Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/27/2020:  16:15:42

Engineering laminated rims-wood choices

Probably the most common and traditional rim construction is the laminated form, ranging from the 7-ply Fairbanks types to the 3-ply Gibson ones.  

The idea is very simple; two or more layers of wood are laminated to one another into or around a form, and each successive layer, once the glue sets, locks the previous one(s) into a shape, which remains stable and cannot spring back.  The rigidity of the construction increases as more layers are laminated and you have to use the right kind of glue.   This is an ideal way to make banjo rims and accounts for the fact that banjo rims have primarily been made this way for over 125 years.

Thin strips are cut from a log, which are then stacked and dried enough to get beyond the shrinkage stage.  Ideally, they are flat cut so that the quarter figure appears on the top edge of the slats from which the rims will be made

After that, they are ripped and planed to the desired thickness for the rims being made

You can see that these slats are made from different kinds of wood—maple, birch, beech, cherry, walnut, etc etc.  Each of these woods have different physical properties, and the most important ones for rim building are stiffness (modulus of elasticity), measured in millions of pounds per square inch (Mpsi), density, measured in pounds per cubic foot, and bending strength, measured in pounds per square inch (psi).

The species of wood is important mainly in terms of these physical properties, and while individual pieces of wood might sound somewhat different when struck—some might work better than others as marimba bars, for instance—the rim of a banjo is a structural entity supporting the head and its tensioning hardware, and not a “sounding board”, so I go by the physical properties when engineering rims.

Having said that, here is a chart showing the physical properties of some common wood species that could be used to make banjo rims.  I put Honduras mahogany in there even though it’s not a “North American wood” because it’s one of the ones I use.

Here’s another chart that narrows it down further, and this one is organized by stiffness.  You will note that stiffness does not necessarily correlate with density, so while, for instance, yellow birch makes the stiffest rim, it does not make the heaviest one.

Here are pictures of the woods I normally use in order of stiffness— I have made rims from oak and ash, which are included on this chart, but you can see that other woods have similar properties.  I really like oak and ash, and they make great rims, but because of the open grain appearance, you need to have a design that is enhanced by that "look".

SO, based on the history of the instrument, it’s easy to argue that maple is the quintessential banjo rim wood—it’s what Gibson used exclusively for their rims (although their spec was “maple or beech”, so there might be some beech thrown in there on some rims)—it would be tough to tell from the part you can see—Can you tell whether this 1927 rim is beech, maple, or both?—I can’t—they get darker with age.

In terms of Fairbanks / Vega—all their rims were maple.

So, going back to the chart, and assuming red maple is the wood that has been most used historically, this would be the  quintessential rim that would give you the banjo sound you’d expect to hear, like maple bridges

Before I go any farther, I will reiterate that a banjo rim is not a sounding board, and it’s the physical characteristics of the rim that makes it plinky or plunky— I would argue this is a function of the stiffness and density of the rim, not whether it’s maple or cherry—red maple just has the right combination of stiffness and density, not some internal cellular structure that produces the sound.   I can also anticipate a question, so being a kind of banjo heretic, I’m going to  insert a quote from a major guitar builder rather than addressing this with my own opinion—

“Tap tone—” I may get into some real trouble for this opinion, but I’ve never been able to make sense of tap tone as a way to judge a top (read rim). I tried very early in my career to make it work for us, but there seemed to be too many variables and human-error opportunities for this to be a good judge of a top (rim). I will not say that it doesn’t work for others. It just doesn’t work for me because I find it to be a very unscientific and unquantifiable practice. ”

end of editorial.

If you were going to make “pure” rims, which is to say, made from one species of wood from some of the others, here would be the results:

My experience is (and the differences are subtle) that higher stiffness is going to provide a brighter snappier sound, and less stiffness will provide a more mellow, plunkier sound, so an all birch rim would probably be great for bluegrass banjos (true), particularly if you wanted to peel paint with a “Stanley sound”,  and an all cherry rim would appeal more to clawhammer / old time players who wanted plunk (also true).

This, of course, goes along with scale length / bridge placement.

NOW,  back to engineering— suppose you are making a walnut banjo, or a cherry one, a mahogany one, or an oak one—

We know that the neck has an affect on the sound of the banjo, but we want to have the best performing rim, yet have it match the neck—what do we do?

My thesis here is to laminate the rim so that the part you see is made from the same wood as the neck, but we maintain the physical characteristics that produce the rim we like, and we can actually control that (probably not with a block rim).

Here’s an example of combinations that roughly mimic the characteristics of maple.

You can see that the density doesn’t go along for the ride, so you can’t be perfect.

The world is your oyster:

Beyond this, there are ways to engineer rims for specific applications—case in point would be the  rims made by Vega when they were using set-screws to adjust the neck—you would need alternate laminations in a hard wood like beech to allow threaded holes to be made through the rim.

Here’s one I made for a 60s Vega reproduction:

I don’t know what else to add at this point—I hope we get some discussion.

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 01/27/2020 16:21:54

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/27/2020:  17:28:30

Great post and thank you for sharing valuable information and photos. This will go into my book of knowledge.

kwl - Posted - 01/27/2020:  17:44:34

Great information. Thanks for sharing.

PaulRF - Posted - 01/27/2020:  18:15:43

Great thread. Lots of info and photos. Thanks Ken.

Paul

KCJones - Posted - 01/27/2020:  19:02:19

Looking at the chart, it looks like Hickory is the stiffest and most dense wood. Why is it not used for banjo rims?

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/27/2020:  20:07:50

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

Looking at the chart, it looks like Hickory is the stiffest and most dense wood. Why is it not used for banjo rims?

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I have made 2 hickory open back banjo rims and they are keepers. Really pronounced bass response and great full tone. I use a nylon wound 4th string and for old-time jams it kicks butt with volume and tone. 

One was made for a member Bill from Australia the other is mine. Whyte lady tonerings renaissance heads. 

awildman - Posted - 01/27/2020:  23:28:38

There is a lot of misinformation about music instrument woods in general. Violin woods, guitar woods, woodwind woods and metals, accordions and many more. Most of it is just that: misinformation. I have always believed that construction to be of far superior importance than specific materials. Quality materials are important, yes, but the design and manufacture have a much larger impact on most things.

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/28/2020:  01:12:55

quote:

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Originally posted by awildman

There is a lot of misinformation about music instrument woods in general. Violin woods, guitar woods, woodwind woods and metals, accordions and many more. Most of it is just that: misinformation. I have always believed that construction to be of far superior importance than specific materials. Quality materials are important, yes, but the design and manufacture have a much larger impact on most things.

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Im not sure if it is misinformation or just opinions from experience of those woods, how can they comment on other woods if they have not used and tested them. Yes construction is key, if you get that wrong the instrument will not perform to it's full potential. That I agree.

I believe from experience that woods can contribute to a brighter or warmer tone. When I started building rims from woods that were not maple, I was told "you cant do that it wont work" I did not know myself but I wanted to know the results so I could speak my truth. I have tried many woods and will continue to try different things for my own knowledge. During this process I have found amazing sound quality from Fijian Mahogany. Affordable, sustainable  and easy to work with. How could I know that without trying it, no one would ever tell me to use it. Same as my hickory rims, nobody accepted it until it proved itself.

Yes it is obvious some woods you would not use due to hardness, softness, cracking, warping, twisting, etc but keep an open mind and do not lock yourself in to the normal only. Break the mould.

Eric A - Posted - 01/28/2020:  02:16:47

Some folks swear that rims on banjos that are 80+ years old sound better, however they quantify that. How is that fitting into this? Has the wood gotten stiffer over time? (I doubt it has gotten denser).

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/28/2020:  04:31:25

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric A

Some folks swear that rims on banjos that are 80+ years old sound better, however they quantify that. How is that fitting into this? Has the wood gotten stiffer over time? (I doubt it has gotten denser).

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I'm no expert or scientist but my guess is 80 years of fluctuations of moisture content, it may have finally equalised to a certain percentage of moisture and stays there creating an even sound or consistent sound. If you hit a wet log your hear a thud and a dry log a knock. That is how seeing it at the moment.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/28/2020:  04:52:00

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

Looking at the chart, it looks like Hickory is the stiffest and most dense wood. Why is it not used for banjo rims?

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I think it would be great for one or two inside layers—you could really stiffen up the rim on a cherry banjo.   Also, I'm sure hickory would be really easy to steam bend, like ash, oak and beech.  I have never tried it because I don't have any hickory 

The forest type right around me where I get permits to pick up downed logs is maple, cherry, beech, birch, ash, basswood.  The other side of the mountain facing south and going down 1,000 ft in elevation has oak, poplar, hickory, and sycamore along the creeks.  It's just too far for me to go.  I'd like to try sycamore.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/28/2020:  05:49:41

quote:

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Originally posted by awildman

There is a lot of misinformation about music instrument woods in general. Violin woods, guitar woods, woodwind woods and metals, accordions and many more. Most of it is just that: misinformation. I have always believed that construction to be of far superior importance than specific materials. Quality materials are important, yes, but the design and manufacture have a much larger impact on most things.

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You would get along with luthier John Calkin— a contributing editor to American Lutherie, the official publication of the Guild of American Luthiers (GAL). A professional luthier since 1980.

He wrote a very good article called "The Heretic's Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods", which you should read.  He says "I don't think the species of wood contributes to the tone of a guitar. I don't concern myself with with tap tones or tap tuning. I believe that good work and experience is everything."

OldPappy - Posted - 01/28/2020:  13:07:13

Very interesting topic. I agree that the wood used in a banjo rim has nothing to do with the sound. It is an air chamber not a soundboard.

Deering says some of their banjo rims are "violin grade maple", and that makes me laugh.

Jeff Kramer build a couple of banjos with hickory, but the rims were block rims. The one I played was a beautiful banjo, it sounded very good, but it was heavy.

I much prefer laminated rims over block rims mostly for structural reasons, but I think they also look better.

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/28/2020:  13:53:24

I want to try laminated rims one day. I find block rims easy with my tooling and love the look.
When I start up again in New Zealand next year I will try and work out how I can do it.

DRH - Posted - 01/28/2020:  15:45:49

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

Deering says some of their banjo rims are "violin grade maple", and that makes me laugh.

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I get the same chuckle when I see "Custom Shop" Squiers and Epiphones on Craigslist.

...............................

It is important to remember when we talk of stiffness (modulus of elasticity) in wood we are talking about stiffness in bending against the primary axis.  Put a 2X4 between two cinder blocks and stand on it.  The amount it bends is a function of dimensions and elastic modulus.

Modulus of elasticity - for wood anyway - only makes sense in simple bending in one axis.  Furthermore, the sample under evaluation must be straight-grained and devoid of knots.  Modulus goes up as the wood cures.  Green Hickory has a modulus of 1.57 Mpsi.  Cured, it reaches 2.16 Mpsi.  Other woods have greater or lesser differences between green and cured.

Steaming permanently weakens some wood more than others.  Bending (steamed or not) causes something called load stiffening.  This doesn't actually increase the modulus of elasticity but the effect is the same.  Any residual stresses in the finished component will stiffen it, much like a spring gets stiffer the more it is compressed.  And you probably guessed it, residual stress raises the effective stiffness and therefore raises any natural resonance that may exist in a component.

Now we come to natural resonance.  Clamp on end of a board to a table, deflect the free end and let go.  If the board is long enough it will oscillate.  As you shorten the free length the natural frequency goes up.  But wood is a composite.  As the frequency goes up so does the damping.  This is caused by internal friction and viscosity.   Shorten the free end of our clamped board enough and damping cancels out any resonance.

Now that we have the basics of making noise with wooden things it's time for the caveats.  Lots of caveats.  Lamination turns simple algebra into a computer problem or worse.  Glue two boards together such that their grain is aligned.  The modulus will increase.  Laminate two boards with grain runout in a similar manner and the modulus will probably go up more than it did for straight-grained wood.  An extreme example of this is oriented strand board subflooring.  The longest fragment of grain in OSB is about two inches.  If manufactured correctly it is extremely stiff because the grain orientation is random in two axis'.

Laminate three strips into a ring.  You have load stiffening because the wood is still under stress.  You have stiffening because the grain alignment is far from perfect.  You have damping from grain misalignment, possibly some damping from the glue which can vary with temperature. 

I would like to see various rim designs tested for free body resonance.  The fact that nice  sounding banjos have been built from laminated rings, glued up blocks of endless variety, aluminum, brass, and even rolled steel plate tells me there aren't many hard and fast rules.

The more I study the physics (credits to Dr Politzer) of a banjo the more I'm convinced the neck, head, bridge, and strings make the sound.  The pot provides an air chamber much like a kettle drum so there is a contribution.  Mostly the pot holds things together.

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/28/2020:  16:36:32

Nice information DRH I will read this over and over to gain some knowledge.
I Love the things I love and my whole heart immerses deeply in to them. The rest of lifes rubbish can remain a mystery to me.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/28/2020:  17:37:19

What I am talking about is circumferential stiffness—in other words, how easy or difficult would it be to squeeze the cylinder which is the rim into an oval.  Not being a structural engineer,  it's difficult for me to calculate or express that, but I know that a stave construction like a barrel can be squeezed into an oval much more readily than a laminated cylinder.

I've used this illustration before—look at this chair, built in 1931—it has withstood the stress of people sitting on it over and over for 89 years, and retains its structural integrity and shape.  if you tried to do this with a block type construction or something with the wood pieces going across the planes sideways or even at an angle, it would just break.

I have no idea to what extent steaming alters the physical characteristics of the wood, or how much strength is added by the lamination process —do more laminations make it stronger? I suspect they do, but I'd love to see some kind of a study about this.

C Flat Fred - Posted - 01/28/2020:  20:18:36

In an old Irving Sloane book, Making Musical Instruments, he talks about making a banjo rim out of veneer. I took some notes and thought that I would try that since I have never done that before. (If I squint when I look at it, my first banjo, with a block rim is about 94 and 7/8^th done. So there are many things in banjo building that I have not done yet.) I would guess that if the veneer is thin that it would be easy to bend and the main rim component might be glue. Unfortunately I will not be able to try this until spring or early summer.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/29/2020:  04:40:28

quote:

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Originally posted by C Flat Fred

In an old Irving Sloane book, Making Musical Instruments, he talks about making a banjo rim out of veneer. I took some notes and thought that I would try that since I have never done that before. (If I squint when I look at it, my first banjo, with a block rim is about 94 and 7/8^th done. So there are many things in banjo building that I have not done yet.) I would guess that if the veneer is thin that it would be easy to bend and the main rim component might be glue. Unfortunately I will not be able to try this until spring or early summer.

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Bart Reiter says he started making them that way, with 1/16" veneer strips.  The first laminated rim I made was basically veneer—1/16" strips, just bent around and soaked in a sink to soften them—no steaming.  It worked fine.  There's no reason why that wouldn't work, although if you soak the strips in water, you should probably use some urea laminating glue because the wet wood will tend to dilute Titebond.

C Flat Fred - Posted - 01/29/2020:  05:01:37

Thanks Ken. I will keep that in mind. I was planning on doing a search for what glue to use when I got the form done in a few months.
By the way, your drawings and photos are great as always and I really appreciate the effort that you put into them. I especially like that photo of the necks.

6stringedRamble - Posted - 01/29/2020:  05:30:05

Hi Ken,



I thought you made a rimless banjo to prove that sound comes from the head and not the pot?



Also, I'm wondering how much of a difference an untrained ear could hear? My gold tone does have a distinctive "voice" but it took me a few years of playing to be able to recognize it.



Also, I've had something of an interest in banjo like instruments of the far East, as a musical foil to banjo. I think the classic wood for the Chinese sanxian is ebony(neck and rim), seems so anyways. How would that fair for a pot? They say for a guitar soundboard ebony would be way too bright. But sanxian is played with natural fiber strings. How could you offset a pot sound with different setups?



Here's an old timer from Appalachia making pots out of '56 Buick transmission, which he prefers to wood. What do think of this technique?

Edited by - 6stringedRamble on 01/29/2020 05:33:54

VIDEO: Jenes Cottrell: Clay County Banjo Maker
(click to view)

 

rudy - Posted - 01/29/2020:  05:54:06

quote:

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Originally posted by C Flat Fred

In an old Irving Sloane book, Making Musical Instruments, he talks about making a banjo rim out of veneer. I took some notes and thought that I would try that since I have never done that before. (If I squint when I look at it, my first banjo, with a block rim is about 94 and 7/8^th done. So there are many things in banjo building that I have not done yet.) I would guess that if the veneer is thin that it would be easy to bend and the main rim component might be glue. Unfortunately I will not be able to try this until spring or early summer.

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Hi C Flat Fred ,

I've made several rims from oak and walnut 1/16" veneer, and although it can be done effectively I find the 1/16" veneer to be difficult to use for a couple of different reasons.  I much prefer to use a more substantial thickness that shapes more uniformly without excessive clamping needs and results in rims that can be machined and sanded without going through the outermost layer.  The edges also tend to be overly-fragile and easily splintered.

I also dislike using "standard" 1/4" - 3/8" layers as they are difficult for other reasons, mainly having to do with forcing wood into a shape it doesn't want to be in and how it responds to that...

I use rim laminations that are in between those extremes and find "Goldilocks thickness" to be an ideal solution.  I've posted a topic that details their use here:

Making Banjo Rims Using "Goldilocks" Laminations

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/29/2020:  06:00:14

quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

Hi Ken,



I thought you made a rimless banjo to prove that sound comes from the head and not the pot?



Also, I'm wondering how much of a difference an untrained ear could hear? My gold tone does have a distinctive "voice" but it took me a few years of playing to be able to recognize it.



Also, I've had something of an interest in banjo like instruments of the far East, as a musical foil to banjo. I think the classic wood for the Chinese sanxian is ebony(neck and rim), seems so anyways. How would that fair for a pot? They say for a guitar soundboard ebony would be way too bright. But sanxian is played with natural fiber strings. How could you offset a pot sound with different setups?



Here's an old timer from Appalachia making pots out of '56 Buick transmission, which he prefers to wood. What do think of this technique?

---

I did do that, and the sound DOES come from the head, not the pot.  The rim is really a "chassis" that supports all the tensioning hardware the tone ring and the head. The correct combination of stiffness / rigidity is what's most important

I have seen the banjo made from a transmission and am well aware of the various ones Ode and others have made from cast alumiunum.  They have a distinctive sound.

Leslie R - Posted - 01/29/2020:  06:35:04

If I understand correctly, think you nailed it that the sound is a product of the overall assimilation of the components. Correct me if I'm stating this wrong.
It's kinda like all of the parts come together and form a single unit unto itself. They are all connected and each individual piece plays a role.
I can not back this up with scientific methods, but intuitively I think the rim plays a bit larger role than what you are describing.
Still, without a doubt, I am totally convinced each part comes to play a role.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 01/29/2020:  06:41:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Leslie R

If I understand correctly, think you nailed it that the sound is a product of the overall assimilation of the components. Correct me if I'm stating this wrong.

It's kinda like all of the parts come together and form a single unit unto itself. They are all connected and each individual piece plays a role.

I can not back this up with scientific methods, but intuitively I think the rim plays a bit larger role than what you are describing.

Still, without a doubt, I am totally convinced each part comes to play a role.

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I think in terms of your 14" pots, the rim plays an incredibly important role—remember that squishy one?  But I don't think they are better because of the kind of wood, just the strength characteristics of it.  It's impossible to measure the effect other than by listening.

Leslie R - Posted - 01/29/2020:  07:03:30

I was just thinking about that squishy one.
The rims you made brought something to life.
That's a valid comparison of 2 extremes.

6stringedRamble - Posted - 01/29/2020:  14:14:00

quote:

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Originally posted by 5strings3picks1banjo

I want to try laminated rims one day. I find block rims easy with my tooling and love the look.

When I start up again in New Zealand next year I will try and work out how I can do it.

---

Akubra makes a classic edition hat called Banjo Peterson. Is Banjo popular down under? Any notable luthiers that aways?

DRH - Posted - 01/29/2020:  15:58:31

The reason wood gets stiffer when you laminate it is because wood is not homogenous ( a true nerd would say isotropic ). Its modulus varies along its length, width, and depth. Its grain is never truly straight. The ring spacing varies. If you bend a board until it breaks you will probably find the lines of fracture follow some grain anomaly, miniscule knot, or other defect.

If you saw a board down the middle and then glue the pieces back together as they came apart the resulting stiffness will probably be about the same as before. The grain runs pretty much the same as it was before cutting the board. Since both pieces have about the same properties as before the neutral axis will still be in the middle, right at the glue line. Any grain runout in one piece will simply continue across the neutral axis. Since the neutral axis is the crossover from compression to tension it follows that the stress at the neutral axis is zero.

This principle fails when two dissimilar strips are glued together. Minor variations in grain and stiffness will move the neutral axis away from the glue line. Glue hickory and sycamore together and the neutral axis will be somewhere in the hickory. The stiffer wood will take most of the load.

The glue line will now be under stress. That means both strips have stress, and therefore strain, at the glue line. The grain lines are interrupted at the glue line and the material at the glue surfaces will try to deform (strain) at different rates and in different directions. Since the surfaces are constrained together by the glue they will tend to fight each other (Fight is a stupid word for it but the appropriate word escapes me).

As you increase the number of laminations you increase the grain discontinuities. The result is increased stiffness. A quick test of this is to compare two pieces of plywood of the same thickness but different number of layers. 1/2" five ply is substantially stiffer than three ply. Plywood veneers are intentionally oriented to increase stiffness.

You can further increase the stiffness of a laminate by putting the softer wood in the middle and the stiffer wood at the innermost and outermost layers. Since they are farthest away from the neutral axis they will be under the greatest stress. The higher elastic modulus of these strips will result in less deformation under load.

So if you are going for stiffness, use more and thinner laminations. And/or put your hardest wood on the inside and outside surfaces. Vega used seven laminations and Gibson used three so the above does not make the case that more is better.

DRH - Posted - 01/29/2020:  17:19:08

I made the following claim in my first post:

"Steaming permanently weakens some wood more than others."

It was a good point but not necessarily relavent to the rest of that paragraph. I will attempt to clarify, as Ken expressed an interest in the topic.

Steam has 540 times as much caloric energy per gram as liquid water at 212F. That is what makes it so effective at cooking vegetables. It has the same effect on wood. It breaks down the lignin that ties cell structures together. I don't know how much permanent affect it has on elastic modulus. It has a significant effect on fracture strength which is not the same as stiffness.

In 1978 I spent a day with luthier Ben Haynes in Baker Oregon. While I was there he pulled a pair of guitar sides from a rectangular pan of simmering water and proceded to clamp them into a form. I asked why he was boiling the wood instead of steaming. He said the steam was faster but boiling was more consistent and resulted in fewer failures in the forming process. Fewer steam-burnt fingers too.

I asked Ben if boiling permanently weakened the wood. He said boiling and steaming both did but that it was not a critical factor for the sides. The fiddle and mandolin sides were boiled, then hand formed on a hot pipe.

I once visited a pressure treatment mill in western Oregon. The wood was pressure steamed with a cocktail of arsenic, copper, and chromium, and water. I remember someone telling me this was why pressure treated wood was structurally inferior to kiln or air dried wood. It seems to be just as stiff once dry but considerably more brittle. I was told the brittleness was caused by breakdown of the lignin. I haven't been able to locate any scientific papers on the subject and we didn't do wood in college, so I'm offering this as hearsay.

Any reduction in breaking strength from steaming or boiling is probably not important when building a pot. One thing I forgot to mention in my post about laminating is that laminates tend to have higher breaking strength than solid wood. Failures in bending usually begin at the surface. Constraining that surface to another surface inhibits fracture initiation sites.

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 01/29/2020:  17:19:27

quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringedRamble

quote:

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Originally posted by 5strings3picks1banjo

I want to try laminated rims one day. I find block rims easy with my tooling and love the look.

When I start up again in New Zealand next year I will try and work out how I can do it.

---

Akubra makes a classic edition hat called Banjo Peterson. Is Banjo popular down under? Any notable luthiers that aways?

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Yes many good lutheirs and then there is me 

Banjo lutheirs, Buckmaster, Grundy, Ray Black/Pat Do'ole, Bellbird, Wayne Bennett, White Swallow and more I cannot think of names right now.

Some of these openly say they have others make parts, I also buy most metalware and had my first neck made by Arthur Hatfield. If I was to make necks I wanted to know what is the best quality and what is my target. From this I was able to gauge my own work and could I match the profile and quality.

Pat Do'ole welcomed myself and my Bussiness partner Peter Elias from when we were called Banjobrothers into his workshop.He showed us some tooling and how to make hooks and nuts, tension hoops, and resonators. He used a modified electric frying pan element and a plough disc to make and shape his resonators. Wayne Bennet gave me tools for cutting inlays and taught me many things including fitting skin heads correctly. Rodger Buckmaster showed me some of his work in various stages including his rims with veneer finish. I would also take things I made to get his opinion. There was a fiJian Mahogany and beech rim I made that he was very interested in when he saw the quality and sound. I have been very blessed that I have fallen in love with an instrument that other builders are willing to share information.

I have learnt a lot from members here and even adopted ideas and changed the way I did some things because it was easier and quicker or better results. I love being part of this site.

I know if I am to create my own ply rims it is here that I will be taught by the many talented members willing to share. I thank Helix whom I have great respect for, he has shared some amazing information with me. I really love the Helix approach to many things because he is doing it his way which I am working towards.

Right now I am looking at working without a lathe in the future and that information is being shared with us by Rudy and others like Ken Levan and many more.