finger-picker - Posted - 01/28/2021:  07:37:16

Curious how one could go about moving an entire phrase, such as a second repeat on a song, up an octave or up to a higher pitch across the board, e.g. the G/C/D notes at Open/2/4 go up to 9/10/12 or 12/14/16? Is it just a matter of moving Root positions to their first inversions, second inversions, or next octave roots, etc.?

This is probably a can of worms type question but I just wanted to get the basics down at least.

phb - Posted - 01/28/2021:  07:45:59

In my understanding you move up an octave because otherwise melodies are not preserved completely. However, you usually do not move up 12 frets because this would sound boring but to a position in between (the inversions you mention), most commonly centered around the G note on the 2nd string/8th fret. Most of your melody notes are still there but on a different string. This means that the filler notes around the melody notes will automatically be different from what they are in the low frets when playing that same melody. Since you now lack the notes that in the low frets are on the 1st string, you need to change positions more often such as moving up to the zone around the 12th fret for part of the melody.

Generally up-the-neck melody notes are usually played on the 1st and 2nd strings so that you will have to change positions more than in the low position where you pick melody notes on all four strings.

Edited by - phb on 01/28/2021 07:47:27

KCJones - Posted - 01/28/2021:  08:05:18

I highly recommend going through John Bouldings series on pentatonic scales. It isn't directly about your question, but he will answer it. Practicing the song 'Fireball Mail' is a great demonstration of what you're referring to, because the melody basically follows the G pentatonic and goes up and down the neck.



As Philipp says, the most common way to do this is to go to a different inversion and move up the neck. So you might play a phrase from open (barre position), then the same phrase with the root at fret 8 (D position), and then finish it with a phrase at fret 5 (F position). It's the same phrase, but you're moving it around for variety. 

You can also do the same thing in different keys. As long as you keep the same the intervals, the melody will remain intact. For example, instead of thinking about a phrase as G-A->B-D-G (tag lick), think about it as 1-2->3-5-1. Then you can move it to any key you want. Sometimes when songs have a key change, you'll repeat phrases in different keys using the different inversions.



John Boulding Pentatonic Series, part 1: youtube.com/watch?v=ZMe0krMT9Gs 

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/28/2021:  08:27:38

Lots of times on a second break to a song, one will go up the neck and use minor chords in the place of major ones and will use more licks than melody notes, although staying within the key/chord combination and at least trying to keep the melody where people can hear parts of it.

You can move something from the first 5 frets up to the next group that will have the same chords; i.e., move from the GCD down the neck to those starting with the G at 7, 8, 9, C at 10, 11, 12 and so on. You'll have to figure out where your melody notes are within those 3 or 4 finger chords, but with a little noodling and a little understanding of scales, that's fairly easy to do.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/28/2021:  10:21:46

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

Curious how one could go about moving an entire phrase, such as a second repeat on a song, up an octave or up to a higher pitch across the board, e.g. the G/C/D notes at Open/2/4 go up to 9/10/12 or 12/14/16? Is it just a matter of moving Root positions to their first inversions, second inversions, or next octave roots, etc.?

---

Only rarely are you moving an exact note-for-note phrase to a higher location, even when you go up 12 frets (full octave). The open 5th string is just one problem. If you don't mind the 5th string still being at its original pitch, then up and down phrases based on Osborne roll (or Dillard roll) -- 1-2-1-5 -- work all over the neck. The first and second strings are fretted in 2-note partials, each capable of representing multiple chords depending on the need at any moment. Osborne roll provides a relatively easy way to play advanced sounding phrases above the 12th fret.

There may be other ways of moving a particular sound to a higher fret. This is the first occurs to me.

But in general, I believe that banjo players look at each chord inversion and location on the neck as offering its own musical possibilities. We look at these alternative shapes and positions for variation, not replication.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/28/2021:  10:24:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Lots of times on a second break to a song, one will go up the neck and use minor chords in the place of major ones and will use more licks than melody notes . . .

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Good point.

I think of it as scat singing on the banjo.

thisoldman - Posted - 01/28/2021:  12:13:24

Here are some  lessons on UTN improv from Gina Furtado that might give you some ideas. 

finger-picker - Posted - 01/28/2021:  15:51:45

Just for clarification, I’m asking more for a baroque/Bach piece, one of his minuets. This would be less roll intensive/more melodic in nature right? I’ve heard people do the minuets in different pitches and/or keys on their repeats but the piece I’m working out of in tab doesn’t offer such so I’d like to create my own if it’s not too hard.

If I switched key from, say G, are there certain keys that would sound better? Put another way, is there a formula or princicple to calculate switching from X to Y key?

banjoak - Posted - 01/28/2021:  17:16:47

Not exactly sure what you are asking.

To transpose a phrase to actually change keys, as in playing a tune/song in G, then pushing it up to the key of A. (common arrangement technique, heard in pop songs for final verse/chorus) Pretty straightforward, everything (melody, chords) just moves up in linear fashion.

The other concept is not changing keys (or chord changes)... to which it usually doesn't really work to simply play the same exact melody in a different key than the chords. Rather involves taking ideas of melodic phrasing and/or contour but from a different harmonic spot; or as mentioned different inversion of chord tones. While similar phrase contour, and mostly moving from chord tone to chord tone strong notes/anchor points, with weaker as fill in between; but linear steps spacing typically needs to be altered to fit. 

It can be useful to explore and grasp how one works out vocal harmony parts... as it can be similar concepts. 

Edited by - banjoak on 01/28/2021 17:18:49

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/28/2021:  17:37:52

Seems like you're asking about range

youtube.com/watch?v=WUl0N5_ccaQ

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/28/2021:  19:16:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by dan_the_man

Just for clarification, I’m asking more for a baroque/Bach piece, one of his minuets. This would be less roll intensive/more melodic in nature right?

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That would depend on the piece, key, tuning and player.  I have two of John Bullard's books of classical pieces for banjo and there's a lot of closed position single string work in there. So if you work out a piece to eliminate open strings, you can move the resulting fingering anywhere on the neck, so long as you don't run out of frets.

As to any rule or formula for changing keys or which key sounds best . . . I never heard of any. But my theory knowledge is pretty shallow.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2021:  04:43:51

Get familiar with the Nashville Numbering System. You can take any song and convert the chords/notes quickly and easily. It would take up too much space here to give you instructions on how to use it, but with a little studying, you'll find it is easy to do. I guess you could try to Google it or use some other search engine to find information.



I use it all the time when I'm learning a new song. I figure out the song from a CD or video or whatever, then use the NNS to change it from, say the key of G to the key of E. Takes about 2 minutes once you're familiar with it. That's for chords, not notes. Notes will work the same only it takes a little longer to do the transposition.

EDITED to add:  you can also capo up to change from say the key of G to A, B, Bb and C, still using the same chords/notes/frets.  Then you can use either the key of D and D chords; D, G, A and capo up and play out of C, D, E and F.  Or, use the key of C and C chords;  C, F, G and capo up and play in D, E, F.

In other words, there's more than one way to change keys/chords/ sounds.

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 01/29/2021 04:46:10

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2021:  07:10:01

If you want to hear how to play a break down the neck and then variations for middle of the neck and up the neck, melody and noodling around, go here: banjohangout.org/topic/372228 and listen to Pat Cloud. Fantastic!

250gibson - Posted - 01/29/2021:  10:29:38

I think you are talking about modulation, which is a change from the original key to another. The easiest way is to use pivot chords which have a certain harmonic function in the original key and also the modulated key. Not sure of what what tune you are working on, but if it starts on the I and ends in a V-I perfect cadence, the most natural modulation would be to the IV. This V-I in the original key becomes a II-V in the new key and resolves in a perfect cadence to the new key.



Example:



G......................ending measures of D to G and back to the top again to G

I........................................................... V .....I..................................................... I Key of G



Could become:



G.....................ending measures of D to G now modulates to the top to C

I ..........................................................V ......I ...........................................................Key of G

............................................................II .....V .....................................................I      Key of C

Edited by - 250gibson on 01/29/2021 10:33:44

Good Buddy - Posted - 01/29/2021:  11:01:24

A simple way to change keys and figure out relative notes is to use the circle of 5ths. Know the key you're in, pick the key you want to be in. Count left or right on the Circle and use that number to count in the same direction for each new note. The easiest way is to become familiar with the fingerboard and intervals. Doing this will become second nature when you understand where notes are and their relationship from string to string.

finger-picker - Posted - 01/29/2021:  15:36:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by 250gibson

I think you are talking about modulation, which is a change from the original key to another. The easiest way is to use pivot chords which have a certain harmonic function in the original key and also the modulated key. Not sure of what what tune you are working on, but if it starts on the I and ends in a V-I perfect cadence, the most natural modulation would be to the IV. This V-I in the original key becomes a II-V in the new key and resolves in a perfect cadence to the new key.



Example:



G......................ending measures of D to G and back to the top again to G

I........................................................... V .....I..................................................... I Key of G



Could become:



G.....................ending measures of D to G now modulates to the top to C

I ..........................................................V ......I ...........................................................Key of G

............................................................II .....V .....................................................I      Key of C

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Not sure what I'm talking about exactly, lol. I thought that maybe changing to a different key might sound good on a second repeat of a classical song, or maybe just moving up the neck in the same key. I'm working on Bach's Minuet BWV 114 in G Major from the Hal Leanord's Bach for Banjo booklet.

It looks like the chord progression for the first phrase is I-IV-I-V-I-V-I-IV-I-V-I-V-I. 

Any advice to work on an up the neck repeat would be most appreciated. 

banjoak - Posted - 01/29/2021:  20:03:39

Taking a melody; played in G, then on later repeat of the melody; "transposing" it to a different key...same the melody but in a different key, (say up a whole step to A, 2 frets), just move everything; every melody note and chord up by the same amount (a whole step, 2 frets). Can just count up how many half/whole steps (or frets).

The other up the neck concept keeps the tune in the key of G, but changes the melody, uses different melodic notes/intervals. This is what you often hear folks doing in taking breaks in tunes. Probably wouldn't do that on Bach piece, unless perhaps as some jazz improvisation?

Edited by - banjoak on 01/29/2021 20:10:23