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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Practical use of Music Theory presented in a fun way


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/339993

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Mooooo - Posted - 02/16/2018:  21:18:55


 



I want to learn to play a classical piece on the banjo, It is very famous and I can't remember who wrote it or the name of it. I think some of you guys who know about modes and progressions can help me figure out what it is by the following description.



If the song is in G the chord progression for the first part in 2/4 would be:



|G|G|D7|G|C|G|D7|G| 



then after this part he hits an 1/8 note stacatto C chord and with 16th notes, runs up and then down the C Lydian mode, then comes a G chord and he runs up and down the B Phrygian mode, then an Am (or maybe the D7) chord and runs up and down the A Dorian Mode then a G chord and up and down the major scale then he repeats the modes and goes on with the tune. I guess you could just call them all the G scale starting at different degrees. I think that with this explanation someone can come up with this tune. Please and thank you.



This is turning into an ongoing question, so here are some "generally" agreed upon rules:



1. the guy who guessed the previous tune gets to describe the next one. After a 2 hour grace period, any member of the BHO can pose a new Tune to name.



2. Try to make it a bit easier than impossible.



3. Keep the descriptions Theory-based.



4. The guy who describes the song announces the winner and awards the correct answerer some imaginary prize



List of tunes already attempted:



  1. Piano Sonata no. 16 in C major. - Mozart - guessed by rfink1913           

  2. In the Hall of the Mountain King - Edvard Grieg:- guessed by Mooooo

  3. Suite No. 1 in C major - J.S. Bach - guessed by Chuckv97                     

  4. Spring Is Here - Jo Stafford - guessed by Chuckv97

  5. Marche Slave, Op. 31 - Tchaikovsky - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

  6. Four Strong Winds - IAN & SYLVIA - too hard to guess

  7. Light My Fire - Morrison, Krieger, Densmore, and Manzarek - guessed by rfink1913

  8. Green Onions - Cropper/ Jackson/ Jones / Steinberg - guessed by Chuckv97

  9. Habanera from ''Carmen Suite No.2'' - Georges Bizet - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

10. The Star Spangled Banner - Francis Scott Key - guessed by Canadian Chuckv97

11. 4'33" - John Cage - guessed by Mooooo

12. The Blue Danube Waltz - Johann Strauss - Guessed by Rawhide Creek

13. Symphony No. 25 in G minor, K. 183/173dB Allegro con brio - Mozart - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

14. Michelle - Lennon and McCartney - guessed by Mooooo

15. Also sprach Zarathustra - Richard Strauss - guessed by FlyinEagle

16. Prelude in C# minor - Rachmaninov - guessed by rfink1913

17. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik - Mozart - guessed by Mooooo

18. Entry Of The Gladiators - Julius Fucik - guessed by puddinfangers

19. Appalachian Spring - Aaron Copeland - guessed by puddinfangers along with bonus pts

20. Star Trek Theme - Alexander Courage - guessed by Mooooo

21. The Rite of Spring - Stravinsky - guessed by Rawhide Creek

22. Detroit City - Mel Tillis/Danny Hill - guessed by Mooooo

23. "Unfinished" Symphony, first movement, second theme - Schubert' - guessed by rfink1913

24. The Liberty Bell March (Monty Python Theme) - John Philip Sousa - guessed by Chuckv97

25. The Phantom Regiment - Leroy Anderson - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

26. Ballad of a thin man - Bob Dylan - too hard to guess

27. The Fightin' Side of Me - Merle Haggard - guessed by Chuckv97

28. Lover's Concerto - Linzer and Randel - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

29. I Walk the Line - Johnny Cash - guessed by Chuckv97

30. In the Mood - Joe Garland - guessed by Chuckv97

31. Misty - Erroll Garner / Johnny Burke - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

32. I Will Survive - Dino Fekaris / Frederick J. Perren - guessed by Mooooo

33. One Tin Soldier - Brian Potter / Dennis Earle Lambert - guessed by mmuussiiccaall.

34. Tallis Canon - Thomas Tallis - guessed by Chuckv97

35. Snowflake Reel - Wally Traugott - guessed by Mooooo

36. Bye Bye Blues - Lown / Hamm / Bennett / Gray - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

37. Blue Jay Way - George Harrison - guessed by Mooooo

38. Hava Nagila - Idelsohn/Danoff - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

39. Pinball Wizzard - Pete Townshend - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

40. Sixteen Tons - Tenesse Ernie Ford - guessed by Chuckv97

41. America - Bernstein/Sondheim - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

42. Fox on the Run - Tony Hazzard - guessed by puddinfangers

43. All the good time are past and gone - Jerry Walter - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

44. Little Maggie - Trad. - guessed by Mooooo

45. Straight, No Chaser - Thelonious Monk - guessed by Puddinfangers

46. Mountain Dew - Bascom Lamar Lunsford and Scotty Wiseman - guessed by Mooooo

47. Baby Elephant Walk - Henry Mancini - guessed by Mooooo

48. House of the Rising Sun - Traditional guessed by mmuussiiccaall

49. In The Year 2525 - Zager And Evans guessed by Mooooo

50. La Cucaracha - Tradicional - guessed by mmuussiiccaall

51.In the Still of the Night - Hoagy Carmichael / Jo Trent - too hard to guess

52. Every Time We Say Goodbye - Cole Porter - guessed by Mooooo

53. Pick Up The Pieces - Ball, Duncan, Gorrie, McIntyre, Stuart and McIntosh - guessed by FlyinEagle


Edited by - Mooooo on 09/11/2018 11:52:30

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/17/2018:  07:24:32


That first section chord progression reveals precisely...nothing! There are perhaps about a billion tunes using the same chords. You also don't state whether these chords are root position or inversions. The other part, with all that up-and-down modal stuff also says little because you don't say how far the passage goes up before it comes down again. There is also only sixteenth notes specified for part of the second passage, but not for the later G chord and Am/D7 chords (that chord confusion is also too ambiguous to determine what's actually going on).



Perhaps if you posted an MP3 of yourself humming or singing, or picking, the notes of the melody line of the piece, or part of it, you might receive the answers you're looking for. I'm assuming you at least know what the piece sounds like.



I'd like to help, but more and better information is needed.


Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 02/17/2018 07:35:48

FlyinEagle - Posted - 02/17/2018:  07:45:15


Name that tune level: Wizard

I agree, I think you will have to hum it.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  09:34:52


It goes all the way up and then back down the modes without a pause. The staccato chords are 16th notes with a 16th note rest. It may be in 4/4 in which case the chords at the beginning should be half the length, so only 1 measure of G...etc. You don't need that part, just play the modes and if you know the tune, you will hear it when you play it. Give it a try. I have seen on the hangout someone get a tune with a lot less info than this. he simply wrote dadadadadadadada--dadadada---dadadada....something like that and someone got it. I think someone who picks up their banjo can get it easily. The first part means a lot more than nothing when you play it with the next part together, but you can get it with only the mode part...it is there for context.

rfink1913 - Posted - 02/17/2018:  09:57:48


I got it. Mozart Piano Sonata no. 16 in C major.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  10:33:30


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

I got it. Mozart Piano Sonata no. 16 in C major.






You are a Wizard!!! Thank You very much. For the guys who thought it was impossible, can you tell us how you figured it out?



This tune seems almost impossible for a man of my talents to play alone on the banjo, but I will try to make some simplified version with the flavor of the original of the first part



Piano Sonata no. 16 in C maj


Edited by - Mooooo on 02/17/2018 10:43:46

FlyinEagle - Posted - 02/17/2018:  11:44:57


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

I got it. Mozart Piano Sonata no. 16 in C major.






*drops mic*

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  11:54:44


quote:

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

I got it. Mozart Piano Sonata no. 16 in C major.






*drops mic*






Hillarious.



You'll notice 1 post since Nov. 2017...he was waiting for this opportunity to impress, now he's out like a light.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/17/2018:  14:08:50


Scale passages are still scale passages and can be rather meaningless without the accompanying harmony or a starting note (in this case, the 6th note of the key of the piece). The melody of the first part (where you merely indicated a chord progression) would have more easily identified this for me.

For future reference when trying to get information, it's better to state up-and-down scale passages as passages in the key of the piece, rather than the confusing references to modes. In your example, that would be C chord, beginning with "E," or in Mozart's original, F chord starting on "A." It would also help to state the last note where it starts downward.

I am very surprised that someone actually took the time to sort this out for you.

Have fun learning it. If you know your banjo's fret board and a little about melodic banjo picking style, it may not be as difficult as you think. Most of it is pretty basic musically.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  14:23:19


quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

I am very surprised that someone actually took the time to sort this out for you.



Have fun learning it. If you know your banjo's fret board and a little about melodic banjo picking style, it may not be as difficult as you think. Most of it is pretty basic musically.






I am not surprised at all, the info was there, as I said earlier, I have seen people identify songs with less information. But thanks for continuing to tell me how badly I described this tune. laugh Perhaps next time I will supply the sheet music and someone can read the name off of it for me.

mike gregory - Posted - 02/17/2018:  14:42:55


I'm listening to a piano player do it, on the link supplied above.

Even though it seems AS IF you're going to be 83 strings short of the full piano arsenal, I do recall some guy ( Sandy Bull) doing classical music on the old fiver, and, by gosh, he DID it, and quite well.

I would have tried name the first several notes.
But it would have taken me hours, at my electronic piano, with the note names taped to the keys, to get a dozen notes of the melody off that Mozart tune!

Here's an old familiar number:

B C D B C A B G A

( it's DUELING BANJOS)

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/17/2018:  17:56:07


quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

I am very surprised that someone actually took the time to sort this out for you.



Have fun learning it. If you know your banjo's fret board and a little about melodic banjo picking style, it may not be as difficult as you think. Most of it is pretty basic musically.






I am not surprised at all, the info was there, as I said earlier, I have seen people identify songs with less information. But thanks for continuing to tell me how badly I described this tune. laugh Perhaps next time I will supply the sheet music and someone can read the name off of it for me.




I was only trying to help both with this piece and with some hints as to how you might get a quicker response should you need help on another. I will continue to believe that although the information was perhaps there, that it could have been presented in a somewhat more usable form.  I still consider it lucky you found someone to take the time to parse what you were attempting to state, and I also think that your "people identify songs with less information" doesn't always apply, as it can depend on the song involved, people's familiarity with the song, and most importantly, how that "less information" had been presented. I hope you keep that in mind when asking about other pieces.



I did not mean to insult you. I will not blame you, however, for your rather snide response, as perhaps my presentation left something to be desired in the way of tact. Sorry.



 

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:19:11


quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

"people identify songs with less information" doesn't always apply, as it can depend on the song involved, people's familiarity with the song, and most importantly, how that "less information" had been presented. I hope you keep that in mind when asking about other pieces.





Here's how it all started...someone a long time ago was talking about this piece and said that it cycled through the modes. That was it, they said Sonata in C major by Mozart Cycles through the modes...I never knew the name of the song nor the name of the composer, but I knew exactly the tune he was talking about. I have since forgotten the name of the piece and the composer so I searched and searched the archives and couldn't come up with what I was looking for. It was over a year ago, I believe...I think it was Rawhide Creek, but I'm not sure. It was someone who usually comments in the Theory section. So I posed my question as closely to his explanation as I remembered, plus a little more. I hoped the person who I am describing would read this and let me know the name of the tune. Here is a link to the less information thread banjohangout.org/topic/339838/#4296643



Thanks for your concern as to how I might better ask questions on the hangout.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:25:54


quote:

Originally posted by mike gregory

I'm listening to a piano player do it, on the link supplied above.



Even though it seems AS IF you're going to be 83 strings short of the full piano arsenal, I do recall some guy ( Sandy Bull) doing classical music on the old fiver, and, by gosh, he DID it, and quite well.



I would have tried name the first several notes.

But it would have taken me hours, at my electronic piano, with the note names taped to the keys, to get a dozen notes of the melody off that Mozart tune!



Here's an old familiar number:



B C D B C A B G A



( it's DUELING BANJOS)






I hope I'm not being too pedantic by stating that Mozart's piano had fewer notes than the modern instruments, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 5 1/2 octaves.



There have actually been a few others who have played classical music on the banjo. Much of it doesn't require as many notes as one might think. The real problem with some classical music is that so many of those pieces have counter melodies and other forms of counterpoint which can very easily be lost on a measly 5 strings. Some Mozart isn't too bad, but I think a Bach fugue or three part invention might be a bit difficult. (Heck, even "Row, Row, Row Your Boat' is pretty impossible once that second "voice" comes in!)



By the way, that's a very recognizable and easy way to present "Dueling Banjos." That one I spotted right away. Of course it's a very recognizable tune (it's been drummed into everybody's heads for decades, now!)

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:40:19


quote:

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

"people identify songs with less information" doesn't always apply, as it can depend on the song involved, people's familiarity with the song, and most importantly, how that "less information" had been presented. I hope you keep that in mind when asking about other pieces.





Here's how it all started...someone a long time ago was talking about this piece and said that it cycled through the modes. That was it, they said Sonata in C major by Mozart Cycles through the modes...I never knew the name of the song nor the name of the composer, but I knew exactly the tune he was talking about. I have since forgotten the name of the piece and the composer so I searched and searched the archives and couldn't come up with what I was looking for. It was over a year ago, I believe...I think it was Rawhide Creek, but I'm not sure. It was someone who usually comments in the Theory section. So I posed my question as closely to his explanation as I remembered, plus a little more. I hoped the person who I am describing would read this and let me know the name of the tune. Here is a link to the less information thread banjohangout.org/topic/339838/#4296643



Thanks for your concern as to how I might better ask questions on the hangout.






BZZZT!



Nope, wasn’t me.  I wouldn’t have said it “cycles through the modes”, and I likely would have referred to it as “The Simple Sonata”, its well-known nickname.



But thanks for playing . . .

Mooooo - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:50:05


I beg your pardon Russ

mike gregory - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:55:02


I don't read music.
Which is why it would have taken me hours.
And why I picked one that I am constantly explaining to NON-banjo players, is NOT a suprememly complex piece, but basically a scale exercise and three chords, played with a LOT of possible chord position variations, at lightning speed.

I'm not taking sides on this, IF there are sides to BE taken.

mike gregory - Posted - 02/17/2018:  18:56:47


PS:Like all of your other antics, pedantics is perfectly fine by me!

rfink1913 - Posted - 02/18/2018:  10:51:50


Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.

That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."

Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.

Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/18/2018:  12:06:40


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






I look forward to learning whatever you care to share, Thanks for naming that tune. For the correct answer you have won a



Brand New Car!!!!



Thanks again.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/18/2018:  12:51:02


O.k. here's an easy one, what is the title of the piece that runs up the minor scale to the 5th and then falls down chromatically in M3rds from there.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/18/2018:  13:37:54


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

O.k. here's an easy one, what is the title of the piece that runs up the minor scale to the 5th and then falls down chromatically in M3rds from there.






That spooky tune they play in cartoons for Halloween.  Edvard Grieg: In the Hall of the Mountain King that's what I think.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/18/2018:  13:40:42


Nope but that's a good one that I used to play on an old Hammond D with tone cabinet, drove my ex-wife crazy.


 

Mooooo - Posted - 02/18/2018:  13:45:40


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Nope but that's a good one that I used to play on an old Hammond D with tone cabinet, drove my ex-wife crazy.






I really thought I had it. Take a listen In the Hall of the Mountain King Eddy Grieg  For anyone who doesn't know it..


Edited by - Mooooo on 02/18/2018 13:48:28

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/18/2018:  16:00:34


Yep that's it! Lot's of great melodies in the Suite where it's from.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/18/2018:  16:03:47


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Yep that's it! Lot's of great melodies in the Suite where it's from.






Great, What do I win?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/18/2018:  16:39:02


I crown you "king of the mountain" which title comes from this old goat

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/18/2018:  19:13:01


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






Like you, I would never equate this Mozart piece with modes. To me it's merely a series of runs up and down the C major scale, harmonized with chords from the key of C major.



Maybe what prevented me from muddling through those modal assignments to find the answer was simply that my mind tends toward putting things in the simplest terms. I am actually pretty familiar with classical music, although I've always considered this particular movement of this particular sonata to be a bit of a pot boiler, not one of Mozart's greats, and I avoid it whenever possible. 



 

Mooooo - Posted - 02/18/2018:  20:15:59


Well guys, I studied one theory course in music while in college about 30 years ago so I wasn't aware that it was bad manners to describe things in terms of modes. For me it was the quickest way to describe what I was hearing. While I read a lot about theory on various web sites, I am not anywhere near a professional theorist, as you can tell. But I'm learning.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/18/2018:  20:39:26


quote:

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Yep that's it! Lot's of great melodies in the Suite where it's from.






Actually, there are two “Peer Gynt” suites, commonly referred to, curiously, as No. 1 and No. 2 . . .

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/18/2018:  20:49:59


quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






Like you, I would never equate this Mozart piece with modes. To me it's merely a series of runs up and down the C major scale, harmonized with chords from the key of C major.



Maybe what prevented me from muddling through those modal assignments to find the answer was simply that my mind tends toward putting things in the simplest terms. I am actually pretty familiar with classical music, although I've always considered this particular movement of this particular sonata to be a bit of a pot boiler, not one of Mozart's greats, and I avoid it whenever possible. 



 






I’ve always considered that scalar section to be a bridge from C major (with the Alberti bass) to G major.  But that’s based on what I was taught, years ago, in “Larger Forms of Musical Composition”.  It is a strategy that appears in other works, and in works by other composers before and after.  


Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 02/18/2018 20:51:13

FlyinEagle - Posted - 02/19/2018:  04:22:32


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






Very cool.  Welcome!



I’m curious, what sparked your interest in banjo and what style of play are you looking to get into?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/19/2018:  09:43:18


quote:

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

I’ve always considered that scalar section to be a bridge from C major (with the Alberti bass) to G major.  But that’s based on what I was taught, years ago, in “Larger Forms of Musical Composition”.  It is a strategy that appears in other works, and in works by other composers before and after.  





While that could be one way of looking at it, this is not so much a bridge, in my opinion, but a series of chords which cadence on the G chord, which is just the dominant chord of C major, the key the whole thing starts in. That cadence there leads right back to a repeat of the passage in C, and  after the repeat, the initial change is to C7, which is the true point of modulation. In my opinion the scale passages, as well as the Alberti bass, function as structural elements of the themes of this movement and therefore are more than a bridge.



Music does lead to varied analyses, and yours certainly is as equally valid as mine.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/19/2018:  11:27:45


So, in your opinion, the movement is a binary form rather than a sonata form?

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/22/2018:  14:25:56


Sheet music for those who wish to follow along:





 

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/24/2018:  20:22:34


quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

I’ve always considered that scalar section to be a bridge from C major (with the Alberti bass) to G major.  But that’s based on what I was taught, years ago, in “Larger Forms of Musical Composition”.  It is a strategy that appears in other works, and in works by other composers before and after.  





While that could be one way of looking at it, this is not so much a bridge, in my opinion, but a series of chords which cadence on the G chord, which is just the dominant chord of C major, the key the whole thing starts in. That cadence there leads right back to a repeat of the passage in C, and  after the repeat, the initial change is to C7, which is the true point of modulation. In my opinion the scale passages, as well as the Alberti bass, function as structural elements of the themes of this movement and therefore are more than a bridge.



Music does lead to varied analyses, and yours certainly is as equally valid as mine.






It appears that mine agrees with, among many, many others, that of the late musicologist Stanley Sadie:



[1788] . . . A little later, at the time of the last symphonies, came the popular sonata ‘for beginners’ k545.  Its first movement includes Mozart’s only true example—there is a remote parallel in the finale of the k387 quartet—of a recapitulation beginning in the subdominant; it is not, however, merely a transposed version of the exposition, for in order to fix the home key more firmly the transition moves on to the dominant before settling in the tonic.  Even in conventionally planned sonata movements [underscore added] Mozart was inclined to adjust the recapitulation transition in order to consolidate the tonic.



On the form and components of a sonata (or sonata-allegro) movement, see also The Larger Forms of Musical Composition by Percy Goetschius.  Or any reputable dictionary of music.  Or even (shudder) Wikipedia at en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form.


Edited by - Rawhide Creek on 02/24/2018 20:32:38

rfink1913 - Posted - 02/25/2018:  23:41:13


 


I'm interested in clawhammer playing -- I'm in process of getting my hands on an open-back instrument. I taught myself fingerpicking on the guitar as part of a midlife crisis :), and now I guess I'm looking to find a project that will allow me to become an old fool.

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






Very cool.  Welcome!



I’m curious, what sparked your interest in banjo and what style of play are you looking to get into?






 

rfink1913 - Posted - 02/25/2018:  23:52:20




Musicologists have named cadences like the one at mm. 11-12 the "bifocal close" - the same cadence can lead to V, as in the exposition, or back to I, as in the recapitulation. (It's like a lens with two "focal lengths," in the metaphorical sense.) The trick is to arrive "on the dominant," without quite being "in the dominant." See this article by Robert Winter, which is, unfortunately, behind a paywall, but you can read just enough of it to get the idea...



 


Edited by - rfink1913 on 02/25/2018 23:55:17

FlyinEagle - Posted - 02/26/2018:  04:30:35


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

 


I'm interested in clawhammer playing -- I'm in process of getting my hands on an open-back instrument. I taught myself fingerpicking on the guitar as part of a midlife crisis :), and now I guess I'm looking to find a project that will allow me to become an old fool.

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913

Well, I don't know much about banjo playing (yet...that's why I'm hanging out around here without posting anything), but in my day job I am a music historian and professor at UCLA who's been playing the piano for 40+ years.



That sonata is something every piano student plays, and you did a good job of describing the gestural shape of the up and down scale passages that come in after the first melodic phrase. (I would never have thought to assign modal types to those scales, but I figured it out.) Having played the piece, I recognized the "moves."



Once I had that hunch, I verified that the first theme of the sonata would fit over the chords you listed and...QED.



Classical music is not that different from old-time music in this sense: if you've been doing it for a long time, you have a lot of pieces in your head.






Very cool.  Welcome!



I’m curious, what sparked your interest in banjo and what style of play are you looking to get into?






 






Well, you're in luck! wink

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/26/2018:  08:07:10


quote:

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

quote:

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

Originally posted by Rawhide Creek

I’ve always considered that scalar section to be a bridge from C major (with the Alberti bass) to G major.  But that’s based on what I was taught, years ago, in “Larger Forms of Musical Composition”.  It is a strategy that appears in other works, and in works by other composers before and after.  





While that could be one way of looking at it, this is not so much a bridge, in my opinion, but a series of chords which cadence on the G chord, which is just the dominant chord of C major, the key the whole thing starts in. That cadence there leads right back to a repeat of the passage in C, and  after the repeat, the initial change is to C7, which is the true point of modulation. In my opinion the scale passages, as well as the Alberti bass, function as structural elements of the themes of this movement and therefore are more than a bridge.



Music does lead to varied analyses, and yours certainly is as equally valid as mine.






It appears that mine agrees with, among many, many others, that of the late musicologist Stanley Sadie:



[1788] . . . A little later, at the time of the last symphonies, came the popular sonata ‘for beginners’ k545.  Its first movement includes Mozart’s only true example—there is a remote parallel in the finale of the k387 quartet—of a recapitulation beginning in the subdominant; it is not, however, merely a transposed version of the exposition, for in order to fix the home key more firmly the transition moves on to the dominant before settling in the tonic.  Even in conventionally planned sonata movements [underscore added] Mozart was inclined to adjust the recapitulation transition in order to consolidate the tonic.



On the form and components of a sonata (or sonata-allegro) movement, see also The Larger Forms of Musical Composition by Percy Goetschius.  Or any reputable dictionary of music.  Or even (shudder) Wikipedia at en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form.






If you are making claims of support for your thoughts (which are legitimate, I'm not saying otherwise) you should pick a better example than Sadie's paragraph. He is speaking here about Mozart's recapitulation, which occurs toward the end of a movement. The passage you have cited as transitional occurs at the beginning of the movement, which is a rather large difference.



Again, I'm not saying that your analysis is incorrect. I just feel that there is much more structure involved with those scales and Alberti bass than a mere transition passage. In other words, those motifs are both key features of the entire first movement of this sonata. 


Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 02/26/2018 08:12:09

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 02/26/2018:  09:23:14


George, perhaps you overlooked my underscore—that’s an odd phrase, isn’t it?—because I was referring to the form of the movement.  We expect to find different things in a sonata-allegro than we do in, for example, a rondo like the third movement.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/26/2018:  11:31:50


No, I did not miss that. It is irrelevant, in my opinion, anyway, because the recapitulation in any form, be it sonata-allegro, rondo, theme and variations, or what-have-you, does not occur at the beginning of a movement, but at the end. It would be impossible even for a musical genius such as Mozart to restate something that he'd never stated in the first place.

I have said before that many interpretations are valid. I have also stated that I am not bringing up an argument against yours. I am only stating that your quoted paragraph is talking about something else (recapitulation).

I do not wish to discuss this any further, and I really don't see why you are so adamant about it, since I have not, in fact, disagreed with your idea that these scale passages constitute a transition. I just see them as more.

Mooooo - Posted - 02/28/2018:  00:21:21


quote:

Originally posted by rfink1913



Musicologists have named cadences like the one at mm. 11-12 the "bifocal close" - the same cadence can lead to V, as in the exposition, or back to I, as in the recapitulation. (It's like a lens with two "focal lengths," in the metaphorical sense.) The trick is to arrive "on the dominant," without quite being "in the dominant." See this article by Robert Winter, which is, unfortunately, behind a paywall, but you can read just enough of it to get the idea...



 






Maybe you or G Edward Porgie or Rawhide Creek or anyone else would like to take a crack at this piece of unknown (to me) origin. It's a classical piece that I learned it a long time ago on guitar, there was more to it, but I think this is the basic melody. Get out your banjos and pick through it and if anyone has heard it before I am sure they can name it. 



Thanks, Mike


Edited by - Mooooo on 02/28/2018 00:30:47


G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/01/2018:  08:38:28


Well, Mike, I looked this over and it's one I haven't heard (unless, perhaps, you've mis-remembered it slightly).



It's an odd one, as it appears to be a passage that modulates. It starts pretty obviously in the key of C, but ends on the note "D" after a previous measure containing a D key's (could be major or minor, depending on what is happening in the missing harmony) leading tone, C# . I also note a Bb elsewhere in the piece.



If you could remember more, maybe someone could help identify this, but for now, I'm just going to agree with the title you've given it.


Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 03/01/2018 08:39:01

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  09:03:18


I haven't heard the original played by anyone but the small group who I played it with. some would play this melody and others would play a counterpoint to it which I wouldn't presume to guess. It was about 40 years ago and I can't remember any more. The melody is generally accurate up to the point I have written it. If you don't recognize it from that, you haven't heard it. I thank you for your attempt to solve the mystery that has haunted me. I recently spoke to one of the guys I used to perform it with, and he couldn't remember the name either, but remembered the melody as I played it for him.

Anyone else have any Idea what song this is? mmuussiiccaall, Rawhide Creek, rfink1913? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/01/2018:  10:05:14


Mike, to me it sounds like one of the movements (sans bowel) from one of Bach’s Orchestral Suites. I haven’t had time to listen through those, but now that you’ve piqued/peaked my curiosity maybe “I Will” , a la Fab Four.

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  10:33:18


Chuck, Bach has been on my mind, he is who I always think about, but didn't want to lead anyone astray in case it isn't the case. Thanks for the suggestion, I am gonna investigate. This has been eating at me for decades, you wouldn't believe all the blank faces I've played this to.

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  11:42:57


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

Mike, to me it sounds like one of the movements (sans bowel) from one of Bach’s Orchestral Suites. I haven’t had time to listen through those, but now that you’ve piqued/peaked my curiosity maybe “I Will” , a la Fab Four.






Chuck, you are a genius. You have led me straight to the piece I was talking about. I have to pat myself on the back because with the exception of a repeat sign, my sheet music was pretty much exactly like they are playing the melody. Thanks Chuck....



But that's not all!!! Tell him what he's won Johnny!



It's a Brand New CAR!!!!



Thanks again Chuck.



J.S. Bach- Suite No.1 in C major, BWV 1066: Passepied I and II mvt. 7/7



btw "sans bowel" and "I will" were not lost on me...very funny Chuck


Edited by - Mooooo on 03/01/2018 11:48:59

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/01/2018:  11:47:22


Ahh...all in a day’s work, Mike. Actually, I was raised on Bach with two organists in the dam fambly , and other assorted uncles who liked pounding out fugues. And I’d had the Orch. Suites on CD (Neville , “the Ancient, Marriner, Limey Chamber Orch., or was it Academy of Jimmy Martin in the Fields...I forget now)



oh, and thnx for the new car offer, but dees daze I’ve been going “green” ....


Edited by - chuckv97 on 03/01/2018 11:51:54

Mooooo - Posted - 03/01/2018:  11:57:20


That's a great dam family Chuck, and you have a good ear for recognizing good music, I certainly appreciate that.

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