dan_the_man - Posted - 07/25/2020:  04:26:10

I’ve been learning a song in key of B and apparently the chord shapes stay the same as in open G, albeit 4 frets up the neck. I was looking at the C chord, for instance, which is 02021 (5-1 string fret positions) and the notes that it frets in key of B are completely different than open G.

Is there an explanation for this, preferably in layman’s terms?

Thanks

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/25/2020:  04:56:04

The way it was explained to me, it's the way the banjo is tune in open G. You have 4 strings, the 1st and 4th strings are the ROOT note of whatever chord you're playing. The 2nd and 3rd strings are the 3rd and 5th notes (according to where you put your fingers) of the chord, so you can move the chord anywhere up and down the neck. Note: This is for major chords.

As far as the C being different in open G, there are 2 major fingerings for major chords and the C chord is actually a 2nd position or "D" position chord, not a 1st or "F" position chord (like the closed G chord). So, make your major 4 finger D chord and move it down a fret and you'll have a C chord. Can't move it down because of the nut? Well, think of the nut as finger that would fret that note. Make sense?

banjoy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  05:31:24

(To correct your typo, C is 02012, not 02021)...



What you are referring to is changing the "key" a tune is in by using a capo.



For purposes of explaining, consider the capo the same as the "nut." Without a capo, the open strings (when strummed without fretting at all) form a G chord. So, the banjo is naturally in the key of G, and 02012 forms a C chord when played in open tuning. But it is called a "C" only because of the key you're in and where the capo is or isn't.



When you use a capo, you are moving the position of the nut which also changes the key the open banjo is in. So when you place the capo at the 2nd fret, the open chord is an A chord. When on the 4th fret, the open banjo is a B chord. The only thing that changed is where the capo is, but that act has changed the key, too, and the names of all the other chords fingerings you are already used to.

The fingerings relationships remain the same, but they now have a new named based on the key you are in (where the capo is). So, when you form 02012 capoed to the 2nd fret, you are not playing C anymore. You're now playing a D chord. Capoed to the 4th fret, the exact same fingering 02012 forms and E chord. Yet, the fingerings are identical.



Any more explanation from me and I may be muddying the issue for you. I hope this makes sense, and I hope others chime in too to help explain the relationship of capo to key.

Edited by - banjoy on 07/25/2020 05:41:01

Greg Denton - Posted - 07/25/2020:  05:47:30

Play your 1st string open D. Then play the same note "D" on the 3rd fret of the second string. Notice there's a space of 2 frets between the notes (OPEN | 1st fret | 2nd fret | 3RD FRET).

Now play the same note "D" on the 7th fret of the third string. Notice there's a space of 3 frets between it and the "D" on the second string. (3RD FRET |4th fret | 5th fret | 6th fret | 7TH FRET)

Now play the same note "D" on the 12th fret of the 4th string. Notice there's a space of 4 frets between it and the "D" on the third string. (7TH FRET | 8th fret | 9th fret | 10th fret | 11th fret | 12TH FRET)

Now do the same exercise starting with the "E" note on the 2nd fret of the 1st string. You'll find that the next instance of the same note as you move across the strings keeps the same relationship. (First string/2nd fret - skip two frets - Second string/7th fret - skip three frets - Thirds string/ 9th fret - skip four frets - Fourth string/ 14th fret).

The relationships stay the same wherever you start because the tuning relationships between the strings stays the same.
When you put a capo on the neck of your banjo, you're just shortening the strings (but not their relative tuning) - so all the chord shapes and relationships between notes stays the same - even though the notes themselves have different names.

Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do - is the same Major Scale no matter what note you start on.

BobbyE - Posted - 07/25/2020:  06:13:06

Because the banjo, or any stringed instrument that is tuned to a standard pitch,  is 'relative to itself as you progress up the neck. By progressing up the neck, I mean you are simply changing keys from one key to the next 'relative,' key. That is, the key that is the next 1/2 step, or full step, above the key. Or something like that. 



Bobby

Edited by - BobbyE on 07/25/2020 06:14:39

Brian Murphy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  06:46:21

Another way of looking at is that the notes don't change because you use a capo. A G note is still a G note, and a B note is still a B note, and they are still in exactly the same place. (With a capo you are just eliminating some of the notes available (the ones at or below the capo). So the same notes still make the same chords and they are stand in the same relationship to each other. The capo is irrelevant as to chord shapes.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/25/2020:  07:38:21

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

Is there an explanation for this, preferably in layman’s terms?

---

If you keep the banjo in one tuning, the relationships of the strings stay the same regardless of whether the strings are open or capoed.  (This assumes that you also capo the 5th string rather than tune it higher.)

You know your G, C and D chords. In G tuning open with no capo, those are the 1, 4 and 5 chords in the key of G.  

Now put a capo at 4 (and capo or spike the 5th string 4 frets up at 9).  As you noted in your opening message, an open chord with no strings fretted is now a B. That's the 1 chord in the key of B.  Because the capo has not changed the relationships of the strings to each other, you can make a C chord shape and it will be the 4 chord of the key of B.  You can make a D chord shape and it will be the 5 chord of B. The underlying notes can change, but chord shapes still sound chords because the relationships of the strings to each other has not changed.

What do I mean by the relationships of the strings are the same? The strings are the same "intervals" (musical distance) apart.  The interval from the open 4th string to the open 3rd string (D to G) is a perfect 4th whether the fretboard is open or capoed anywhere.  The open 3rd string to open 2nd string (G to B) is a Major 3rd.  Expressed another way:  The 4th string fretted at the 5th fret up from either the nut or capo gives you the same note as the 3rd string open.  The 3rd string fretted at the 4th fret from the nut or capo gives you the same note as the 2nd string open.  The only thing that changes is the sound and names of the notes you're playing -- because a capo does not change the location of any note or chord.

John Boulding (who no longer participates here) calls the capo "an open string machine," because that's  one of the underlying purposes of using the capo. You want to play a song in B.  You can do that without a capo and play B, E and F# chord shapes that require fretting most of the strings most of the time and don't allow you to use any of the licks and phrases and improvisational vocabulary you've learned for key of G.  And forget about your melodic runs! BUT if you put a capo at 4, raising what what your brain recognizes as an open G to an actual open B, you can now play the song in the key of B as if in G and use all your chord shapes, licks, phrases and vocabulary that depend on open strings.  The capo has made open strings for you in the key of B.

There's more, but I've gone on long enough already.

Good luck.



Link: John Boulding's three video lessons on Understanding the Capo.

Edited to add: Sorry for repeating points from others whose messages I did not read in their entirety.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 07/25/2020 07:42:33

banjoy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  08:44:59

After I made my first post I realized that ideas such as this are often better demonstrated with an explanation, rather than explained with words alone. This topic comes up so often that I thought I would go one step further so after making my post above I threw together this quick-and-dirty video to try to show why things are the way they are.

I also see the additional posts above (made while I was creating this video) and all are really great explanations overall. I hope this 5-minute video helps add to the body of knowledge on this topic.

I also briefly explain where and why a lot of confusion on this topic is often introduced. I hope this helps and doesn't add to anyone's confusion...

Edited by - banjoy on 07/25/2020 08:46:27

dan_the_man - Posted - 07/25/2020:  12:05:27

Thanks for the replies and thanks especially to banjoy for the video! I liked how you explained that the chord shapes always "live" where they are, regardless of the capo. That helped me conceptualize the issue even if it may still be somewhat muddy in my mind as to the underlying reason.

For the other respondents, thank you! I learned a bit more from each one of your comments. 

Edited by - dan_the_man on 07/25/2020 12:06:58

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/25/2020:  12:15:11

Good demonstration.

From the video it looks like you have capo spikes at 7 and 9. Guess capoing 5th wasn't totally necessary for the purposes of this demo, which was to show very clearly that notes and chords live in the same place with or without a capo.

And that was an excellent point about people calling out chords by their shape even after the capo goes on. I do it. Most players I know do it. We know we're calling chords by their shapes and not their sounds. We do it anyway. Oh, well,

I've been in jams where for some keys, people are playing three different ways.  For example:  Key of E. Bass, mando and fiddle, open of course. One guitar open. Another guitar, capo 2, play as if in D. Banjo, capo 4, play as if in C. In another jam, the guitar player who called one bluesy song capoed at 3 to sing in G -- but play as if in E with the bottom string being open. He wanted bluesy licks out of E and A7 shapes. Song would have a whole other feel if played in G without capo.

All of this is why a good companion to  learning to use a capo is learning the chord numbering system.  If players at a jam understand their I, IV, V, vi minor and flat VII, the capo will become that much less confusing.

dan_the_man - Posted - 07/25/2020:  13:01:44

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

Is there an explanation for this, preferably in layman’s terms?

---

If you keep the banjo in one tuning, the relationships of the strings stay the same regardless of whether the strings are open or capoed.  (This assumes that you also capo the 5th string rather than tune it higher.)

You know your G, C and D chords. In G tuning open with no capo, those are the 1, 4 and 5 chords in the key of G.  

Now put a capo at 4 (and capo or spike the 5th string 4 frets up at 9).  As you noted in your opening message, an open chord with no strings fretted is now a B. That's the 1 chord in the key of B.  Because the capo has not changed the relationships of the strings to each other, you can make a C chord shape and it will be the 4 chord of the key of B.  You can make a D chord shape and it will be the 5 chord of B. The underlying notes can change, but chord shapes still sound chords because the relationships of the strings to each other has not changed.

OK, so just to make sure I understand this, if in the key of B in which the capo is at the 4th fret, when I play the C-shaped chord at 06056 (or 02012 if the capo is interpreted as the nut), I'm not actually playing "C" but I am playing the IV chord in the key of B that is a C-shaped chord? 

Correspondingly, if I tuned one or two string differently, it would throw off the entire chord progression and the chord shapes may not work anymore? 

Edited by - dan_the_man on 07/25/2020 13:03:45

banjoy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  13:14:02

I'm glad this made sense. To be honest, I am as guilty as anyone with naming chords at a jam session with a capo. It's an old habit. But I learned to transpose on the fly when at jam sessions where I'd be the only one with a capo. Then, you have no choice but to think. It can really be a mind bender sometimes, I guess like translating languages. But the light bulb does come on and then it all makes sense. The chords never move when you use a capo. All you've done is move the nut.



(I realized after I uploaded the video that I didn't need to roll through the chords, just vamping them would have accomplished the same thing! Duh! If I had done that I could have saved you a whole minute of your life!)



It's cool to see so many different angles of the same thing in this thread. Everyone posting here is sharing their unique knowledge and perspective, all in the same spirit, and it's a very cool thing to see.

And to OldHickory's point about learning I-IV-V etc, yes I've been to jams where that's what's called out too, and whatever each player has done to achieve the named key, they usually know what is meant by that. It creates a more universal "language" which crosses the capo barrier.

Edited by - banjoy on 07/25/2020 13:20:46

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/25/2020:  13:43:15

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

OK, so just to make sure I understand this, if in the key of B in which the capo is at the 4th fret, when I play the C-shaped chord at 06056 (or 02012 if the capo is interpreted as the nut), I'm not actually playing "C" but I am playing the IV chord in the key of B that is a C-shaped chord? 

---

Yes!

This is exactly what Frank demonstrated in his video. Without capo, he played a "D" shape chord with 2nd string at 5th fret (E note) which made it an E chord. The chord spanned frets 4, 5, 6. Played there, it is ALWAYS an E chord, with or without a capo. You could capo at 1, 2 or 3 and if you make that chord shape with 2nd string at the real 5th fret, it's an E. As Frank said: An E chord always lives there.

And do take note of this:   2-0-1-2  which we know as a C chord is actually a D chord shape, but because the nut takes the place of your finger for the 3rd string, you can finger it differently.  To demonstrate for yourself, make a D chord as you usually do, at frets 2,3,4.  Now slide it down one fret to 1,2,3. That's C# or D-flat. Now slide it down one more fret and put your index finger up on the nut since the 3rd string is now open.  There's a C chord, but with different fingers than you're used to.

But I digress.

quote:

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Originally posted by dan_the_man

Correspondingly, if I tuned one or two string differently, it would throw off the entire chord progression and the chord shapes may not work anymore? 

---

Of course. But that's the case with alternate tunings with or without a capo.

If you put your banjo into D tuning:  a-D-F#-A-D   the chord shapes from G tuning no longer work.  Some licks work, but they come out sounding different.

Follow-up thought: The capo IS interpreted as the nut. It's effectively the nut for your raised tuning.

Tablature for tunes that are intended to be capoed is typically written as if the capo isn't there, so that the numbers on the lines represent the number of frets up from the virtual or effective nut created by the capo or from the real nut if you to choose not to use a capo. There will be text outside the tab stating the key where to place a capo. Tuning indication at the left of the first line will typically indicate the post-capo "real" notes. 

Some tablature will be written with the chord names from the "as if" key you're playing in, which is easier for some folks to follow. Some tablature will indicate the real chords from the intended key post-capo. This is technically accurate but can be confusing.

Even more confusing is the way tabs were written in Jim Smoak's Five String Banjo Tehcnique in 1972. For tunes that called for a capo, his numbers stood for the real frets, not the relative frets, except for open/capoed strings, which he wrote as zeros.  Totally confusing.  The only time in my life I've seen that.

dan_the_man - Posted - 07/25/2020:  18:22:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

Of course. But that's the case with alternate tunings with or without a capo.

If you put your banjo into D tuning:  a-D-F#-A-D   the chord shapes from G tuning no longer work.  Some licks work, but they come out sounding different.

Aha moment! The D tuning songs I know - Ruben, John Henry, Home Sweet Home - don't have open G tuning chord shapes in them, that must be why! (Though HSH does have an A chord that was given in a chord chart, different than what it is in G tuning I'm sure.)

And yes that makes sense about the tabs with fret #'s relative to the "nut". I learned Train No 45 in G tuning but my instructor told me it's usually played in the key of B and so I just adjusted accordingly. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/25/2020:  19:05:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by dan_the_man

Aha moment! The D tuning songs I know - Ruben, John Henry, Home Sweet Home - don't have open G tuning chord shapes in them, that must be why!

---

Of course it is.

Even though we spent a lot time saying that notes and chords always "live" in the same place, that meant only within a single tuning.  (Remember, capoing changes the pitch, not the tuning).  When you change the tuning, the notes that make up a chord move to other locations. 

Something that really doesn't change, regardless of tuning, is the notes that make up a chord. 

banjoy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  22:53:34

The same concept is transferable to other turnings, though, no matter what that tuning is.



When you change turnings, all you are doing is changing the stack order of the notes to different locations on the fingerboard and the three primary chord forms (root, 1st and 2nd inversions) will take different shapes. Whatever those shapes are -- that's where they live in that tuning.



For example, drop C tuning, where you drop the 4th string "D" to a "C" so the banjo is no longer in any actual chord triad when open (not fretted) and then play 00012, you have a cool sounding C chord. Put the capo to the 2nd fret, it's still not an actual chord, but play 00012 and you now a D chord. In this tuning the D always lives there. Capo up to moth frets to the 5th fret, -- again, not any open chord, but play the same fretting, you're now playing and E, and so forth.



(As OldHickory pointed out earlier, for purposes of demonstration I haven't capoed the 5th string, but it makes no difference, whatever the notes still love where thy do. The concept same applies to the 5th string too.)



Even the weirdest tuning you can imagine will follow the same logic. Even if the open tuning omits any part of the triad (root 3rd or 5th) and any shape you make is not a full chord, does not matter. Notes live where they do and don't move with the capo., so it's really a rule.



Whatever the tuning is, and whatever the new chord shapes or chord fragments emerge from that, will always live where they do. As before, the capo does not change that, only the nut position has moved.

Edited by - banjoy on 07/25/2020 23:08:45

banjoy - Posted - 07/25/2020:  23:04:38

To further expand on how some rules can be universal, I published a method I came up with on how to locate all the primary chord shapes anywhere on a 5-String banjo neck when tuned to open G and posted it here to BHO for free some months back. It's now a sticky topic under this sub-forum.

Then at some jam session in Greer hosted by Bob Buckingham, he pointed out that my method does not apply to old time players when they use different tunings. Oh contraire, the concept absolutely is transferable to other tunings. I just ain't gonna do the work for you to figure out the different chord shapes unique to each tuning. That's on you to do :) but the concept~rule still applies even then.

This is no different. Whatever tuning you're in, and whatever new chord shapes come from that tuning, when you slap a capo on nothing changes but the nut location.

dan_the_man - Posted - 07/26/2020:  11:26:34

I think where my gap of understanding originated was the discrepancy between the tab in the key of B calling for a Position 2 C for its shape when in reality it is a Position 2 E chord capo’d at the 4th fret that looks like a Position 2 C, as you explained banjoy . It's not a C chord at all but calling it a C is a quick and easy way to write it on the tab since I already l know what a C-shaped chord is 2 frets below the nut (capo). Apparently this strategy is also used in jam sessions as some of you mentioned, where you call chords by their shapes and not their sounds.

I'm sure my instructor (Charles Wood) explained what's going on here but I may not have been ready to internalize the information due to a lack of understanding of scales and Position 1/2 chords at the time. Having reviewed everyone's replies yet again, I understand now that the entire open G fretboard is composed of Position 1 F-shaped chords, Position 2 D-shaped chords, and barred chords. What I think Texasbanjo was alluding to and Old Hickory explained further was that these shapes work regardless of the capo because each string's note stays constant in relationship to each other with their # of semi-tones of separation. When the tuning changes, the relationship of semi-tones apart also change, which requires new fingerings for making chords.

banjoy - Posted - 07/26/2020:  11:34:01

Yes, that is correct. In open G tuning there are three shapes to make any chord as you say, the F shape (Root Form) the D shape (1st Inversion) and the barre (2nd Inversion), in that order, then they repeat as you progress up the neck.



For anyone to tab out a tune in B (capo 4) then call 02012 (relative to the capo "nut") a C chord does a disservice to the player because that's not the chord being played at all yet it says so right there. Might as well call capoing to B the key of G, it makes as much sense.

A chord shape could be ANY chord so best not to call it by its shape. It's clearly not a C chord. That would be quite confusing, because suddenly a C (or ANY chord) floats all over the neck, which would mean no matter where you put the capo you're still in the key of G. That's just stupid. That's not how it works.



I see some light bulbs going off for you. That's good!

Edited by - banjoy on 07/26/2020 11:36:59