Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

118
Banjo Lovers Online


Discussion Forum

Want to hide these Google ads? Join the Players Union!

 All Forums
 Other Topics
 Off-Topic (Not Banjo Related)
 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Late Voting


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/348108

mander - Posted - 11/09/2018:  04:59:48


Here in Oregon we have vote by mail. We can vote as soon as we receive our ballots.



Our son is 19 and this past election was his first "big" election, but not the first time he has received a ballot.



On Tuesday, he comes up the stairs and asks, "Mom, where's my ballot?"

I said, "Wherever you put it."

He goes back downstairs to look for it. A while later he comes back up and says, "I found my ballot. Now what?"

I say, "Look in your Voter's Pamphlet."

He says, "Where is my Voter's Pamphlet?"

I say, "Wherever you put it."

He says, "I just searched my room, I don't know where it is."

I say, "You can go on line and find information there."

He says, "No, I don't want to do that."

I ask, "Would you like me to explain..."

He cuts me off with, "No, I don't need my mother's help with voting."

I say, "That's fine, but it's too late to mail your ballot in, so you'll need to put it in a ballot box at one of the public libraries."

He says "I can do that?"

I say, "Yes, you can do that."

He says, "Sweet."



He gets in his car and drives to my mother's house. His uncle tells him she isn't home, she went to the Old Goats for breakfast. He drives to the restaurant, finds his grandmother, sits down at her table and opens up his ballot, and asks, "Grammy, how do I vote?"

Grammy looks at his ballot and asks, "Where's the other sheet?"

He asks, "What other sheet?"

Grammy explains, "You should have two sheets. One with the State races and one with the measures. Where is your second sheet?"

He looks in the envelope, but it isn't there.

Grammy says, "You should turn this one in for a complete ballot. You don't have all the issues."

He asks, "How do I do that?"

Grammy says, "I don't know. That's never happened to me before. Why don't you go home and ask your mother?"

He says, "No, I don't need my mother's help on voting."



He looks at his ballot and asks, "So who do I vote for?"

Grammy says, "Look at your Voter's Pamphlet."

He says, "I don't know where it is."

Grammy says, "You can look on line."

He says, "I don't want to do that."

Grammy says, "You could go home and ask your mother."

He says, "No, I don't need my mother's help on voting."

Grammy says, "Suit yourself, but I can't help you. You are in a different district and I don't know who these people are or anything about these measures. You'll have to work it out yourself."



He sits there a moment and decides on the tried and true method of closing one's eyes and playing pin the tail on the donkey. (admit, we've all been there.) He takes his ballot to the library and puts it in the ballot box.



That was Tuesday.

Last night, we're by the fire getting warm and he says, "Oh, I think I mailed the wrong ballot."

I said, "What?"

He said, "I think I put the wrong ballot in the ballot box. I was down in my room and I found the ballot for this election. I think the ballot I filled out was from the last election."

I said, "Oh."

He said, "Next election, I'm going to have to find someone who will make sure I vote early."

I laughed. "Well, you're going to have to find yourself a girl friend, because your mother isn't going to do it for you."



I probably shouldn't have told that story, but I think it's funny.


Edited by - mander on 11/09/2018 05:03:24

Tobus - Posted - 11/09/2018:  05:13:28


Wow. And to think that people fought and died for this right...

mander - Posted - 11/09/2018:  05:43:45


Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like the First Amendment. One is taught in school how noble it is (and it is, I'm not saying that it isn't) but then you grow up and find out, that it works for people you don't agree with, too. Gosh, nabbit. :-)

mike gregory - Posted - 11/09/2018:  08:03:43


As a prize winning writer of short items, I salute your skill in posting such a taut mix of humor and sadness.

And until the next election, any time he complains about anything the politicians are doing, remind him it's ENTIRELY his fault, for not casting the winning vote AGAINST whatever or whomever it is, which he opposes.

AndrewD - Posted - 11/09/2018:  09:13:22


I agree with Mike. When you vote you should be issued with a card saying you voted. If you can't show the card you shouldn't be allowed to complain.

Owen - Posted - 11/09/2018:  10:03:20


...and if you can't show your card, your shouldn't be allowed to give out a compliment.   What else should be tied to whether or not one has voted?   devil  



Edit:  Heck, I see an opportunity for an expanded bureaucracy... a tribunal of sorts, to decide whether an utterance is a compliment or a complaint.  Anybody who thinks an idea should be judged on its merit must be some kind of a nut!!  cheeky


Edited by - Owen on 11/09/2018 10:13:05

DC5 - Posted - 11/09/2018:  10:14:53


quote:

Originally posted by AndrewD

I agree with Mike. When you vote you should be issued with a card saying you voted. If you can't show the card you shouldn't be allowed to complain.






Kinda gotta politely disagree with you on this  one.  I used to feel the same way, but in our last presidential race there was no candidate I was willing to color in on my ballot.  I did vote for others on the ballot.  I think there is a difference between actively not voting and passively not voting.  Sometimes we are not presented with a choice.

DC5 - Posted - 11/09/2018:  10:22:53


mander , I love your story. My 19 year old is now 26 and he's much more proactive in his voting, so there is hope. But your story is a great example of why I'm opposed to everyone voting. There are some countries that are proposing mandated voting, and the U.S. has thought about it. There were even proposals to pay people to vote. I think only those who want to vote should vote, and I would hope that all voters are informed voters.

According to the authors of "Freakonomics" several years ago Switzerland made it easier for everyone to vote by mailing out ballots to every citizen and voter participation actually went down. Something about the social pressure of being seen at the polling places encouraged voter turnout, but when you could mail it in unseen, you didn't. People are an interesting species.

eagleisland - Posted - 11/09/2018:  10:29:49


quote:

Originally posted by Tobus

Wow. And to think that people fought and died for this right...






 



Amen. I look upon voting as both a responsibility and a privilege. I learn about the candidates and questions, check out sample ballot(s) ahead of time.



In other words, I do my homework.



Mander, it does not please me that your son actually has at least part of a ballot out there.

mander - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:02:05



Mander, it does not please me that your son actually has at least part of a ballot out there.






I know I shouldn't, but I find that funny. Voting is like learning to play the banjo. It takes some folks longer to figure out how to do it. :-)



Dave, I have to say, I think paying people to vote is like paying them to brush their own teeth. At some point, one has to learn to care about themselves, society can't do it all for you.

DC5 - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:17:01


quote:

Originally posted by mander


Mander, it does not please me that your son actually has at least part of a ballot out there.






I know I shouldn't, but I find that funny. Voting is like learning to play the banjo. It takes some folks longer to figure out how to do it. :-)



Dave, I have to say, I think paying people to vote is like paying them to brush their own teeth. At some point, one has to learn to care about themselves, society can't do it all for you.






I like that analogy.  Of course the tooth fairy pays you if you don't brush your teeth. devil



If you pay people to vote then they vote for the money, if you mandate it then they vote because they have to and won't care who they check off on the ballot.  The only way it works is if you want to vote, and put in the effort and study necessary to make sure your vote gets cast.



There is a teaching tool called an exit slip.  I hated them, both when I was a student and as a teacher.  They mandated that we used them for awhile, which drove me nuts.  Students were not allowed out of the class unless they passed in an exit slip about what was learned that day.  In reading them you could easily tell most students just wrote something because they wanted out of the class. Often what they wrote had nothing to do with what we did that day.  Once I even got one that said "Hi Mr. Clark, this is my exit slip.  Have a nice day"

Paul R - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:31:52


In Canada we have the little known and less used option of refusing your ballot. Show up, show your i.d. and your voter's card, and, when you get to your poll, refuse your ballot. If you don't like the choices on the ballot ("a pox on all their houses"), it's a more eloquent way to register your displeasure with the system than just staying home. I've never tried it, but the choice is there.


Edited by - Paul R on 11/09/2018 11:33:22

Tobus - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:35:14


quote:

Originally posted by mander

 



Dave, I have to say, I think paying people to vote is like paying them to brush their own teeth. At some point, one has to learn to care about themselves, society can't do it all for you.






Voting, unfortunately, doesn't just affect the voter.  His or her vote affects everyone.  People who vote randomly, without knowing who they're voting for or what the issues are, are skewing the system dangerously out of whack.  How can we say our elected officials truly represent the will of the people when a significant portion of the people have no idea why they voted the way they did?  It's insane, and a mockery of democratic principles.  It has the potential to collapse our system.



I'm all for returning to the idea of voting being a privilege that's only extended to people who are competent and responsible enough to cast a meaningful vote.  How we determine that status might be tricky, but it needs to be done for all our sakes.  People who can't take voting seriously should not be allowed to wield the power of the vote.

mike gregory - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:50:49


Partial quote:

"I'm all for returning to the idea of voting being a privilege that's only extended to people who are competent and responsible enough to cast a meaningful vote. How we determine that status might be tricky, but it needs to be done for all our sakes."



"Tricky" doesn't BEGIN to describe it.



I recall seeing videos of people doing stupid things, with a comment that says



"And people like THAT are allowed to VOTE!"



I've also seen bumper stickers that say "I AM [ political or religious identification] AND I VOTE!"



From what I've seen on other Internet forums, there are PLENTY of people who would do whatever they might, in order to prevent people with opposing bumper stickers from voting.



(I am a four-chord folkie banjo-hacker with little sense of rhythm, and I vote.)

Owen - Posted - 11/09/2018:  11:55:14


Paul, I think the option of declining one's ballot is only available in provincial elections, and only in ON and the 3 prairie provinces. Here's an interesting tidbit: thestar.com/news/queenspark/20...tion.html

Chris Meakin - Posted - 11/09/2018:  13:17:47


Australia has had compulsory voting since 1924, although the penalty for not voting is somewhat paltry ($20 maybe).



I get the impression most people do try and vote as best they see fit. The number of informal votes is very low (and the number of non-votes even lower).



The actual order of party/names on the ballot paper isn't fixed - Australia uses 'double randomisation' to avoid the donkey vote - and in the last election there were five possible variations (of name order) on the ballot paper.



We always vote on a Saturday, and it is very often held at schools who use the occasion to raise funds for the library and such things (by holding sausage sizzles, raffles, etc).



I'm a big fan of compulsory voting.

Tobus - Posted - 11/09/2018:  14:09:58


quote:

Originally posted by mike gregory

Partial quote:

"I'm all for returning to the idea of voting being a privilege that's only extended to people who are competent and responsible enough to cast a meaningful vote. How we determine that status might be tricky, but it needs to be done for all our sakes."



"Tricky" doesn't BEGIN to describe it.



I recall seeing videos of people doing stupid things, with a comment that says



"And people like THAT are allowed to VOTE!"



I've also seen bumper stickers that say "I AM [ political or religious identification] AND I VOTE!"



From what I've seen on other Internet forums, there are PLENTY of people who would do whatever they might, in order to prevent people with opposing bumper stickers from voting.



(I am a four-chord folkie banjo-hacker with little sense of rhythm, and I vote.)






Just for the record, I mostly said that in frustration and/or jest.  Kind of like saying, "I really think such-and-such group of people all need a good butt-whooping."  In reality, I'm a libertarian-bordering-on-anarchist who doesn't believe my individual liberties are up for public debate, and the concept of voting is nothing more than an institutionalized method of initiating aggression against each other.  But we'll save that for another day.



Inside our current system, I don't see any issue with people voting for what they believe in, even if I disagree with it.  We have a Constitution that limits the powers of government, with great hurdles that must be jumped in order to change the system.  When people work within that system with their legitimate voices, they are exercising the power of the people to get the government they want (or the government they deserve, in most cases).  I don't always agree with the decisions made by the masses, but I mostly respect the people who have the drive to be a real part of it.  What I cannot stand, though, is the people who rig the system, vote with no clue what they're doing, or treat it like a joke.  This includes people who vote based on skin color, good looks, or similar ridiculous reasons.  And I'm sorry, but people who aren't bright enough to figure out how to get to the polls or fill out a ballot don't give me a warm sensation about them making decisions for society.

mander - Posted - 11/09/2018:  15:45:52


Okay, sure, it's embarrassing that my son, or even worse, my mother's grandson, messed up the first time he attempted to vote.

You have to remember, I'm a pig-headed person. My natural inclination is to believe 99.999999 percent of all people who do not agree with me do so because they are ill-informed. I am almost always in the minority. I've had decades to accept the fact that all them other folks don't know what they are doing. I could get mad, but I am totally at peace and accept this.

Now, as much as I try to be informed, I know it is not possible to be one hundred percent sure about anything, ever. For instance, back in the 90s we had a new local fella everyone on my side was promoting as the latest and greatest hope. I read the other side, because I do. They thought he was a ninny. Yeah, well, they would, wouldn't they? Then, I had the misfortune to actually meet the guy. Ninny doesn't even scratch the surface. I didn't care if he agreed with me from A to Z, I was never going to vote for him. He made a splash, but eventually, word spread and his life time career failed to launch. I'm not sure when Oregon finally came up with voter pamphlets, but prior to that time, it was almost impossible to tell from the wording what a "yes" vote meant versus a "no" vote. One of the best laws we ever passed had to do with measure clarity.

mike gregory - Posted - 11/09/2018:  16:01:16


Somebody was telling me about a measure which was DELIBERATELY and CAREFULLY worded so that a NO vote, intended to defeat it, would actually help PASS it, since the people who WANTED it passed had studied the Public Pulse, and dang well KNEW that most off the people were against it.



So, hey, glad to know SOMEBODY has a LAW requiring clarity.



- - - - - -

I still say that IF I could get my name legally changed to "None Of Those Rascals", and get it on the ballot, I could get elected to pretty much ANY position in any country where votes are counted.

mander - Posted - 11/09/2018:  16:10:40


quote:

Originally posted by mike gregory

Somebody was telling me about a measure which was DELIBERATELY and CAREFULLY worded so that a NO vote, intended to defeat it, would actually help PASS it, since the people who WANTED it passed had studied the Public Pulse, and dang well KNEW that most off the people were against it.



So, hey, glad to know SOMEBODY has a LAW requiring clarity.



- - - - - -

I still say that IF I could get my name legally changed to "None Of Those Rascals", and get it on the ballot, I could get elected to pretty much ANY position in any country where votes are counted.






That happened in Oregon. It's why the clarity law was passed. It explains what happens with a "no" vote and what happens with a "yes" vote.  It also explains it there is any project costs or savings to the voter. The ability to make a decision one could feel good about has increased greatly since that law passed.

Paul R - Posted - 11/09/2018:  20:07:28


quote:

Originally posted by mike gregory

Somebody was telling me about a measure which was DELIBERATELY and CAREFULLY worded so that a NO vote, intended to defeat it, would actually help PASS it, since the people who WANTED it passed had studied the Public Pulse, and dang well KNEW that most off the people were against it.



So, hey, glad to know SOMEBODY has a LAW requiring clarity.



- - - - - -

I still say that IF I could get my name legally changed to "None Of Those Rascals", and get it on the ballot, I could get elected to pretty much ANY position in any country where votes are counted.






Be careful what you wish for. One guy legally changed his name to Adam Nobody. During the G7 protests in Toronto, the cops charged the crowd and bashed Mr. Nobody pretty badly.



theglobeandmail.com/news/toron...e1320838/

mike gregory - Posted - 11/09/2018:  20:13:57


As long as Nobody got hurt, who's complaining?

Paul R - Posted - 11/09/2018:  20:47:30


Nobody's complaining, that's who!

5B-Ranch - Posted - 11/09/2018:  20:55:40


On another note.. Voting on property tax increase should only be decided by property owners not by those who rent. One of my pet peeves.

AndrewD - Posted - 11/10/2018:  01:07:18


quote:

Originally posted by 5B-Ranch

On another note.. Voting on property tax increase should only be decided by property owners not by those who rent. One of my pet peeves.






Absolutely. If you rent and your landlord's property tax goes up your rent will remain exactly the same. And of course you have no interest in what that property tax is paying for (schools, roads...) unless you own property. This is such sound logic that we should extend it to say "Only billionaires should decide how much income-tax billionaires pay".

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/10/2018:  04:59:06


AndrewD

It may be that way in the UK, but here in the U.S., many lease contracts have a clause that allows the landlord to raise the rent if taxes and/or insurance goes up. After the first year, unless you sign a new lease, you're a month to month renter and the landlord can raise the rent any time or as many times as he or she wishes.

Our town is going through something like that right now. The rents have gone up over 45% in 2 years because we're in a boom situation. Greed? Probably, but it's called supply and demand. Many who aren't in the oil industry can't make the increased rent and are evicted and have a problem finding housing of any kind that they can afford.

DC5 - Posted - 11/10/2018:  06:51:17


quote:

Originally posted by mander



Now, as much as I try to be informed, I know it is not possible to be one hundred percent sure about anything, ever. For instance, back in the 90s we had a new local fella everyone on my side was promoting as the latest and greatest hope. I read the other side, because I do. They thought he was a ninny. Yeah, well, they would, wouldn't they? Then, I had the misfortune to actually meet the guy. Ninny doesn't even scratch the surface. I didn't care if he agreed with me from A to Z, I was never going to vote for him. He made a splash, but eventually, word spread and his life time career failed to launch. I'm not sure when Oregon finally came up with voter pamphlets, but prior to that time, it was almost impossible to tell from the wording what a "yes" vote meant versus a "no" vote. One of the best laws we ever passed had to do with measure clarity.






Similar story, the first presidential race I remember as a kid was Kennedy vs. Nixon.  My father was the only Republican on the street, that was all Catholic and mostly Irish or Italian.  When I asked my father why he wanted Nixon he said "Because we're Republicans.  You're a Republican too because I'm a Republican and your grandfather is a Republican".  To me this was kind of like we're Protestants because that was how we were born.



Jump ahead to 1972, the first time I could vote.  Listening to my peers in college I supported McGovern, which majorly irked my father.  I worked in the local campaign office, passed out buttons and had a McGovern bumper sticker on my car.  But a couple of weeks before the election I saw a different side of McGovern and when I drove the the polls to cast my first ever vote, with the McGovern sticker on my car, I cast my vote for Nixon.  Of course I was living in Massachusetts at the time so my vote didn't count.  Mass. was the only state that went for McGovern in a landslide victory for Nixon.  Then, after his V.P. resigned over tax fraud, he resigned in disgrace to avoid impeachment over the Watergate break in and cover-up.  Learned a lot about politics in those years.

Owen - Posted - 11/10/2018:  07:10:51


C'mon Andrew... what do you have against those who favour the selective application of principles??     wink

prooftheory - Posted - 11/10/2018:  08:07:03


Politcs, yo.

AndrewD - Posted - 11/10/2018:  08:52:44


quote:

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

AndrewD



It may be that way in the UK, but here in the U.S., many lease contracts have a clause that allows the landlord to raise the rent if taxes and/or insurance goes up. ..




Just about the same here Sherry. I always forget that Americans sometimes miss British sarcasm. I could also have said that only smokers and drinkers should be allowed to vote on tobacco and alcohol tax - but that would be getting even more political and I know not to raise the wrath of the mods. 

Cornflake - Posted - 11/10/2018:  10:28:39


I really like the vote-by-mail that we have established in Oregon. I can sit at my kitchen table, read through the voters pamphlet, discuss the issues and candidates with my wife or call friends. It may even take several days to complete the ballot. I can mail it in or deposit it at a local drop-ff point. Plus, there is a paper ballot, which eliminates the malfunctioning voting machine mess. Plus, I don't have drive to a polling place. The fact that Oregon typically has a significantly higher voting rate than other states demonstrates the success of this system.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/10/2018:  11:33:47


quote:

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

AndrewD



It may be that way in the UK, but here in the U.S., many lease contracts have a clause that allows the landlord to raise the rent if taxes and/or insurance goes up. ..




Just about the same here Sherry. I always forget that Americans sometimes miss British sarcasm. I could also have said that only smokers and drinkers should be allowed to vote on tobacco and alcohol tax - but that would be getting even more political and I know not to raise the wrath of the mods. 






It is sometimes difficult to know whether someone is being sarcastic or serious when it's typed words on paper.  There should be some sort of emogi, I guess, to show what you're saying is sarcastic.  Sorry I missed the sarcasm. 

flyingsquirrelinlay - Posted - 11/10/2018:  11:47:31


If you start specifying who can vote on which issues, pretty soon there will be a whole host of special situations so that eventually only those in power can vote.

monstertone - Posted - 11/10/2018:  12:19:46


 Mander's story of her son''s first voting experience is on one hand, funny, on the other hand sad when you really think about it.



And to think they want to lower the voting age to sixteen. I can see the logic of "you're old enough to serve in the military, so you're old enough to vote." I question that logic. You don't need much smarts to serve in the military, you do as you are told, simple. Maybe we should raise the minimum age to serve in the military.



They tell me the next time I have to renew my drivers license, I have to show proof of citizenship. But not to vote? A legal alien can get a drivers license. I think even an illegal alien can get a drivers license. I have a concealed carry license & it's encoded on my drivers license.  And when I applied for a passport the first time, they would not not accept my original birth certificate as proof of citizenship. It had to be a certified copy,,,of guess what, the original birth certificate! And they let these people, who make these laws, vote?


Edited by - monstertone on 11/10/2018 12:31:00

Paul R - Posted - 11/10/2018:  13:00:31


quote:

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

Originally posted by 5B-Ranch

On another note.. Voting on property tax increase should only be decided by property owners not by those who rent. One of my pet peeves.






Absolutely. If you rent and your landlord's property tax goes up your rent will remain exactly the same. And of course you have no interest in what that property tax is paying for (schools, roads...) unless you own property. This is such sound logic that we should extend it to say "Only billionaires should decide how much income-tax billionaires pay".






We really do need a sarcasm font.

DC5 - Posted - 11/10/2018:  14:17:18







We really do need a sarcasm font.






In the old days of usenet we use to bracket it like so <sarcasm on> make sarcastic statement <sarcasm off>

dawgdoc - Posted - 11/10/2018:  14:23:31


I guess the concept of 'no politics' around here got tossed out the window.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/10/2018:  14:36:11


So, universal suffrage or limited, qualified suffrage? In order to save democracy from it's inherent flaw, perhaps only those who each year pay out more in total taxes than they receive in total benefits be allowed to vote the following year?

That is a philosophical question, not a political one. ; >

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/10/2018:  14:36:38


And, good story, Mander.

DC5 - Posted - 11/10/2018:  14:38:34


In a way, we're discussing the political process, not politics. With the exception of some historical references there was no actual political discussion - or more importantly arguments. I'm guessing that is why the mods have not locked, and have in fact participated. If we started wavering from the voting process to who, or what we should vote for we would cross the line. Just my opinion.

flyingsquirrelinlay - Posted - 11/10/2018:  15:14:13


Bill, you refer to democracy's "inherent flaw"; can you be more specific?

mike gregory - Posted - 11/10/2018:  15:20:03


quote:

Originally posted by DC5






We really do need a sarcasm font.






In the old days of usenet we use to bracket it like so make sarcastic statement








>"Oh, yeah? Says YOU, O mighty Philosopher!!"<





------------------------------------------------------------------



Sarc ON



>Statement<



Sarc OFF

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/10/2018:  16:05:32


David asked---" democracy's "inherent flaw"; can you be more specific?"

Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee said it well----"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. ---"

Owen - Posted - 11/10/2018:  16:12:40


quote:

Originally posted by dawgdoc

I guess the concept of 'no politics' around here got tossed out the window.






I'm led to believe the policy is "it depends."     wink   



As for a sarcasm emoji, I can see its usefulness in some situations, but I also enjoy seeing how outrageous a statement can be and still have some [and I don't exclude myself] accept it.  I think some of that comes from people not following a thread and/or just reading parts of posts and then rushing to offer a reply.   



OTOH I think that on occasion, some try to cover their goofy logic and/or ill-conceived posts claiming "sarcasm,"  after the fact.   



But, what do I know?  As my maw used to say, "It takes all kinds."


Edited by - Owen on 11/10/2018 16:26:27

monstertone - Posted - 11/10/2018:  17:44:30


Only when you have rent control does the rent not increase when the property tax increases. And when the cost of doing business reduces the profit margin below a certain level, the smart money usually begins divesting in the business.

Now I've heard this argument about tax moneys being appropriated for unpopular causes for decades. And there are a ton of issues I'm not pleased with either. But that's government & this is the Banjo Hangout. Besides, it's dinner time.

Contrary to what some would have us believe, the USA is not a Democracy, it is a Republic! There is a difference.

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.078125