dan_the_man - Posted - 10/09/2020:  17:50:22

I just learned Whiskey Before Breakfast in G tuning but as I understand it is in the key of D. This is a new concept for me because for other songs like Home Sweet Home and John Henry I change the tuning to D. So what makes this song in the key of D, or for that matter what makes any song in the Key of ‘X’ - is it the dominant chord in the song or some other determinant?



Thanks

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 10/10/2020 04:40:54

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 10/09/2020:  18:46:49

it’s traditionally in the key of D but if your first chord is G then you’ve learned it in The key of G

the key can usually ,but not always ,be determined by the first chord.

KCJones - Posted - 10/09/2020:  18:54:28

The key is determined by the notes (and chords) in the scale.



D major scale is DEF#GABC#. Generally the chords will be D, G, A, Bm. Other chords include Em, F#m, C#dim.



G major scale is GABCDEF#. Common chords will be G, C, D, Em. Other chords may include Am, Bm, F#dim.

Any key can (generally) be played from any tuning. The tuning affects the scale patterns and chord shapes but doesn't change which notes are in a particular key it just changes where they are on the fretboard.

This is a very general overview, and I'm sure others could provide a better explanation. I have a rudimentary working knowledge of theory, no formal music education. 

Edited by - KCJones on 10/09/2020 19:03:36

Banjfoot - Posted - 10/09/2020:  20:23:59

One simple way to think about the key (and it's not wrong)...it has to with the "home chord" of a song or composition. This can be described as the chord you "arrive at," the chord which is most "final"; it's where the music "goes home." The last chord you play in Whiskey Before Breakfast is D; when you play that chord, it has that feeling of "finality," of "getting home."

In G tuning, it is possible to play a song in any key. Example... Mary Had a Little Lamb is a song that starts and ends with the same chord. So you can, for example, play Mary Had a Little Lamb starting with a G and ending with a G chord (you played it in the key of G); or starting on a D and ending with a D chord (you played it in the key of D); or starting with a C and ending with a C chord (you played it in the key of C)...and so on...

If you look this topic up online, you can get a lot of information about this concept. Compositions sometimes get real complicated. Even a Beethoven symphony, for example, is said to be in a given key, even though it modulates to other keys in many places...

Good Buddy - Posted - 10/09/2020:  20:28:16

This is a music theory question and I am sure it will be moved to that forum soon. Firstly, when you use G tuning, you can play in any key you want. When you play in Open C tuning, you can play in any key you want. When you play in X tuning, you can play in any key you want. Some songs and tunes can be made "easier" to play if you use a certain traditional tuning, but you can use whichever tuning you are most familiar with and still be able to play the same song convincingly. The licks you use may have to change though.

So, no matter what tuning you use, a G chord will always be made of the G, B and D notes, although their position on the neck will probably change.

What makes a song in a certain key. There is a concept of a "tonal center," that each melody will have some point that the melody revolves around. The song will usually end on that note, or it may not. The Dominant 7 chord may help you decide which key you are in, but not always.

I could go on for days, but you will get bored if you're not already. If you are interested, you should read some theory books. Good luck.

pfalzgrass - Posted - 10/09/2020:  21:42:12

When playing a song in D while in G-tuning, I generally capo the 5th string to A to have good sounding rolls.

Another concept often used is to put a capo on the second fret ( A-tuning), to play a song in D out of the C-position. So when fretting a C-chord it is in real a D-chord due to the capo on the second fret.

Edited by - pfalzgrass on 10/09/2020 21:47:58

Texasbanjo - Posted - 10/10/2020:  04:46:08

When you're playing out of open G tuning and the song is in the key of D, you will be using the D chords in the song: i.e., D, G, A, are the 3 major chords used. You don't have to retune the banjo, just use the correct chords and correct scale notes.

stanleytone - Posted - 10/10/2020:  04:51:24

youtu.be/IYMJyjaOiPY
Check this out

Fathand - Posted - 10/10/2020:  05:22:51

quote:

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Originally posted by Ks_5-picker

the key can usually ,but not always ,be determined by the first chord.

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The key can more often be determined by the last chord/note but not always.

Fathand - Posted - 10/10/2020:  05:33:23

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

So what makes this song in the key of D, or for that matter what makes any song in the Key of ‘X’ - is it the dominant chord in the song or some other determinant?



Thanks

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A song will most often resolve to the chord/note of it's key. Notice how a song feels complete or finished when you get there.

Songs can be performed in any key but many songs have customary keys often arrived at by ease of playing on an instrument or ease of singing by a vocalist who made it popular. Notice that many fiddle tunes are in A or D and banjo tunes in G or C because those are easy keys to play on those instruments. Of course a composer could write a tune in a difficult key e.g. Limehouse Blues in G#.

dan_the_man - Posted - 10/10/2020:  06:27:04

Thanks a lot that clears things up, especially the ending chord bit and also knowing I can play any key in any tuning

Owen - Posted - 10/10/2020:  06:32:31

I think most of the confusion stems from [some] people, in their conversation and/or instruction, using chord and key as if they are the same thing.     As often as not those guys that are w-a-y closer to the top of the heap than the bottom.   [Fwiw, that's just the observation of somebody from the latter group.]

Old Hickory - Posted - 10/10/2020:  06:50:27

quote:

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Originally posted by Fathand

quote:

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Originally posted by Ks_5-picker

the key can usually ,but not always ,be determined by the first chord.

---

The key can more often be determined by the last chord/note but not always.

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Yes! Much more often than the first chord.

Plenty of songs start on the 4 or 5 chord.

Fathand - Posted - 10/10/2020:  07:28:14

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Fathand

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ks_5-picker

the key can usually ,but not always ,be determined by the first chord.

---

The key can more often be determined by the last chord/note but not always.

---

Yes! Much more often than the first chord.

Plenty of songs start on the 4 or 5 chord.

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The only unbroken rule I have found in music is that all the rules get broken eventually.

Old Hickory - Posted - 10/10/2020:  10:12:56

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

This is a very general overview, and I'm sure others could provide a better explanation. I have a rudimentary working knowledge of theory, no formal music education. 

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I think it's a great explanation for the presumed level of the member asking the question. Since my own understanding is not too deep, I'm always afraid of simplifying to the point of inaccuracy. And using too many words in the process. 

Banjfoot and Good Buddy also gave good simple answers, directly addressing Dan's point of confusion.

The most important take-aways from this discussion so far:

- Banjo is a musical instrument that can be used to play in any key in any tuning

- Tuning of the banjo and key of a song are two different things; Tuning does not necessarily determine key

- Achieving a certain sound is an important reason for changing tuning (such as dropping the 4th string to C so that you get that low root note C for songs in the key of C); This may contribute to the confusion of tuning and key since, in this example, a reason for going to some type of C tuning is in fact to play a song in C

- But ease of playing in a desired key is an important reason for choosing any particular tuning

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/10/2020:  10:53:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Owen

I think most of the confusion stems from [some] people, in their conversation and/or instruction, using chord and key as if they are the same thing.     As often as not those guys that are w-a-y closer to the top of the heap than the bottom.   [Fwiw, that's just the observation of somebody from the latter group.]

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Yeah, that's hardcore bluegrass lingo. For example, "Let's capo up and do a few tunes in B-chord."