finger-picker - Posted - 01/16/2021:  17:07:20

I've been learning each note on the fret board using the major triads in Barre/2nd Inversion position for strings 3-2-1 (open G-B-D, 1st G#-C-D#, 2nd A-C#-E, etc.). When it came to notes that were sharp or flat, I've focused just on the sharps, even triads that didn't have a major key counterpart e.g. G#, A#, D#, etc. As I turn my attention to flats, I'm running into the problem of identifying where they are for each Barre/2nd Inversion position.

1. Would all the relevant flat major triads match all the flat keys?
   
   
   
   • F @ 10th/20th frets
   
   
   • Bb @ 3rd/15th frets
   
   
   • Eb @ 8th/20th frets
   
   
   • Ab @ 1st/13th frets
   
   
   • Db @ 6th/18th frets
   
   
   • Gb @ 11th fret
   
   
   • Cb @ 4th/16th frets
   
   
   
   


2. If that's the case, is there any point to keeping the major triads in their sharp counterparts memorized, e.g. D# @ 8th/20th frets (3-2-1: D#-G-A#)? (I imagine it would be helpful to know where D# and A# are if playing in the key of B or F#, so I'm thinking yes.)


3. Similarly, is it useful to know that, for instance, the barre major triad A at 2nd Fret A-C#-E could also be described as A-Db-E? Or should only the Db vs. C# be kept in distinction? 


4. How is the relationship described between major triads that aren't correlated to a major key (e.g. D# triad to the Key of Eb -OR- the fact that the D# triad doesn't have a corresponding D# major key)? 

Out of convenience here are my notes on keys: 

C Major: C D E F G A B (C) - No sharps or flats

Sharp Keys:

1. G Major: G A B C D E F# (G) - 1 sharp


2. D Major: D E F# G A B C# (D) - 2 sharps


3. A Major: A B C# D E F# G# (A) - 3 sharps


4. E Major: E F# G# A B C# D# (E) - 4 sharps


5. B Major: B C# D# E F# G# A# (B) - 5 sharps


6. F# Major: F# G# A# B C# D# E# (F#) - 6 sharps


7. C# Major: C# D# E# F# G# A# B# (C#) - 7 sharps

Flat Keys:

1. F Major: F G A Bb C D E (F) - 1 flat


2. Bb Major: Bb C D Eb F G A (Bb) - 2 flats


3. Eb Major: Eb F G Ab Bb C D (Eb) - 3 flats


4. Ab Major: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G (Ab) - 4 flats


5. Db Major: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C (Db) - 5 flats


6. Gb Major: Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (Gb) - 6 flats


7. Cb Major: Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb (Cb) - 7 flats

Edited by - finger-picker on 01/16/2021 17:13:45

pearcemusic - Posted - 01/16/2021:  18:51:33

Not sure how deep you want to dig. Here's a link to my YouTube course called Harmony & Improvisation. It's also a podcast by the same name. Currently 30 odd episodes are posted that should help you. 

Harm and Improv ep 1

finger-picker - Posted - 01/16/2021:  19:01:34

quote:

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Originally posted by pearcemusic

Not sure how deep you want to dig. Here's a link to my YouTube course called Harmony & Improvisation. It's also a podcast by the same name. Currently 30 odd episodes are posted that should help you. 

Harm and Improv ep 1

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Lol. I may look through everything at some point but would be more interested in the answers to my immediate questions for now. 

pearcemusic - Posted - 01/16/2021:  19:17:31

Then the major triads always get spelled with notes from the key. I.e. not C#FG# but C#E#G#.
If you memorize correct major triad spelling and know where the root note is located on the G string, then u automatically know the names of the other triad notes.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/16/2021:  19:43:24

You will not find a key signature with seven sharps or seven flats. C# major would be Db major in standard notation; Cb major would be B major.

finger-picker - Posted - 01/17/2021:  05:55:25

OK so major triads relate to the keys they're associated with starting with the root of the triad and notes like D# and G# are only relevant to keys that contain them but that may not necessarily fall in a major third pattern within the key. Does that sound right?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/17/2021:  06:33:19

If you want to read standard notation this path will pay dividends. If you want to play by ear you can use this same knowledge to find the roots and that will show where the other intervals are. Interval skills will help you to pinpoint the hard to find the notes in riffs and melodies.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/17/2021:  07:22:40

This is of course a continuation of the discussion on your other thread. And as was the case there, you're discussing three related but distinct things: 1) keys, 2) triads, and 3) individual notes.



As for keys, I'd say there's not too much point in thinking too much about some of those perverse keys that require double sharps or double flats, or that are simpler when called by different names (e.g., Db instead of the thornier C#).

 

But it is important to learn both names for triads, for exactly the reason you suggest: the different names will each make more musical sense in different contexts.  ("I imagine it would be helpful to know where D# and A# are if playing in the key of B or F#, so I'm thinking yes.")

But when you're naming individual notes, well, it's important to know the two names for each sharp/flat note BUT there's no point in thinking of that C# in the A major triad as possibly being a Db. In fact, I'd say not only is there no point in thinking of that note that way; it actually muddies the waters, as discussed on your other thread. In the context of that triad, it's C#--end of discussion. 



If you're considering the note in the abstract, yes, it's both C# and Db. But as soon as you put it into a particular musical context--a scale, a chord, or the like--it becomes one or the other. I suppose this is kind of like the particle/wave issue in physics. The electron appears to be a probability wave smeared out over its entire orbit, until you try to pinpoint its exact location; then it presents itself as a particle. (Disclaimer: I'm just a simple banjo picker. If any of you is actually a physicist, please feel free to correct me here; no hard feelings!)

finger-picker - Posted - 01/17/2021:  13:19:43

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

If you want to read standard notation this path will pay dividends. If you want to play by ear you can use this same knowledge to find the roots and that will show where the other intervals are. Interval skills will help you to pinpoint the hard to find the notes in riffs and melodies.

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I've thought about the practicality in both contexts so yes, thanks for the affirmation 

finger-picker - Posted - 01/17/2021:  13:23:58

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

As for keys, I'd say there's not too much point in thinking too much about some of those perverse keys that require double sharps or double flats, or that are simpler when called by different names (e.g., Db instead of the thornier C#).

But it is important to learn both names for triads, for exactly the reason you suggest: the different names will each make more musical sense in different contexts.  ("I imagine it would be helpful to know where D# and A# are if playing in the key of B or F#, so I'm thinking yes.")

But when you're naming individual notes, well, it's important to know the two names for each sharp/flat note BUT there's no point in thinking of that C# in the A major triad as possibly being a Db. In fact, I'd say not only is there no point in thinking of that note that way; it actually muddies the waters, as discussed on your other thread. In the context of that triad, it's C#--end of discussion. 



If you're considering the note in the abstract, yes, it's both C# and Db. But as soon as you put it into a particular musical context--a scale, a chord, or the like--it becomes one or the other. I suppose this is kind of like the particle/wave issue in physics. The electron appears to be a probability wave smeared out over its entire orbit, until you try to pinpoint its exact location; then it presents itself as a particle. (Disclaimer: I'm just a simple banjo picker. If any of you is actually a physicist, please feel free to correct me here; no hard feelings!)

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Ha, maybe I should of posted the questions in that thread instead, though I appreciate you patiently answering them anyway. What you said makes a lot of sense and I think all quandaries have been cleared up except for wth you're talking about with electrons :)

Richard Hauser - Posted - 02/10/2021:  09:00:24

If it is still available, get the music theory book "Edly's Music Theory For Practical People". It will provides answers to many questions. And as far as the banjo goes, stop thinking "Always".  The more I learn, the more questions I have - especially on application.  I once asked a banjo player with a music degree from Texas A&M if he would provide music lessons that would provide answers to my questions.  He declined.  But I keep looking.

Edited by - Richard Hauser on 02/10/2021 09:06:52

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/10/2021:  18:05:56

All I ever think about somewhat when playing banjo is the key , the scale of that key, and the chords in that key. Sometimes using the Nashville number system. I don’t find playing bluegrass that I need any more than that. If I was a classical composer or jazz improviser I’d have to delve into the theory more deeply, but I don’t have any desire to o that route with music.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/11/2021:  05:28:28

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

All I ever think about somewhat when playing banjo is the key , the scale of that key, and the chords in that key. Sometimes using the Nashville number system. I don’t find playing bluegrass that I need any more than that. If I was a classical composer or jazz improviser I’d have to delve into the theory more deeply, but I don’t have any desire to o that route with music.

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Yep whether they know it or not, in order to play a piece of music by ear they find the tonal center (key note) and then they use the intervals related to that pitch. All you have to know is the "flavor" of each interval either by playing ump-teen years or actual study of theory.

aintbrokejustbadlybent - Posted - 02/11/2021:  06:36:18

mmuussiiccaall
Rick, I’m curious if you can describe the “flavor “ of intervals?