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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Beating a dead horse? Gibson Pot Dating by Serial


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/357748

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/15/2019:  07:14:24


Purchased a pot from a reputable hangout member a while back for a project banjo. Serial number in the rim is 61988, he guestimated it to be a late model pot, 2012ish if I remember correctly.

Curiosity got to me, so I started to research a little and that serial number just doesn't line up with the guess. Gibson has a serial number reference chart for banjos post 1988, and this doesn't fit. My research continued. Next I was perusing Banjophiles lint of known serial number from "bowtie era" banjos. Around 1962 on this list there are a handful of banjos with similar 5 digit numbers.

So my question, I suppose: Is it safe to assume this pot is from 1962 based on available evidence?

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/15/2019:  09:15:42


Correction, 1963

beegee - Posted - 10/15/2019:  16:24:39


1963 seems reasonable to me. How thick is it. Does it have a blind hole drilled for an upper co-rod?

rcc56 - Posted - 10/15/2019:  16:41:13


If it is a Gibson rim, it was not made in 2012.  The last Gibson banjos were produced in 2008 or 2009.



Be careful about dating Gibson products by serial number alone. Gibson often used the same serial numbers 2 or 3 times. A good knowledge of product specifications is necessary when confirming when a Gibson instrument was made.



For a rim, measure the thickness, count the plies, observe the color [if the finish is original], and listen to guys like Bob Gaddis who know something about the different ways things were machined at various times over the past few decades.



Was this rim turned for a one-piece flange or a two piece? Was it cut for a flathead tone ring or an arch top? By the way, if anyone has the measurements for the different kind of tone ring cuts on postwar Mastertone rims, this would be a good time to post them.


Edited by - rcc56 on 10/15/2019 16:46:37

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/16/2019:  04:39:10


quote:

Originally posted by beegee

1963 seems reasonable to me. How thick is it. Does it have a blind hole drilled for an upper co-rod?






Full thickness, appears to be 3 ply, drilled for upper co-rod. 

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/16/2019:  04:42:24


quote:

Originally posted by rcc56

If it is a Gibson rim, it was not made in 2012.  The last Gibson banjos were produced in 2008 or 2009.



Be careful about dating Gibson products by serial number alone. Gibson often used the same serial numbers 2 or 3 times. A good knowledge of product specifications is necessary when confirming when a Gibson instrument was made.



For a rim, measure the thickness, count the plies, observe the color [if the finish is original], and listen to guys like Bob Gaddis who know something about the different ways things were machined at various times over the past few decades.



Was this rim turned for a one-piece flange or a two piece? Was it cut for a flathead tone ring or an arch top? By the way, if anyone has the measurements for the different kind of tone ring cuts on postwar Mastertone rims, this would be a good time to post them.






I misstated, 07-08 was his estimate. It's cut for a two piece flange and a long skirt flathead ring. 

lightgauge - Posted - 10/16/2019:  04:44:26


When did they quit stamping rim serial numbers and move them to the peghead? I was thinking prior to '63, but not a bow tie historian as some are.

lightgauge - Posted - 10/16/2019:  04:53:55


Two pc. flange would be an exception in either '63 or '07-'08

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/16/2019:  05:00:59


quote:

Originally posted by lightgauge

Two pc. flange would be an exception in either '63 or '07-'08






One piece flange... I'm asleep apparently. 

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/16/2019:  05:29:57


quote:

Originally posted by lightgauge

Two pc. flange would be an exception in either '63 or '07-'08






Any flange can be a two piece if you are creative enough with a hack saw... wink

J.Albert - Posted - 10/16/2019:  14:36:03


You're not going to get good answers until you post detailed pics to show us what you're lookin' at...

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/17/2019:  04:54:36


Here are a few I have on my phone. One is the serial number stamped inside the rim. the other is the blind hole drilled for the upper co rod. I threw one in of the assembly because I like it.


gugger - Posted - 10/18/2019:  17:14:59


Gibson stamped the number in the rim from 1949 thru and including 1960. 1961 through at least the late 1960's will have it on the back of the peghead and no number in the rim.

billy moore - Posted - 10/22/2019:  18:52:58


That looks like a 1990’s rim to me. It is not from the 60’s or 70’s for sure. Could be 90’s-early 2000’s.

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/23/2019:  08:36:51


quote:

Originally posted by billy moore

That looks like a 1990’s rim to me. It is not from the 60’s or 70’s for sure. Could be 90’s-early 2000’s.






The problem there is Gibson lists a fairly specific way they numbered rims from the late 80's through the end. It's puzzling. 

250gibson - Posted - 10/23/2019:  09:57:55


quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

quote:

Originally posted by billy moore

That looks like a 1990’s rim to me. It is not from the 60’s or 70’s for sure. Could be 90’s-early 2000’s.






The problem there is Gibson lists a fairly specific way they numbered rims from the late 80's through the end. It's puzzling. 






Is there a label in the rim?  

250gibson - Posted - 10/23/2019:  09:58:48


quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

quote:

Originally posted by billy moore

That looks like a 1990’s rim to me. It is not from the 60’s or 70’s for sure. Could be 90’s-early 2000’s.






The problem there is Gibson lists a fairly specific way they numbered rims from the late 80's through the end. It's puzzling. 






Flange also on newer models had Gibson USA stamp by the heel. 

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/23/2019:  10:08:53


quote:

Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

quote:

Originally posted by billy moore

That looks like a 1990’s rim to me. It is not from the 60’s or 70’s for sure. Could be 90’s-early 2000’s.






The problem there is Gibson lists a fairly specific way they numbered rims from the late 80's through the end. It's puzzling. 






Flange also on newer models had Gibson USA stamp by the heel. 






Yes, Gibson label in rim, no pic currently. The flange and other hardware are Prucha (cause I'm fancy...). 

mike gregory - Posted - 10/23/2019:  10:20:26


Since I don't know much about Gibson serial #s, how about a GIF?



Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/23/2019:  10:46:00


quote:

Originally posted by mike gregory

Since I don't know much about Gibson serial #s, how about a GIF?








Mike, it was exactly what this thread needed. 



Honestly, I'm not concerned, I am more curious than anything. As long as the banjo ends up sounding good. I don't plan on putting a name on the peghead. 

kyleb - Posted - 10/25/2019:  18:53:04


Post th Gibson label they looked differnt in the 60s and 90s 2000s too

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 10/28/2019:  04:39:57


quote:

Originally posted by kyleb

Post th Gibson label they looked differnt in the 60s and 90s 2000s too






I'll do that. Have to snap a pic of it this evening. 

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 01/22/2020:  08:56:48


Forgot to upload this. It's a water transfer and the I's line up.


Edited by - Moose_Roberts on 01/22/2020 08:57:16



 

southerndrifter - Posted - 01/22/2020:  09:11:02


quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

Forgot to upload this. It's a water transfer and the I's line up.






Actually, if you look closely, the "i"s don't line up. I would submit that this is not a Gibson rim at all, based on the fake Gibson label. 

rcc56 - Posted - 01/22/2020:  11:26:53


That's a reproduction pre-war label, and is not the right style for a rim with a 6 digit serial number.

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 01/22/2020:  11:52:01


What would an early 60’s label look like?


Edited by - Moose_Roberts on 01/22/2020 11:52:16

250gibson - Posted - 01/22/2020:  12:04:45


quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

What would an early 60’s label look like?






Early 60s would have been a bow tie banjo and I don’t think they had labels. 

country frank - Posted - 01/23/2020:  04:02:09


quote:

Originally posted by southerndrifter

quote:

Originally posted by Moose_Roberts

Forgot to upload this. It's a water transfer and the I's line up.






Actually, if you look closely, the "i"s don't line up. I would submit that this is not a Gibson rim at all, based on the fake Gibson label. 






Well spotted Lynwood - [BTW i am still loving men in hats and ties]yes.

Moose_Roberts - Posted - 01/23/2020:  04:31:03


Thanks everyone. Such is life. They did a fine job affixing that label though.

Still a solid rim, and I didn't overpay for it.

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