notes" search Google for "voice leading."

---

Here's a classic example of contrary motion in bluegrass: going from a G chord to a D chord (in the key of G) the banjo's run descends F-E-Eb-D while the guitar's run ascends B-C-C#-D. It's very satisfying and not at all uncommon, but I'm having trouble finding an example of it on YouTube. (The guitar run is the same one I pointed out in "Duncan and Brady" earlier on this thread.)

phb - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:45:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Yes, but the standard run I was referring to is not in the melody that the banjo, mandolin, and fiddle are playing. It's in the guitar part. And the 5 chord occurs just before that riff resolves to the C note at the end. Listen to the whole band instead of just the banjo and you'll hear it.

---

The guitar seems to play along with the bold notes here, right?

--------8---9--10----------8-----------------------------------------------------------------

---8--------------------8---------10-----8-------------------------8-------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------7--8---9---------8-ho-9------------

--------------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does it play the same notes?

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/01/2021:  09:55:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Here's a classic example of contrary motion in bluegrass: going from a G chord to a D chord (in the key of G) the banjo's run descends F-E-Eb-D while the guitar's run ascends B-C-C#-D. 

---

Excellent example, of course. And contrary motion is easy when the lines are being played by two different instruments.

The "tricky" execution I was referring to is playing both the ascending and descending lines on the same instrument. It can be done. I have an example or two in lessons or tabs from Tony Trischka's school, but can't for the life of me remember what songs they're in.  (I know it's from Tony because that's where I heard the term contrary motion)  It may have been in one of his video responses in which he demonstrates an alternative that's not tabbed out.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  10:41:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Yes, but the standard run I was referring to is not in the melody that the banjo, mandolin, and fiddle are playing. It's in the guitar part. And the 5 chord occurs just before that riff resolves to the C note at the end. Listen to the whole band instead of just the banjo and you'll hear it.

---

The guitar seems to play along with the bold notes here, right?

--------8---9--10----------8-----------------------------------------------------------------

---8--------------------8---------10-----8-------------------------8-------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------7--8---9---------8-ho-9------------

--------------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does it play the same notes?

 

---

That's the place, but the guitar plays different notes: E-F-F#.

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/01/2021:  10:46:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

passing tones imo suggest traveling down or up so I figure my destination and source . I figure the tones in between do better, if they travel in the same correct direction . the variance of emphasis on each one can do wonders .I ask no one to agree or adopt my thinking.

---

I wonder whether the starting chord really plays a role. It might if the starting note should be part of the starting chord but this doesn't seem to be the case.

As for traveling down or up, some passing tones also zig-zag like this for doing a G-D or 1-5 transition:

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

---0----------0-------2-----------

---------4--------------------------

-------------------------------------

This stuff may seem simple but at least I currently can't see the wood for all the trees.

 

---

My opinion again  not that I ask for seconds, a passing  tone leads from point A to point B ,It is leading the listener. As far as your example I can't say for sure ,if the fsharp  is 16 th and all others were 8ths you could add a B 8th note  on up a whole tone . The walk up would bring you ready to step on C.

So much could be going on with the rest of the music that it would be impossible to dictate much  general,in few words. The starting place was something that as you say, really does not matter  ---since that has been already played , I  just have to make a music statement in the given time ,that carries the listener to the new place. Earl's walk ups and walk downs  are great.

Here is another 2 cents .scales carry you quickly,,chords float you along. I would start my run  by,chugging along on the current chord  on the beat  right before the phrase   ,then I would start stomping towards my destination.

Edited by - Tractor1 on 02/01/2021 11:03:49

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/01/2021:  11:24:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

 

--------8---9--10----------8-----------------------------------------------------------------

---8--------------------8---------10-----8-------------------------8-------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------7--8---9---------8-ho-9------------

--------------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

I don't hear this as an example of "passing" notes leading from chord to another or as filler leading from from one melody note to another.  Rather, I hear this as a melody complete unto itself. Seems to me the entire phrase is or can be played against a single chord.

I could be wrong.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/01/2021:  12:31:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by phb

 

--------8---9--10----------8-----------------------------------------------------------------

---8--------------------8---------10-----8-------------------------8-------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------7--8---9---------8-ho-9------------

--------------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------10------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

I don't hear this as an example of "passing" notes leading from chord to another or as filler leading from from one melody note to another.  Rather, I hear this as a melody complete unto itself. Seems to me the entire phrase is or can be played against a single chord.

I could be wrong.

---

You're right. By itself this melody line is ambiguous. I brought it up to focus attention on what the guitar was doing (not included in this tab) while the other instruments were playing this line. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/01/2021:  13:31:44

This is the chart I use to teach bass players to walk thru the chord changes. It shows them 3 modes to accomplish this, Mpenta, mPenta and chromatic. Once they get the idea of how it works I go over some of the missing walks, having them figure out the possibilities, then I know they have it. It applies to all instruments.

 

aintbrokejustbadlybent - Posted - 02/01/2021:  16:41:43

mmuussiiccaall

Hey Rick,
I’m interested in your chart but I’m a bit confused. Could you amplify your explanation please.
Mike

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/01/2021:  22:16:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by aintbrokejustbadlybent

mmuussiiccaall



Hey Rick,

I’m interested in your chart but I’m a bit confused. Could you amplify your explanation please.

Mike

---

I'll put some more up about it tomorrow.

phb - Posted - 02/02/2021:  00:30:58

The chart is very interesting and surely contains more information than I'll ever be able to implement. I have printed it on paper and the first thing I noticed is that you have some "zig-zag" passing tone patterns there (e.g. 1-3-b3-3 for a I-IV transition). I wasn't sure whether my above 1-7-1-2 example for a I-V transition was really a proper example of passing tones and not just a melodic pattern I have heard so often that to me they have assumed the function of passing tones. But then this differentiation probably doesn't make much sense anyway. Interestingly the 1-7-1-2 transition doesn't appear in your chart. Is that because it doesn't end on the root note?