BluegrassWarehouse - Posted - 01/01/2017:  19:22:56

I just noticed on the Stelling website that Remo heads are now standard on Stelling Banjos.  Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and why the change?

Lance

Robby Boone - Posted - 01/01/2017:  19:52:50

Ludwig no longer makes banjo heads.......

Robby

John Stout - Posted - 01/01/2017:  21:15:16

I love Robbie Boone's banjo demos

John Stout - Posted - 01/01/2017:  21:17:00

And Robby Boone's also

GStump - Posted - 01/02/2017:  04:31:23

      Perhaps,  maybe,  just maybe - IF there were enough demand,  and screaming,  begging,  pleading,  whining and b****ing and moaning and such - Ludwig would start making these again?  

TOMCAT - Posted - 01/02/2017:  05:16:46

I got one of the new heads from Geoff for my Sunlflower. They are pressed like the 5stars not glued. Great head I like it.

Edited by - TOMCAT on 01/02/2017 05:22:53

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/02/2017:  06:12:34

Remos made in Taiwan are crimped like Ludwigs. Remos made in USA are epoxied.

Craig_B - Posted - 01/02/2017:  06:13:17

I got one from Geoff as well, about a month or so ago, but haven't installed it yet. Seems I have way too many things on my winter honey-do list.

Edited by - Craig_B on 01/02/2017 06:13:47

Banjophobic - Posted - 01/02/2017:  11:05:12

You can beg all you like but there's isn't enough money in banjo heads to make Ludwig want to make them again, would be my guess. let's hope Reno doesn't decide the same thing one day..yikes.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/02/2017:  13:47:28

Well, as long as manufacturers are making banjos, someone will have to make banjo heads.  I guess Ludwig has ceded the market to Remo.

desert rose - Posted - 01/02/2017:  18:13:35

Gregg

You need a bit of a reality check. ANY big company that makes components for banjo is loosing money. Ludwig is one of the two BIG names in drum heads, having a machine dedicated to banjo heads is loosing them money. They could take the same machines and make more drum heads that sell in much higher volume.

Remo is in the same situation, years ago they began sourcing a large percent of their heads from Taiwan. Freeing up their American manufacturing for making more drum heads.

This is a reality in the banjo world

Scott

banjotom5 - Posted - 01/03/2017:  03:32:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by desert rose

 

Gregg

You need a bit of a reality check. ANY big company that makes components for banjo is loosing money. Ludwig is one of the two BIG names in drum heads, having a machine dedicated to banjo heads is loosing them money. They could take the same machines and make more drum heads that sell in much higher volume.

Remo is in the same situation, years ago they began sourcing a large percent of their heads from Taiwan. Freeing up their American manufacturing for making more drum heads.

 

This is a reality in the banjo world

Scott

---

​On that note***  Sounds as if we should stock up on our favorite head just in case

banjoez - Posted - 01/03/2017:  05:57:43

I wonder if Stelling is contracting with Remo to make something special for them because in my experience there is a lot of difference in tone between a standard Remo and a Ludwig on a Stelling. The Ludwigs seem to give the Stellings more punch and brightness. The Remos tend to mellow them out somewhat. It seems like the Ludwigs are a little thicker and less "stretchy" and more stable once you got them up to tension also. That's been my experience anyway.

Edited by - banjoez on 01/03/2017 06:04:41

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/03/2017:  06:49:03

While banjo heads are not profitable for a large company, it's not just a simple matter of a lack of demand. Anything can be a money maker if its production costs don't exceed the price that can be squeezed out of the consumer.

It's a two-fold situation; if Ludwig prices their head high enough to cover costs, they will lose buyers to any company that can make the same item for less, even if "less" includes questionable quality control. I believe that if Ludwig could have found a subcontractor who could produce banjo heads for them at a low enough price and still up to their high standards, 5-Star heads would still be available. 

Alex Z - Posted - 01/03/2017:  08:08:22

Ludwig and Remo are very different companies. 

Remo's main business is as a manufacturer of drum heads, plus specialized percussion instruments and percussion accessories.

Ludwig, now part of the Conn-Selmer corporation, is a manufacturer of high quality drum kits.  "The most famous name on drums."

So Remo's focus is on heads, Ludwig's focus is on drums. 

It is understandable why Ludwig no longer wants to supply heads for banjos.  It's not always only a P&L decision, as if someone knows (rather than estimates from accounting data) exactly how much it costs to produce a banjo head and if the selling price is more than that then they will make banjo heads.  Rather, other factors can be taken into account -- maintaining customer contacts, delivery of small orders, distribution networks, transaction costs, keeping the brand visible in several markets, and -- importantly -- what the corporation can do with resources that would be freed up by eliminating the banjo head line.  All these factors have pros and cons.

It's a question that well-run businesses should continually ask:  What's our business.  What's our focus.  What fits or doesn't fit with our business vision.

Edited by - Alex Z on 01/03/2017 08:14:47

Alex Z - Posted - 01/03/2017:  09:46:37

As an example, for many years Ludwig made only 1 size and type of banjo head:  11", top frosted, medium crown.  In recent years, I believe they added a couple of additional head types, but I don't think any other sizes.

Remo, at the same time, supplies banjo heads in a couple dozen diameters, 3 crown sizes, 5 materials, plus a dealer can get custom orders.  See Bob Smakula's site for how many sizes and types of Remo banjo heads are available.

Now, every Remo head is not $15, as a commodity generic "banjo head."  Different sizes/types cost more.  But they will make a head for your banjo.  Ain't no different from a custom drum head.

Different businesses, different focuses.

 

Banjophobic - Posted - 01/03/2017:  10:03:57

I think Remo continues to make banjo heads as a nod to its history. Gibson continued to make banjos up till the flood period, but guitars was always where the profit was and is, not banjos. They continued to make them for the historical aspect I believe. 

What do we think either Remo or Ludwig sold more of, banjo heads or drum heads? 

Alex Z - Posted - 01/03/2017:  10:44:26

Obviously, drum heads.

My point is not about volume in isolation, but rather in a larger scope of how business decisions are made by large companies.  Remo is not a cottage industry making a few products by hand.

Remo is in the drum head business as its main business, and a banjo head is nothing more than a drum head with certain specs.  Ludwig is not in the drum head business as its main business, although it makes drum heads as an ancillary service to its main business -- making drums.

Ludwig has ceded its market share of the banjo head business to Remo.

Also, it is quite possible for a business to decide to have a "loss leader" on a low volume product in order to keep its market image as a full service supplier.  For example, suppose it costs Remo $8 to make and deliver a banjo head, and they sell them to retailers at $7.  They "lose" $1 per head.  Times how many heads per year? 10,000?  100,000?  Heck, suppose they lose $5 per head?  It's still peanuts, especially if there is value in addition to money from being known to make banjo heads.

I'd bet Remo gives away as promotions more drum heads per year than they make banjo heads, but they wouldn't consider the promotions as a "loss."  Rather, simply a cost of being in the business they have defined.

Banjophobic - Posted - 01/03/2017:  14:38:10

I hear you Alex and I agree On those points. I doubt a banjo head costs more than a couple bucks to make, so Remo is not loosing much if any money on them. Again, think they keep making them because they are already set up tooling wise for it and it's part of their longstanding company history to make them. If the USA division stops making Remo heads, they can always switch to all Asian made, which would be even cheaper to make and would yield a substantial profile at current costs. 

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/04/2017:  07:40:26

I would hope that now that there's no real competition, Remo won't jack up their prices.

steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2017:  07:49:55

Does Ludwig make an 11" drum?

mikehalloran - Posted - 01/04/2017:  08:15:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

 

As an example, for many years Ludwig made only 1 size and type of banjo head:  11", top frosted, medium crown.  In recent years, I believe they added a couple of additional head types, but I don't think any other sizes.

Remo, at the same time, supplies banjo heads in a couple dozen diameters, 3 crown sizes, 5 materials, plus a dealer can get custom orders.  See Bob Smakula's site for how many sizes and types of Remo banjo heads are available.

Now, every Remo head is not $15, as a commodity generic "banjo head."  Different sizes/types cost more.  But they will make a head for your banjo.  Ain't no different from a custom drum head.

Different businesses, different focuses.

 

---

Actually, if you go back far enough, you could buy 5 Star heads in top, bottom frosted and clear in both 11" Gibson and 10 15/16" Vega sizes. The Vega sizes were gone years ago.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2017:  09:46:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

... other factors can be taken into account... keeping the brand visible in several markets . . .

---

Except that Ludwig banjo heads did not contribute to brand visibility.  I'm pretty sure there were no banjo heads with the Ludwig brand on them. They were sold either as unbranded (no logo) or were branded as 5 Star, First Quality, Showcase, Stelling, possibly Deering and other names.  Stew-Mac -- seller of 5-Star branded products -- never identified their heads as Ludwig in origin, as far as I recall.  Neither did FQ in the days when they sold them.  I think Janet Davis, Jack Hatfield and maybe Stelling were the only retailers who identified Ludwig as the source.

It was easy for the average banjo owner shopping for a replacement head to be unaware that Ludwig made banjo heads.

I don't know if there's any financial incentive for Remo in Taiwan to add slightly thicker Mylar to its offerings, but seeing as the Taiwan plant is where they produce crimped-hoop heads like the Ludwig, a line with thicker Mylar (and the thicker coating that I believe already comes from Taiwan) could offer Ludwig fans something close to what they liked.

-  -  -  -  -

In the meantime, I've been happy with an AMB medium crown head on one banjo on which I used to use 5-Stars. It's a USA Remo with extra frosting.  According to some satisfied users of Huber heads here on the Hangout, the Huber head has an even slightly thicker frosting than the AMB.  It's also a USA Remo, which means the Mylar is held to the flesh hoop with the expoxy pour channel technique.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 01/04/2017:  09:51:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

 

Ludwig and Remo are very different companies. 

Remo's main business is as a manufacturer of drum heads, plus specialized percussion instruments and percussion accessories.

     "Remo Inc., is the world's largest drumhead company.   For 50 years we have led the way in synthetic drumhead and shell development to enhance and expand the possibilities of percussion."

 

Ludwig, now part of the Conn-Selmer corporation, is a manufacturer of high quality drum kits.  "The most famous name on drums."

So Remo's focus is on heads, Ludwig's focus is on drums. 

It is understandable why Ludwig no longer wants to supply heads for banjos.  It's not always only a P&L decision, as if someone knows (rather than estimates from accounting data) exactly how much it costs to produce a banjo head and if the selling price is more than that then they will make banjo heads.  Rather, other factors can be taken into account -- maintaining customer contacts, delivery of small orders, distribution networks, transaction costs, keeping the brand visible in several markets, and -- importantly -- what the corporation can do with resources that would be freed up by eliminating the banjo head line.  All these factors have pros and cons.

It's a question that well-run businesses should continually ask:  What's our business.  What's our focus.  What fits or doesn't fit with our business vision.

 

---

Or, as the late Robert Townsend (Up the Organization​) said: 

"Find out what business you're in.  Then stay in it."

OldPappy - Posted - 01/04/2017:  13:14:52

If Remo were to quit making them, someone else would probably pick it up, else the tomcat population would dwindle.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2017:  14:00:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikehalloran

Actually, if you go back far enough, you could buy 5 Star heads in top, bottom frosted and clear in both 11" Gibson and 10 15/16" Vega sizes. The Vega sizes were gone years ago.

---

In the late 70s or early 80s there was also a 5-Star smooth white head that was neither top nor bottom frosted. I think the mylar itself was white. I tried one briefly. It was not at all what I was looking for.

J.Albert - Posted - 01/04/2017:  15:17:17

banjotom5 wrote:

"Sounds as if we should stock up on our favorite head just in case"

Hmmmm....

If Remo ever decides to get out of the banjo-head market, does that mean the only source left will become... skin heads...?   :)

Edited by - J.Albert on 01/04/2017 15:17:41

Alex Z - Posted - 01/04/2017:  16:50:45

"Except that Ludwig banjo heads did not contribute to brand visibility. "

That's my point.  Banjo heads were not managed as part of Ludwig's core business.  So Ludwig is now out of the banjo head business.  It's a good decision from Ludgwig's perspective, it does not necessarily mean that Ludwig has failed at anything -- they are not obligated to keep a non-core part of their business going indefinitely.  They still make drum heads.

Remo, to the contrary, is very visible in the banjo head market as well as in the drum head market.  They are in the head business.  Heck, there are thousands of banjo geeks like us that pay attention to things like whether Weatherking" is one word or two on the head, or the placement of the crown, or whether it says "Made in USA", or the trademark sign, or the old thicker finish or new thicker finish, etc.   

So market recognition is huge.   And everyone knows it's Remo.  (Although few know the name Remo Belli.)

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2017:  19:45:43

Great post.  I feel stupid for misunderstanding your point.

Alex Z - Posted - 01/04/2017:  19:56:39

Might call it "understanding in a different way."  Ken, I appreciated your comment, that I quoted.  Meant that something may have been missing from my prior posts.

Prompts the speaker to think again, refine.  In good communication, it's also the speaker's responsibility to be clear and complete.

Bob Smakula - Posted - 01/05/2017:  05:40:46

To help clarify the 5-Star head issue, I asked the president of Stewart Macdonald just what the heck was going on and he replied with this;

 Five Star heads we’re the first product for Stewmac. C. E. Stewart and Bill MacDonald went to Chicago in 1968 and met with Bill Ludwig who agreed to make the heads that we all know. 45 years later they forgot how to make them correctly and had absolutely no interest in working with us…so, we went to other head makers thinking it would be easy to get another made, not true. Remo America isn’t interested, Remo in Taiwan is (apparently those two don’t talk to each other very often), however they couldn’t make what we wanted so we’re still hunting. I do have samples from our new source, they are close, need a thinner mylar, better frosting and to dial in the diameter however it’s really close.

He offered me a sample and I accepted it. It does look real close to the original Ludwig made 5-Star heads. I passed it on to a professional musician that has used 5-Star heads exclusively for the last 10 or so years so he could install it on one of his banjos and offer constructive criticism.  

There is light at the end of the tunnel for the 5-star banjo head fans. I'm sure you all appreciate the straight scoop.

Bob Smakula

smakula.comsmakula.com

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/05/2017:  08:12:19

Thank you so much, Bob!

I appreciate Stew Mac's comment that "45 years they (Ludwig) forgot how to make them correctly."  That confirms the experience of several Hangout members (myself included) who have commented on the inconsistent quality of Ludwig heads in the 21st century.  People have obtained heads larger than 11 inches, with crown heights seeming lower than actual medium, with flesh hoops so large they interfere with the hooks and with coating irregularities.

I've experienced several of those. The last Five-Star I bought not quite 2 years ago seems to be less than medium crown, so even when tightened to 91-92 on the drum dial, the tension hoop sits really high.  A First Quality branded Ludwig I bought in 2001 had the larger diameter flesh hoop I mentioned above.  It took a lot of fighting to get all the hooks installed.  It also had some coating over-spray on the under-side of the head.  What's with that?

Anyway, it's great news that a replacement comparable to the original might be on the way.

Hoop above 5 Star head - 2

 

 

 

banjoez - Posted - 01/05/2017:  09:41:41

Well that explains why some of the more recent Ludwig/5 Star heads I have owned were just not right. One actually had a wrinkle in it and another had a warped bead that would not install evenly. I guess they didn't care anymore. They still took the money though.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 01/05/2017:  13:52:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Smakula

 

To help clarify the 5-Star head issue, I asked the president of Stewart Macdonald just what the heck was going on and he replied with this;

 Five Star heads we’re the first product for Stewmac. C. E. Stewart and Bill MacDonald went to Chicago in 1968 and met with Bill Ludwig who agreed to make the heads that we all know. 45 years later they forgot how to make them correctly and had absolutely no interest in working with us…so, we went to other head makers thinking it would be easy to get another made, not true. Remo America isn’t interested, Remo in Taiwan is (apparently those two don’t talk to each other very often), however they couldn’t make what we wanted so we’re still hunting. I do have samples from our new source, they are close, need a thinner mylar, better frosting and to dial in the diameter however it’s really close.

He offered me a sample and I accepted it. It does look real close to the original Ludwig made 5-Star heads. I passed it on to a professional musician that has used 5-Star heads exclusively for the last 10 or so years so he could install it on one of his banjos and offer constructive criticism.  

There is light at the end of the tunnel for the 5-star banjo head fans. I'm sure you all appreciate the straight scoop.

 

Bob Smakula

smakula.comsmakula.com

---

That's the most informative comment on this thread. 

One can only hope that Stew-Mac can find a new maker, due to the popularity of those heads.

To those who've had quality issues with some of the recent 5-Stars far, I have noted that the latest Remos are pretty inconsistent, too. I hope I don't have to replace a head in the near future, and can wait for BOTH companies to get their acts together.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 01/05/2017 13:53:00