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 Playing Advice: 4-String (Jazz, Blues & Other Trad Styles)
 ARCHIVED TOPIC: All Frets


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/355134

ldieckow - Posted - 07/01/2019:  15:35:27


Anyone here going to All Frets in Springfield, Ill ? Looking forward to seeing everyone we saw @ NAIBC in April and others that couldn't make Dearborn too. It's always a great convention and after all these years, it feels like a family reunion too!

JackRyanNPU - Posted - 07/04/2019:  13:49:05


No.

ldieckow - Posted - 07/12/2019:  15:29:47


Played a 45 minute set @ the first afterglow concert with Tyler Jackson and Johnny Baier last night. Afterwards, I had the pleasure of finally meeting Juergen Kulus whom I sure hope to jam with!

malarz - Posted - 07/12/2019:  16:06:01


Thanks for your update. If you can track down anyone doing videos maybe you could get them shared with us. I don’t know if I’ve heard Juergen Kulus on any recordings.

Ken

ldieckow - Posted - 07/14/2019:  15:14:59


I was lucky to play quite a bit with Juergen and Tyler Jackson this weekend. We played the 2nd afterglow concert last night. Friday and Saturday night we started jamming around 1am and carried on til close to 4am. Juergen was playing his Silver Bell style Ome plectrum, Tyler played his tenor NPU #6, and I played my Montana 4 on Friday and my Symphonie w/ a 12" pot last night. Needless to say, it was insanely fun and good. Trading fours and playing lines with them was banjo heaven for me! I'm not sure how to post vids on here, but there will be some on my facebook page soon!

banjotrader - Posted - 07/14/2019:  16:47:44


I'm curious to know more about this NPU of Tyler's you've mentioned - which has slipped under my nose. I know about most that have circulated in recent years, and own many. From what pictures I have seen of it, it is sadly not completely original. The neck features don't match the rim features (out by 2-3 years). Sadly these get joined together by unsuspecting buyers, or donors (from plectrum conversions). I hope he didnt fall for one, or invest too much into it. Time will tell.



In other news, I hope all frets was a blast.


Edited by - banjotrader on 07/14/2019 16:48:58

parlour player - Posted - 07/16/2019:  15:04:22


Enjoy!

youtube.com/channel/UCoWAdJNrC...T-0d1gvoQ

aintbrokejustbadlybent - Posted - 07/16/2019:  17:15:43


ldieckow

Hey Lance, any videos of you , Tyler and Juergen?

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/17/2019:  00:37:11


quote:

Originally posted by banjotrader

I'm curious to know more about this NPU of Tyler's you've mentioned - which has slipped under my nose. I know about most that have circulated in recent years, and own many. From what pictures I have seen of it, it is sadly not completely original. The neck features don't match the rim features (out by 2-3 years). Sadly these get joined together by unsuspecting buyers, or donors (from plectrum conversions). I hope he didnt fall for one, or invest too much into it. Time will tell.



This is not correct - the first Silver Bell´s with a Type B peghead (with the small "ears") were built minimum 2 months before the last NPU with "snow flake" rim inlays was built.


malarz - Posted - 07/17/2019:  03:24:04


I know just about nothing of the history of Silver Bells and NPU’s and the others from Bacon & Day. Any websites with histories and photos? Any personal thoughts on the tone/timbrel/sonic qualities and playing differences among the different models?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Ken

banjotrader - Posted - 07/17/2019:  03:29:44


Furthermore, this lion doesnt appear with snowflake inlays which you’ll need to reference the database I’ve sent you. The last batch are at 17xxx, any others are faked or mismatched SNs. Sorry, but the claim stands

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/17/2019:  04:15:45


quote:

Originally posted by banjotrader

Furthermore, this lion doesnt appear with snowflake inlays which you’ll need to reference the database I’ve sent you. The last batch are at 17xxx, any others are faked or mismatched SNs. Sorry, but the claim stands



Well - we´ll have to see about that - so far I´ve proven you 2-3 years wrong with regards to the peghead shape.



For now I have only some blurry pics of the banjo in question - I´ll wait for some more detailed and sharp ones to pop up - before coming up with further statements/views/conclusions.






 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/17/2019:  04:33:05


quote:

Originally posted by malarz

I know just about nothing of the history of Silver Bells and NPU’s and the others from Bacon & Day. Any websites with histories and photos? Any personal thoughts on the tone/timbrel/sonic qualities and playing differences among the different models?




Ken - everything as asked for by you is maybe/hopefully on its way - I´ll let you and others know about any future blog articles at an up-coming new web site of mine.

JackRyanNPU - Posted - 07/17/2019:  07:20:04


How have you proven anyone wrong? If Im not mistaken, several different instances has Peter had to correct you on banjos that you personally had in your hands... some of them even being reproductions. 


Peter is your best bet on finding accurate research regarding these amazing and legendary banjos. 


If I were you, I would definitely welcome any and all input that Peter has. His claims are not baseless like so many others.


 


quote:

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

quote:

Originally posted by banjotrader

Furthermore, this lion doesnt appear with snowflake inlays which you’ll need to reference the database I’ve sent you. The last batch are at 17xxx, any others are faked or mismatched SNs. Sorry, but the claim stands



Well - we´ll have to see about that - so far I´ve proven you 2-3 years wrong with regards to the peghead shape.



For now I have only some blurry pics of the banjo in question - I´ll wait for some more detailed and sharp ones to pop up - before coming up with further statements/views/conclusions.






 






 

banjotrader - Posted - 07/17/2019:  07:49:21


Polle, sorry but you haven't proved anything wrong... Your basis is founded on inlays that are on faked and mismatched SN banjos. This snowflake ended in 17XXX, which is ~2yrs from when the typeB came about. I'm not going to debate back-forth. I'm using rough guesses for the Type B start time, but its nowhere near 17XXX (unless you want to debate the accuracy of Tsumura/Guenter banjos i.e 12056, etc...)

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/17/2019:  07:52:36


quote:

Originally posted by JackRyanNPU

How have you proven anyone wrong? If Im not mistaken, several different instances has Peter had to correct you on banjos that you personally had in your hands... some of them even being reproductions. 


Peter is your best bet on finding accurate research regarding these amazing and legendary banjos. 


If I were you, I would definitely welcome any and all input that Peter has. His claims are not baseless like so many others.



Firstly - why don´t you let Peter speak for himself?


Secondly - I do have all or most of Peter´s inputs - as he has been using me for some years - as a sparring partner in his great NPU and company research.


Thirdly - Peter doesn´t - much to his regret  and a cause for him  stalking and attacking me in the past plus getting expelled from BHO twice on basis of this - not have a copy of my extended database - inclusive of my comprehensive documentations and pics archives.


So - who´s the leading expert these days?  There were some fantastic guys in the past - friendly and sharing - I loved ping-ponging with them - and none of us were afraid admitting any mistakes etc. .- Oh, do I miss them - but you and Peter were/are not among these - I do have a word describing both of you - but I won´t use it here - otherwise the Mod´s will maybe/most likely expel me as well. LOL!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/17/2019:  08:25:59


quote:

Originally posted by banjotrader

Polle, sorry but you haven't proved anything wrong... Your basis is founded on inlays that are on faked and mismatched SN banjos. This snowflake ended in 17XXX, which is ~2yrs from when the typeB came about. I'm not going to debate back-forth. I'm using rough guesses for the Type B start time, but its nowhere near 17XXX (unless you want to debate the accuracy of Tsumura/Guenter banjos i.e 12056, etc...)




Oh Peter - for your own sake - please stop.



For years you wanted to study my extended database and its attached documentations and pics archive - but no - as you IMO didn´t know how to come to conclusions on basis of this.



So let me tell you - the Type B Silver Bell peghead was for the first time introduced very early 1925 - and generally introduced/used mid 1927  - during the 2-1/4 years in-between it was frequently used on various style examples.



Your misinterpretation/lack of knowledge as demonstrated above clearly underlines my reason for not giving you access to my extended DB.



So - it all ends here - as told in another recent thread I´ll hopefully come up with various blog articles over the next half year or so - with regards to this and many other related topics.

banjotrader - Posted - 07/17/2019:  08:27:29


that was a bunch of BS! I can't be bothered - sorry. I moved on from your childish spats in the past a long time ago. I see you've unfriended me on Facebook as well (for the 4th time) - I'm sorry you just can't get along with people. All the best. I do sincerely mean that.

JackRyanNPU - Posted - 07/17/2019:  10:06:27


Polle cannot stand to be wrong.



His childish remarks are the reason that so many assume he is dead and his great-grandchildren are using his account to (poorly) abuse and insult other members.


Edited by - JackRyanNPU on 07/17/2019 10:08:30

ldieckow - Posted - 07/17/2019:  11:04:16


Hi Mike. Videos of my set, The Banjo Summit's set, and a song or two of Tyler, Juergen, and myself from an afterglow concert are on my facebook page

ldieckow - Posted - 07/17/2019:  11:15:39


I now sincerely wish I had never started this thread and I really wish I'd been smart enough to never mention a type of banjo a friend plays. I will never do that again if I ever post here again. I also will never share any info about that friends banjo with anyone as it none of your business. Now please take your petty child like argument somewhere else as I'm begging the moderators to delete or lock down this post.

mike gregory - Posted - 07/17/2019:  12:16:38


What is WRONG with you folks?



Lance says that it was FUN, jamming until the wee hours with a couple of people, one of whom played a specific banjo.



And then, AS IF IT WERE IMPORTANT, a bunch of you start arguing about how it could not POSSIBLY have been REALLY fun, since THAT particular banjo is somehow WRONG.



And  it develops into a big ol' FIGHT!



At the risk of injecting RELIGION into this discussion....

Have ANY of you seen the movie "The Name of the Rose"?



It's a mystery story about a murder in a monastery.



And it opens with two groups of monks arguing about

"DID Jesus OWN the clothes He wore?"

One group says if He OWNED them, then He did not practice PERFECT poverty.

The OTHER group says that if He did NOT own them, then He did not fulfill the prophecy where the line goes "for MY garments, they cast lots." (Because they here not truly HIS garments.)



And tempers flare, and somebody ends up dead, and Sean Connery, as "Brother Hugo of Baskerville" ( GOTTA LOVE THAT NAME!!) has to solve it.



But it's NOT WORTH FIGHTING OVER. Just like Banjo Authenticity ain't worth fighting over, UNLESS ! Unless you are BUYING a banjo,  based on its "authenticity".



Which NONE of you combatants were.



If I may change just ONE LETTER in a famous quote, so as to make it banjo-appropriate:



"Can't we all just get aSong?"



-Rodney King-

csacwp - Posted - 07/17/2019:  13:00:19


quote:

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

quote:

Originally posted by banjotrader

Polle, sorry but you haven't proved anything wrong... Your basis is founded on inlays that are on faked and mismatched SN banjos. This snowflake ended in 17XXX, which is ~2yrs from when the typeB came about. I'm not going to debate back-forth. I'm using rough guesses for the Type B start time, but its nowhere near 17XXX (unless you want to debate the accuracy of Tsumura/Guenter banjos i.e 12056, etc...)




Oh Peter - for your own sake - please stop.



For years you wanted to study my extended database and its attached documentations and pics archive - but no - as you IMO didn´t know how to come to conclusions on basis of this.



So let me tell you - the Type B Silver Bell peghead was for the first time introduced very early 1925 - and generally introduced/used mid 1927  - during the 2-1/4 years in-between it was frequently used on various style examples.



Your misinterpretation/lack of knowledge as demonstrated above clearly underlines my reason for not giving you access to my extended DB.



So - it all ends here - as told in another recent thread I´ll hopefully come up with various blog articles over the next half year or so - with regards to this and many other related topics.






Polle, do you have non-mismatched examples you could provide of the Type B headstock appearing on earlier banjos? My experience leads me to side with Peter on this issue.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/17/2019:  14:08:32


Okay, guys, can we please act like adults instead of kids? Enough of this flaming each other. Any more of it and there will be a time out for the perpetrators.

You can discuss and debate, you can agree to disagree, you cannot flame, call names, etc., it's a rule breaker.

Alvin Conder - Posted - 07/17/2019:  14:49:29


Man...everybody play nice! Please, we are talking music. The original poster had fun and just wanted to share that experience. Then I forget, fun is almost a forbidden thing in the 21st Century.

I understand more than most how much these instruments mean to us, and how important originality is, but it is never so important that a civil discussion has to be sacrificed to force a point. It’s just not worth it.

Your punishment should be that you all get the Kay banjo you all learned to play on as kids as your only instrument until you learn to get along.

Greenmeat - Posted - 07/17/2019:  15:50:53


I'm with Lance on this one! This forum does NOT appreciate real players enough and it should --- SO, they all end up leaving and that should not be! If you really want to learn to play OR about the 4 string banjo, then you should want as many of these people as the forum could get. However, as a group you DON'T do this. Too much -- string gauges -- what kind of a banjo should I play -- and all that. Just pick a banjo and try to play it. We all (I for one) would try to help. So let's respect the ones like Lance who can play!! Please be civil and respectful of people who have put much time into the wonderful banjo!!!! Eddy Davis

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 07/17/2019:  16:11:40


I'm with Lance too. I don't think any of these armchair quarterbacks have a clue how to actually play this instrument.

Banjotrading - Posted - 07/17/2019:  16:49:12


Cant play, dont have an ear for outstanding music, but can insult and pick apart someone's Instrument. I dont care what instrument Tyler plays, you can count on it being played nothing short of outstanding.

banjotrader - Posted - 07/17/2019:  18:21:27


Back to the Allfrets discussion. Aside from concerns I've flagged, this last convention was a particularly telling one for me and MANY of my counter parts.



The schedule, performers, workshops, etc... completely missed the boat on the most active and growing community of top ranked players in the world - Irish Tenor Banjo. Sometimes I feel there is no attention given to specific genres, because the extremely small inner circle, can't relate to it and would leave them in the dust.



Although I'm glad Lance had fun with his friends, I find it mostly self-gratifying - as I'd be bored out of my mind listening to music and people I've never heard of. I know that goes both ways, but it can't go that way if the mindset is close-minded, and uninvited.



As an added blow, a vote took place at this event by the executive... Unanimously voting down the potential for linking their now defunct Facebook group to a network of 7000+ members of other "fretted" musical instrument genres... Just a cold "no thanks" type response from the president himself. No extended offers to join, help, nothing.



So, I'm really not sorry to see it fail... Although it may have come across as a win at the particular event, it seems funny to me that all that is left is a small circle of like-styled players in an association called AllFrets.


Edited by - banjotrader on 07/17/2019 18:24:14

AldenS - Posted - 07/17/2019:  18:42:46


All this reminded me of this old favourite. No offence meant to anyone, just a lighthearted take on the importance of perspective. Take from it what you will. I hope someone gets a laugh.





 xkcd.com/1095/



 

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/18/2019:  04:39:40


Note to Greenmeat and Tbert: it is against the rules to question what the moderators do. Neither of you know what goes on before a person is warned or locked or a thread is locked or hidden, so rather than spouting off what you think should happen, why not let us do our jobs?



Posts flaming moderators have been hidden, so if yours is gone, that's why.  Also, posts flaming members have been hidden and any posts quoting them have been hidden.



Here's the rule: Posts Questioning a Moderator's Specific Actions: If you disagree with a moderator's actions, contact them or the site owner (Eric Schlange at eric@banjohangout.org). Please note that discussion of overall site policies is allowed, and should generally be placed in the "Improvements and Suggestions" forum.



Hopefully, this will take care of all the bickering on this thread.  


Edited by - Texasbanjo on 07/18/2019 05:01:52

Joel Hooks - Posted - 07/18/2019:  05:42:02


I have been under the impression that Allfrets (formerly the "Fretted Instruments Guild of America") is a breakaway from the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists, and Guitarists founded just before 1900.  That is a lot of history to just let fail.



I seem to remember reading in Fretted Instrument News that the Guild of BMG wanted to include other instruments, particularly the accordion, and many members would not have it so they split off and formed their own group.



Do I have that correct?



While I have no experience or association with Allfrets, several active members of the American Banjo Fraternity (and close friends of mine) are also active members of Allfrets and seem to be genuinely interested in expanding beyond the Shakey's Pizza/ Your Father's Mustache reunion stereotype that us outsiders have of the organization.



That said, there is nothing wrong if their focus is Shakey's Pizza style plectrum (which is my impression but I don't know for a fact) and they should not be attacked for what they like to focus on.



There is always the option for Tenor Banjoists to have their own organization and rallies.



One thing I have been working on with the America Banjo Fraternity is to digitize our newsletter and make available the complete run, in digital form, to any interested member.



If Allfrets would do the same with their Magazine I would join in a second just for that benefit (there are lots of good articles including contributions by Frank Bradbury and George Collins) that I would like to read and have for reference.



 

JackRyanNPU - Posted - 07/18/2019:  18:20:47


You are correct, except the majority of AllFrets couldnt get a gig at Shakey’s. 


So many top shelf players dont attend any more. The good players that do attend are paid. 


The rest of the time is ‘Bye Bye Blues’ that sounds like a bag of frying pans.


Being part of the younger generation, Im interested to see what ends up happening. 


My guess is that AllFrets has about 10 years left and then it’s game over. 


FIGA was better, everyone says it and everyone knows it. 


 


 


quote:

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

I have been under the impression that Allfrets (formerly the "Fretted Instruments Guild of America") is a breakaway from the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists, and Guitarists founded just before 1900.  That is a lot of history to just let fail.



I seem to remember reading in Fretted Instrument News that the Guild of BMG wanted to include other instruments, particularly the accordion, and many members would not have it so they split off and formed their own group.



Do I have that correct?



While I have no experience or association with Allfrets, several active members of the American Banjo Fraternity (and close friends of mine) are also active members of Allfrets and seem to be genuinely interested in expanding beyond the Shakey's Pizza/ Your Father's Mustache reunion stereotype that us outsiders have of the organization.



That said, there is nothing wrong if their focus is Shakey's Pizza style plectrum (which is my impression but I don't know for a fact) and they should not be attacked for what they like to focus on.



There is always the option for Tenor Banjoists to have their own organization and rallies.



One thing I have been working on with the America Banjo Fraternity is to digitize our newsletter and make available the complete run, in digital form, to any interested member.



If Allfrets would do the same with their Magazine I would join in a second just for that benefit (there are lots of good articles including contributions by Frank Bradbury and George Collins) that I would like to read and have for reference.



 






 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/01/2019:  04:06:35


quote:

Originally posted by csacwp

Polle, do you have non-mismatched examples you could provide of the Type B headstock appearing on earlier banjos? My experience leads me to side with Peter on this issue.





Well - let´s start with this early 1925 example - with a typical Style B peghead - yet plenty narrower than later found:





And then let´s go on to this early 1926 example - almost as wide as the final version - plus bound:





Oh Dear - my favorite saying about everything Bacon is - "Never Say Never".


Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 08/01/2019 04:08:01

csacwp - Posted - 08/01/2019:  04:13:52


Do you have photos of the complete banjos?

The pegheads look to be the same width to me. One is bound, and that coupled with the lens distortion from the camera makes it appear wider when in fact it is not.

banjotrader - Posted - 08/01/2019:  04:24:04


Half a month later, and you’re still looking at only part of the picture. Have the Mexicans been to the moon, no? But humans have. Keep at it. BTW, the topic has moved on.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 08/01/2019:  04:31:21


quote:

Originally posted by csacwp

Do you have photos of the complete banjos?



The pegheads look to be the same width to me. One is bound, and that coupled with the lens distortion from the camera makes it appear wider when in fact it is not.






Yes - as told you off-line I do have all infos, pics and documentations needed at hand.



But - it does all come down to trust first of all - I don´t have to proof anything - serious people around the globe do trust me unconditionally - that´s why I´ve in the later days also had comprehensive requests regarding your #6 NPU RB - recently purchased, but now for sale again.



John - you´ll simply have to learn - who´s to be trusted?  I do btw. take, that you´ve noticed, how some members have been revealed attacking me in a horrific way - and with the use of nasty trolls - at a related forum?

csacwp - Posted - 08/01/2019:  05:12:45


quote:

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

quote:

Originally posted by csacwp

Do you have photos of the complete banjos?



The pegheads look to be the same width to me. One is bound, and that coupled with the lens distortion from the camera makes it appear wider when in fact it is not.






Yes - as told you off-line I do have all infos, pics and documentations needed at hand.



But - it does all come down to trust first of all - I don´t have to proof anything - serious people around the globe do trust me unconditionally - that´s why I´ve in the later days also had comprehensive requests regarding your #6 NPU RB - recently purchased, but now for sale again.



John - you´ll simply have to learn - who´s to be trusted?  I do btw. take, that you´ve noticed, how some members have been revealed attacking me in a horrific way - and with the use of nasty trolls - at a related forum?






First of all Polle, my No. 6 is not for sale on the open market. I had offered it to one individual privately and I don't appreciate you publicizing my business dealings.



Secondly, in recent days it has become more difficult to trust you. You admitted on Facebook that you created troll accounts and hacked your own website so that you could frame your supposed adversaries, but you have since deleted that post. You have also peddled in fake NPUs in the past, though I think you did so out of ignorance rather than any maliciousness.



I have avoided wading into this mess you've created until now, but I've had enough of your lies. More importantly I've had enough of your spreading of false information all over the web. There are some excellent Bacon historians out there and I don't think you qualify as one of them. You repeatedly have misidentified instruments on this forum and elsewhere, and the blatant fakes in your own collection are a testament to your lack of knowledge. You also routinely show that you known about the historical context in which these instruments existed, and that is worrying. 


Edited by - csacwp on 08/01/2019 05:30:22

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/01/2019:  07:43:00


Enough of this flaming. The topic is locked.

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