HPNomad - Posted - 03/25/2016:  23:44:21

So today, in my boredom that accompanies me and my job. I decided to see what was going on at Gibson.com and have a look at some of their banjos they had in stock. I was met by a message saying "We do not currently have any Gibson model banjos in stock at this time." Curious, I took to google to see if any dealers were selling modern reproductions. I found an article on Bluegrass Today (bluegrasstoday.com/what-is-goi...n-banjos/) and what I read really shocked me.

"Long before Les Paul started thinking about solid body electric guitars, the Gibson company – then located in Kalamazoo, MI – was known as one of the premier makers of banjos in the US. They provided tenors for the explosion of popularity in that style of banjo in the early 1900s, and their Mastertone models from the 1930s through the early ’40s serve as the standard of excellence by which all modern banjos are measured.

But since the flooding of the Cumberland River in Nashville ravaged their production facilities in May of 2010, Gibson has not assembled or shipped a single banjo. Nor have they been willing to discuss the status of banjo building in their future plans.

Halting production in the wake of the flooding is easily understood. The Nashville shop, located just by the banks of the Cumberland near the Grand Ole Opry House, was completely destroyed by the flood. Both the showroom and the assembly areas had several feet of water sloshing around. Parts and tools were floating on the surface, with ruined machinery below. It was deemed irrecoverable, and the site was abandoned with banjo and mandolin luthiers sent to work in other Nashville production facilities.

Numerous calls and emails to Gibson for comment since have been met with stony silence. Existing dealers have only been told (for the past 3 years) that no banjo production is expected each year. One call to the main Gibson customer service line verified this fact, and that no banjos have been shipped since the flood.

It seems a fair question to ask: what is going on with Gibson Banjos?

The demise of their 5 strings was not only a shock to the dealers who represented them, but very nearly caused the collapse of First Quality Music in Louisville, who had been manufacturing the Gibson banjo components for some time. The Sullivan family had tooled up substantially to support this production, and it accounted for nearly half their annual revenue when it disappeared in a flash after the flood. First Quality has since restructured, and have survived the financial jolt by refocusing their efforts on their own Sullivan Banjo line, and the Derby City turkey calls they make from scrap neck wood.

Gibson mandolins, which had been made in the same shop at Opry Mills destroyed by flood waters, have recently resumed production, but no word whatsoever has been offered where banjos are concerned. The Gibson web site still shows several banjo models listed, but only their Asian import series by Epiphone is available for sale.

Is it possible that the company whose banjos are so intimately enmeshed with bluegrass music is abandoning their production forever? It seems that the banjo lovers, dealers and collectors who have supported Gibson these many years deserve an answer to that question at the very least."

Has there been any updates on whether or not Gibson has started manufacturing banjos again? It's been almost six years.

ceemonster - Posted - 03/26/2016:  02:06:54

The article you have excerpted is well-known to Gibson-watchers here at BHangout. Every month or two, "Whence Gibson???" seems to be the theme of a fresh discussion thread topic here at this site, so you are in good company with your question.



The answer is, "NO," Gibson has not started manufacturing banjos again. Officially, a high officer at Gibson, has stated the company has not closed the door on banjo making and will do so again. But the word from people in a position to be able to make an informed guess, is that Gibson is not going to start manufacturing banjos again any time soon. If you do some keyword searches here, you can find numerous threads where everybody is chewing over the reasons for this. They're depressing reasons. But the bright side is, nobody is in any danger of going without fabulous newly-produced "Masterclone" or "Prewar-style" banjos any time soon, thanks to the fact that a host of small makers are giving the world an incredible array of offerings that equal and in a number of instance surpass what Gibson was doing. And some of these fabulous banjos are being produced by people who had a hand in producing Gibson banjos.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that Gibson could start production on banjos again.  But I don't think you or I want to see them produce horrid, cheesy, low-end banjos, or put out Asian contracts for "Gibson" banjos.  And if you locate those discussion threads I mentioned, there are lots of reasons why at this juncture, they are not likely inclined to produce quality banjos in Nashville or Memphis again, and are not going to be so inclined in the near future.  On the other hand, I just came out of a large book/CD/DVD store where the whole front displays of the music section were filled with big, colorful rows of glorious, brand-new, vinyl LPs. Many of them.  Wonderful stuff doesn't go away forever.  Gibson banjos aren't really gone. They live on in the stuff being made now by the indies.  And they could live on again under their own aegis, just like supposedly dead vinyl LPs.  One day.  Just not today, or tomorrow.

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/26/2016 02:20:47

warpdrive - Posted - 03/26/2016:  03:06:06

Ok! I gots to ask! "Why would anybody want Gibson to start making Banjo's again? Especially among you hard core "collector/traders" if Gibson never makes another banjo, that just makes it more possible for some of the crap to become collectable! I can see it now in classified's sometime in the near future: FS/OT 1971 Gibson rb-250 Bastardtone! this banjo was bought at a garage sale, in three pieces! I took some elmers glue and put the neck back on, resonator screws were missing, so i drilled holes in the sides of the resonator, and looped some twisty ties from old bread wrappers i had up through the flange, if your sitting, it holds in place pretty good! This model was made during the Joe Numbskull era, and has the famous Gibson banged out of a metal trash can lid tone ring! Don't miss this chance to own this piece of Gibson Historical crap, this is absolutely the "worst" sounding banjo i've ever heard, action so high you can shoot arrows with it, but that shouldn't matter to you, its a Gibson! They only made 12,672 of these, asking price is 25k sorry no low ball offers!

Edited by - warpdrive on 03/26/2016 03:12:54

RioStat - Posted - 03/26/2016:  05:29:08

Now don't hold back, Kevin....tell us how you really feel !!     

dizzo - Posted - 03/26/2016:  06:10:10

I think most of us here, even the hard core collectors, put the love of banjo before their pocketbook. I'd love to see Gibson make banjos again. If they did, there's a good likelihood that they would be made of parts substandard to their old mastertones anyway.

LisaSimpson - Posted - 03/26/2016:  06:58:19

I'd hate to say this but even Gibson was trying to replicate it's own banjo by re-issuing a lot of their older styles, therefore almost competing with it's own brand. I think maybe because the new stuff couldn't measure up to the instruments made in the 30's and 40's (for whatever reason), along with competing against some very good builders today, they threw in the towel. Also, just seeing what SXSW had to offer this year, it's clear what direction Gibson wants to go.

Edited by - LisaSimpson on 03/26/2016 07:00:02

southerndrifter - Posted - 03/26/2016:  07:18:19

What I would like to see happen is for some really good banjo manufacturer to buy the rights to the "Gibson" and "Mastertone" names and begin producing good banjos again. Of course, realistically, that would probably be impossible. The ownership of Gibson would be too stubborn to turn loose of the rights, not to mention the millions of dollars that it would probably take to buy those rights.

But here is a thought; Gibson would probably crank up banjo production again, if they could move it to China. The question is, would "we" be willing to buy Chinese-made "Mastertones"?

eagleisland - Posted - 03/26/2016:  08:02:49

Well, here we go again.

dhergert - Posted - 03/26/2016:  08:22:07

Since none of us can tell the future anyway, it's fun to speculate.  But it is just speculation, including what I'm going to opine next:

From everything I've read and heard about the top management of Gibson, banjo production, and for that matter any bluegrass instrument production, isn't and has never been their top priority or their top interest.  Their big income is from electric guitars and electric basses, pretty much following where the big income in the music industry lies.  So that's the reason those instruments were the first to resume production after the flood, and it continues to be so.

Gibson has some commitment to producing USA-made instruments under the Gibson name.  That could change, but it would be at a cost of public support, especially in the USA.  So I really don't expect to see Gibson moving their name-brand banjo production offshore.  And I don't expect to see them releasing their patent properties and trademarks to competing companies.  They do continue to produce the Epiphone line offshore, which probably more accurately is a measure of Gibson's interest in staying in banjo production.  These Epiphone banjos are sufficient to hold Gibson's patent properties, while the trademarks are protected by USA law for a long period of time.

This also gets into music marketability... Bluegrass is a niche product in the music marketplace at this time, which means the instruments that support it are also niche products.  So bluegrass instruments are always made in smaller production batches, with much more hand-work than the other instruments.  As such, bluegrass instruments are more expensive to make, with less profit margin for Gibson.  How bluegrass does in the music marketplace in the future is going to have a large effect on Gibson's interest in making banjos again.

As such, Gibson really doesn't have any strong interest or reason to invest in making banjos right now.

The big surprise to me is that Gibson decided to produce mandolins again.  I suspect part of that decision is that mandolins can be made with much less investment in heavy hardware than banjos require.  Since all the heavy hardware that Gibson was using for banjos was destroyed in the flood, the investment to replace that hardware would be huge.

Regarding collectiblity, I think in another 10 or 20 years we're going to start seeing the term "pre-flood" used more and more related to collectable Gibson banjos.  In 40 years "pre-flood" will probably have more meaning to collectors than pre-war does to collectors today. 

But, as collectors we have to remember, the rare banjos for what we now consider the post-WW2 period are the non-5-string banjos and the more high-end banjos.  The standard 5-string banjos are not rare, they were really the normal banjos that were being produced in great numbers.  The rare banjos made after WW2 are the tenors, the plectrums and long-necks and the high-end banjos.  So they are going to be the more valuable collectable banjos in 20 to 40 years.

Again, speaking as a collector, regarding the small-manufacturer non-Gibson Mastertone-style 5-string banjos, and also what we today consider the "parts banjos", there are also a lot of them, plus they don't have the collectable name.  Players may love them and seek them, but collectors won't.

None of this means the less collectable banjos aren't great banjos for players.  But in 20 to 40 years, the music market will have decided what is really valuable for collectors.

-- Don

Edited by - dhergert on 03/26/2016 08:23:44

banjoman56 - Posted - 03/26/2016:  08:22:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by southerndrifter

 

What I would like to see happen is for some really good banjo manufacturer to buy the rights to the "Gibson" and "Mastertone" names and begin producing good banjos again. Of course, realistically, that would probably be impossible. The ownership of Gibson would be too stubborn to turn loose of the rights, not to mention the millions of dollars that it would probably take to buy those rights.



But here is a thought; Gibson would probably crank up banjo production again, if they could move it to China. The question is, would "we" be willing to buy Chinese-made "Mastertones"?

---

It really comes down to this.........How much are people willing to pay for the Gibson name. There's companies producing better banjos now than Gibson did when they closed down and I don't see any of them paying out millions of dollars, just to be able to put the Gibson name on their instruments. I doubt that Gibson ever starts up banjo production again and don't really care if they don't. We have plenty of capable builders supplying the market with great banjos and actually, I don't think there's been a time since the 30's, that you can buy the high quality banjos that todays market offers.

Alex Z - Posted - 03/26/2016:  08:43:21

"Has there been any updates on whether or not Gibson has started manufacturing banjos again? It's been almost six years."

No.

Not one bit.  And I don't really care.  Doesn't matter to me.  No sir, makes no difference.  Absolutely no difference.  I don't even think about it.  Not one little bit.  Never crosses my mind.  What Gibson does, doesn't matter one way or another.  Not at all.  I don't care.   The fact that they are throwing away a classic name and fine product for no real reason other than money -- not my concern at all.  So what if others are copying the Gibson design and won't be worth anything to collectors -- I don't even waste my time thinking about it.  Completely irrelevant to me.  Useless to even consider.  Makes no difference to me.  I never think  . . . .

Edited by - Alex Z on 03/26/2016 08:44:43

Bert Huckelberry - Posted - 03/26/2016:  12:49:29

Gibson has been quietly making banjos since the flood. They are using a facility carved out of the stone under Lookout Mountain. when Trump places that tariff on the imports, you'll see them in every Guitar center in America.

northwoodspicker - Posted - 03/26/2016:  18:28:46

Recording King is the new Gibson, designer and all.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 03/26/2016:  20:04:30

kevin ,,, you missed the point,,, some folks just want a gibson banjo,,, i don't have a problem with that,, and some folks want a brand new gibson banjo,,,  and yes they can be made over here and sound good at the same time,,,, price point will determine product popularity just as much as quality,,,  a little common sense in the PR dept. will go a long way this time ,,if they ever do decide to make them again.   doesn't matter whose name is at the top of it or how good it sounds ,,, none will ever have the prestige of the gibson.   too much history.

terry m

desert rose - Posted - 03/26/2016:  23:20:37

Most here know these facts but new people join all the time

Gibson essentially SHUT DOWN Opry Mills, the mandolin Dobro and banjo shop in OCTOBER of 2009. When we went there during IBMA  Gibson had laid off all but 3 of the aproximately 22 +- craftsman. The three remaining were essentially making floor sweep instruments. This is very well documented and the reason why 20 year veteran banjo master Ed Weber now makes Recording King banjos. then fast foreward to spring of 2010 god sent Gibson a gift, the flood. They quickly filed a claim, gave up ALL tooling damaged or not and laughed on the way to the bank.

I know of three WELL KNOWN names in banjo making that have made formal proposals to Gibson to make their banjos, ALL have failed, all for the same reason, which I wont post here

Scott

dhergert - Posted - 03/27/2016:  14:24:26

Scott << ...gave up ALL tooling damaged or not... >>

Thanks for mentioning that Scott.  I was actually having trouble believing that ALL of Gibson's heavy machinery for making banjos was lost.  Your information makes good sense given the top-level attitudes that we've read and heard about.

-- Don

J.Albert - Posted - 03/27/2016:  15:43:35

Short of a resurgence of bluegrass or some other miracle, I don't expect to see any new Nashville-produced Gibson banjos in my lifetime.

There are enough used ones for sale to support the market for something "Gibson-made", in any case.

If you want something that "looks like" a Gibson, short of the name on the peghead, get a Huber or one of Tom Mirasola's "affordable" banjos. If I'm not mistaken, Tom's even come with a Gibson-formula Kulesh ring in them.

But another shiny new "Nashville-Gibson" ??

Furgeddaboutit!

OldPappy - Posted - 03/28/2016:  05:22:06

Gibson banjos certainly had their day, but I think that really ended long before they finally shut down banjo production.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/28/2016:  06:50:59

Several times over the years I have shared the following comments about the (then) future of Gibson banjos originally posted online in 2010 by Henry Juszkiewicz (Gibson CEO) on the "Talk to Henry J" forum at Gibson.com (no longer accessible).  Mr. J was answering a question about rumors (mostly here on the Hangout) about the possibility of Gibson selling off the banjo business or farming out production as a way to get back into it.  (You can see that rumores and speculation about Gibson banjos have been going on for at least six years)  Here's what Henry J  wrote:

There is no truth to rumors we are selling off this part of Gibson history. Earl Scruggs, who lives close to my house and is a great friend would kill me.

Lot's of people have made offers, but we get offers on everything all the time. There is no interest.

It is a very difficult business problem for me. It is a tiny division in a company that has grown quite large. Getting management for a small company is really hard. Good managers quickly advance to much larger businesses with higher pay scales and more prestige. On the other hand, some entrepreneurs in small sized businesses either hate a corporate gig, or do not have great business skills. We have tried introducing new management several times with really poor results.

It is a great business and there is no doubt it could contribute to Gibson financially and to the banjo community in the way of product but I have not found the right leadership yet. I hope to get there sooner rather than later.

Make of his comments what you will.  I will repeat a follow-up comment I posted about this a few years ago:   By the time Henry wrote that (post-flood, 2010), Gibson had in fact (as reported on the Hangout by industry people in the know) already sold off its remaining banjo tooling and let go the banjo staff. So there's really a fine line as to what Henry J meant when he said the company was not selling off that part of Gibson history.

ceemonster - Posted - 03/28/2016:  20:24:52

The excerpt posted by Old Hickory is what I was referencing above in noting that "officially" Gibson says the door is by no means closed to resuming banjo production. I personally think it would be awful if they did sell off the Gibson name as to banjos. Really prefer not having Gibson banjos made at all than seeing that. But I'm one of the people who had that feeling of romance and sentiment about "Gibson" banjos, yet the better part of a decade post-flood, is not finding the banjo world lacking without them.  Even narrowing the category down to Masterclones, there's just SO MUCH great, incredible, glorious stuff being made today.  Between Hatfield, Prucha, Yates, Huber, the Deering "Golden" series, Sullivan, Robin Smith, Tim Davis, Frank Neat, and, yes, RK, Goldstar, and on and on and on . . . If it's the "Prewar Mastertone" sound you are after . . . This really IS a Banjo Golden Age--What does "Gibson" on the headstock count for,  in the face of that?

The funny thing about all this, my recollection of Gibson-themed discussion on this site in the ten or so years preceding the flood, was predominantly Gibson-bashing.  OK, for now we are in a Gibson-free world of banjo production with a host of makers whose QC standards alone, and not infrequently the tone of what they're putting out,  leaves Gibson in the dust.   So . . .. What's the prob?  It's almost like folks miss having Gibson as a pinata.

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/28/2016 20:37:11

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 03/28/2016:  21:04:18

Long before shutting down production, Gibson unceremoniously dropped almost all of its long term dedicated but small dealers, selected a small handful of dealers permitted to stay as dealers, and imposed outrageous requirements on those dealers allowed to remain. For example, an entire floor space dedicated only to Gibson. They imposed on-hand inventory requirements that would have put small dealers out of business and were just insane for most music stores, except the largest with lots of capitol to tie up in the form of expensive banjos on display in their own Gibson Showroom.

At the same time, they raised the prices across the board on all models to the point of being the most expensive banjo on the market, or very close to it. They really priced themselves out of the market at that point, I believe.

Then, they placed full page high gloss color ads in all the industry magazines declaring themselves king of bluegrass, essentially stating that had they not been on the scene, bluegrass would never have happened. I remember those ads, and the hubris they projected, very well. Indeed.Tha hubris is reflected in the Gibson CEO's statement quoted above.

Never mind that the quality of the brand had fluctuated wildly over the years. Screw quality and consistency. That's secondary to the brand itself apparently.

Gibson made itself into a piñata, through a series of boneheaded decisions that still leave a lot of folks scratching their heads in wonder.

Edited by - F Elisha Eastes Jr on 03/28/2016 21:11:05

ceemonster - Posted - 03/28/2016:  21:47:59

[[[Gibson made itself into a piñata, through a series of boneheaded decisions that still leave a lot of folks scratching their heads in wonder.]]] Sure, and fair enough---but then why the persistent angst over the production halt, when after years of whacking the piñata, anybody who wants an incredible "prewar Mastertone style" banjo today has an embarrassment of choices between fantastic bg banjos, most of which one way or another have Gibson DNA in them?

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/28/2016 21:48:40

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 03/29/2016:  02:25:11

I would suggest the angst is a result of Gibson's attitude towards its customers and dealers. It reflects back what Gibson puts out there, which is a modest level of contempt.

The roll grabbing I described in my post above affected lots of dealers and users worldwide. Gibson rolled out that new strategy in the mid-to-late 1990s. I recall very clearly one dealer, Ciderville Music just above Knoxville, had been a very successful Gibson dealer, and at that time (and may still) stood as the world's largest volume dealer of Martin guitars, right out of that little hole in the wall music store. (Folks who live in that area are very familiar with Ciderville Music.) Anyway, I recall when Gibson imposed those new requirements, and I knew David West, the owner. He told me Gibson was requiring him to put up $25,000 in capital and he would have to remodel his store to remain a Gibson dealer. So, he just dropped all new Gibsons and continued dealing used Gibsons only. As far as I know, David West will still not sell new Gibsons because of how they screwed him.

In taking the holier-than-thou approach to marketing, Gibson totally forgot its own roots in growing its brand. Gibson grew because their instruments were available at the grass roots level, in furniture stores and hardware stores all over the country, within the reach of most common folks. That's as grass roots as it gets. Had they grown their brand in upscale urban centers only, it would have never been a blip on anyone's radar screen. So Gibson turned its back on its dealers and customers and demanded the respect it already had but squandered away.

It's not like Gibson was complacent in its own demise (regarding banjos). It engineered it. And that, I believe, earned the contempt and angst of lots of folks, even folks who love their instruments. Even folks who used to work for Gibson.

Edited by - F Elisha Eastes Jr on 03/29/2016 02:26:31

Old Man - Posted - 03/29/2016:  03:10:25

Henry isn't going to live forever.

banjoman56 - Posted - 03/29/2016:  06:37:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

 

I would suggest the angst is a result of Gibson's attitude towards its customers and dealers. It reflects back what Gibson puts out there, which is a modest level of contempt.

The roll grabbing I described in my post above affected lots of dealers and users worldwide. Gibson rolled out that new strategy in the mid-to-late 1990s. I recall very clearly one dealer, Ciderville Music just above Knoxville, had been a very successful Gibson dealer, and at that time (and may still) stood as the world's largest volume dealer of Martin guitars, right out of that little hole in the wall music store. (Folks who live in that area are very familiar with Ciderville Music.) Anyway, I recall when Gibson imposed those new requirements, and I knew David West, the owner. He told me Gibson was requiring him to put up $25,000 in capital and he would have to remodel his store to remain a Gibson dealer. So, he just dropped all new Gibsons and continued dealing used Gibsons only. As far as I know, David West will still not sell new Gibsons because of how they screwed him.

In taking the holier-than-thou approach to marketing, Gibson totally forgot its own roots in growing its brand. Gibson grew because their instruments were available at the grass roots level, in furniture stores and hardware stores all over the country, within the reach of most common folks. That's as grass roots as it gets. Had they grown their brand in upscale urban centers only, it would have never been a blip on anyone's radar screen. So Gibson turned its back on its dealers and customers and demanded the respect it already had but squandered away.

It's not like Gibson was complacent in its own demise (regarding banjos). It engineered it. And that, I believe, earned the contempt and angst of lots of folks, even folks who love their instruments. Even folks who used to work for Gibson.

---

This is the absolute truth! I know David West too and though I hadn't heard about the 25,000 dollars, I did hear the rest. I've been to Ciderville music several times and there's not a better place to buy an instrument IMO. I also know other dealers that stopped selling Gibson's because of their policies.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/29/2016:  09:02:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceemonster

The excerpt posted by Old Hickory is what I was referencing above in noting that "officially" Gibson says the door is by no means closed to resuming banjo production.

---

That comment from Henry J. was posted nearly 6 years ago and is no longer active on the Gibson website.  So while Gibson's CEO said six years ago that he hoped to find his idea of the right leadership to make banjos once again a part of Gibson, there is no current official public position I'm aware of in which Gibson still says it hopes to resume banjo production one day.

I'm not very good at predictions, but I'm pretty sure the world has seen the last new banjo from Gibson.

dhergert - Posted - 03/29/2016:  14:01:32

Ken << I'm not very good at predictions, but I'm pretty sure the world has seen the last new banjo from Gibson. >>

Ken, I agree with that...

As I mentioned earlier though, I was quite surprised when Gibson began making mandos again, and my friends on Mando Hangout report that the new ones are really quite good, possibly better than the pre-flood Charlie years (which is hard to believe).

Do you have any info on why Gibson (really HJ) decided to go with mandos but not with banjos?

-- Don

Edited by - dhergert on 03/29/2016 14:02:32

ceemonster - Posted - 03/29/2016:  15:09:18

[[[I'm not very good at predictions, but I'm pretty sure the world has seen the last new banjo from Gibson.]]]



That may be. I'm differentiating between what "officially" Gibson has said--and if there's been nothing for six years, does remain their "official" position until further notice--versus the take of the armchair prognosticators such as all of us on this thread, particularly those who are in a position to make an informed guess. So while "officially" Gibson's last pronouncement is that the door is not closed, the informed guess is it's not gonna happen.



Why mandos and not banjos?  More people want mandos, regrettably.   

Additionally, to Gibson---they are largely a wood product with a long pedigree of Gibson artistry that cross-references Gibson guitar artistry. And make no mistake, despite all the horrid PR about boneheaded decisions and idiotic products unleashed on the world lately by the Gibson guitar people, there is still superb acoustic luthiery coming out of Gibson.

And you don't have to farm out all those metal parts or get into the hassle of making them yourself.  And they are less cumbersome and easier to ship and transport.



I suspect that few people at Gibson see banjo-making as artisan work. They see it as an assembly-line thing, putting machine parts together, a la Detroit, rather than luthiery a la Lloyd Loar.



Probly the best hope to get bg banjo demand way up there again, is for the Mexican immigrants to get into it. They'd be great at it given its affinities with ranchera, conjunto, and mariachi music. Recording King and Deering are in a great position to take that on, down there in SoCal.  I did a bit of ESL teachng a few years ago, and I noticed everybody loved the bg music and songs. 



 

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/29/2016 15:16:53

J.Albert - Posted - 03/29/2016:  15:50:34

Don asked above:

"Do you have any info on why Gibson (really HJ) decided to go with mandos but not with banjos?"

I'll take a shot at it.

Current Gibson mandolin production (which I believe is quite small) is done in their Custom Shop with a small team headed by Dave Harvey.

I'm going to -guess- that from Gibson's viewpoint, mandolin production has quite a bit in common with archtop guitar construction. That the two instruments are "closely related" in that category makes it easier to keep the mandolin line going (whereas banjo-making probably required a somewhat different tooling line).

I'm wondering if the higher-end carved top instruments are also made in the Custom Shop area?

Or are they assembled elsewhere?

dhergert - Posted - 03/29/2016:  17:44:35

CEMonster << Why mandos and not banjos?  More people want mandos, regrettably >>

Interesting...

At first glance I would have opined that in the circles where I play music, there are 5 banjoists for every mandolinist...  But you may have hit on something more subtle there...

Maybe the banjo market is mostly saturated, while the mandolin market is not, so quite literally, "more people want mandos".  Whereas since there are so many banjos and banjoists, in comparison not so many people want banjos. 

Good point there, thanks...

I do also agree on many of the other points made, in particular regarding shared resources between hollow-body and acoustic guitar tooling and talent with the mando shop, and also related to jobbing out banjo parts fabrication.

This all implies though that someone at Gibson may be doing serious analysis of production processes and expenses, and of the market trends.  I have to seriously wonder how likely is that, versus a more simple decision being made at the CEO level?  It is a privately owned company. 

Gibson is mysterious though...  It would be nice to hear from some of our former and/or present insiders on that.

-- Don

Edited by - dhergert on 03/29/2016 18:02:35

ceemonster - Posted - 03/29/2016:  19:51:34

OK, since Desert Rose must remain mum about why Gibson declined to consign banjo production to any of those who have proposed a deal to take it on---let's have some fun and indulge in a game of rank speculation about why that would be.



Is money the leading reason? Or could other factors compete? There's always pride, and dog-in-the-manger spite. Or, sentimentality of which we didn't think Gibson was capable???  What would folks guess on this one????

 

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/29/2016 19:52:48

ceemonster - Posted - 03/29/2016:  20:04:49

On the "mandos v. banjos" question, "More people want banjos" was my secondary guess. The luthery/production angle would be first off the block.





There's already enough el-cheapo starter banjos out there, some of them quite playable. I saw some in the Sam Ash in my megalopolis the last time I was there. They're not flying off the shelves. There's no reason for Gibson to get in at that level when they already have Epiphone. And there's little reason for them to go in at the RK level, because RK is already doing that.



Is there any reason for them to go in at the Huber Workhorse/AMB "Affordable" series price level? Would more banjos in that category sell than are already selling, if they said "Gibson" on the peghead? I just don't see it. Hatfield is also available at about that price point, and it is an incredible value and tone that arguably matches or surpasses some significantly pricier entries--Could Gibson match that quality at the price point, and would they sell more than these entries are already selling? I just don't believe there are legions of untapped buyers at these prices who aren't delighted and satisfied with the offerings already out there.



Is there any reason for them to go in at the Yates/Huber price level? Those price points are where Gibson really went into piñata-land last time around. At those price points you must, must, must deliver a premium piece of art and a tone soufflé the way Yates, Huber, Stelling, Prucha can.  You have to bring tears to people' eyes at an exquisite object of craft and beauty, and a tone and power that reduces you to a puddle.  You can't coast on sentiment and romance. Gibson's QC as well as the substantive quality itself, just wasn't consistent enough at those price points.

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/29/2016 20:09:59

dhergert - Posted - 03/29/2016:  20:21:58

Well, we do know from fairly recent civil court case history that Gibson has a number of intellectual properties related to banjos, mandolins and Dobros that it probably still wants to preserve.  A few years before the flood Gibson took a number of legal actions (and spent a lot of money and made a lot of news) trying to protect those properties, so I suspect they still want to keep them.  That alone might be why they won't sell the name to another company for those instruments...  And that may be what the "history" reference that HJ made in his interview was all about

But I don't know, this is all speculation on my part.  That's why it's nice to hear from our insiders.

-- Don

Edited by - dhergert on 03/29/2016 20:33:42

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/30/2016:  09:56:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceemonster

[[[I'm not very good at predictions, but I'm pretty sure the world has seen the last new banjo from Gibson.]]]



That may be. I'm differentiating between what "officially" Gibson has said--and if there's been nothing for six years, does remain their "official" position until further notice. . .

---

Let me try again.

The comment I shared from the Gibson CEO was posted in a Gibson forum in 2010.  It was up to that time the closest thing to an official Gibson position on the possible future of their banjo line. The "further notice" as to the status of that position came some time after that when Gibson took down that forum and all the questions, comments and Gibson answers that had been posted there.  Gone.  As if they never existed.  When a company removes something from the Web, you can take that as their backing away from it. The previous statement is no longer "operative" as Richard Nixon's press secretary once said. 

There is now no publicly posted or accessible comment from Gibson on the future of Gibson banjos.  Even Mr. J's non-committal statement that he'd "like to get there sooner rather than later" is gone.  Six years have gone by.  It's too late for anything Gibson does to be sooner.

To Don's comment: we do know from fairly recent civil court case history that Gibson has a number of intellectual properties related to banjos, mandolins and Dobros that it probably still wants to preserve.

I think the only intellectual property related to banjos that Gibson may have claimed in those cases is the bell shaped truss rod cover.  I recall reading that in the case about guitars they filed against Saga not too many years ago.

But other than the Gibson name, I don't think Gibson owns anything related to banjos. I'm pretty sure Gibson's filing against Saga cited the guitar moustache peghead shape as a valuable trademark.  To my knowledge, they've never made a similar claim about the fiddle, double-cut or Coke bottle banjo peghead shapes.  Those patent numbers Gibson used to stamp inside rims in the 20s or 30s have long since expired. So whatever it was they once owned about rims or tone rings is fair game for anyone to make. Gibson never did anything about all the copies of their various banjo inlays or flanges -- I would assume because they never owned those, either.  Even the name "Mastertone" is not the property of Gibson.  I've confirmed that for myself in a trademark search.

As to why Gibson is not going to make banjos any more, I think it's mostly money. Henry J said as much in the now-removed comment from 2010: banjos were a very small part of a company that had grown very large.  That much is still true.

According to an October 2013 article in Fortune, Deering owned 80% to 90% of the U.S. banjo market and expected sales of about $5 million that year.  According to Hoover's, Gibson's revenues that year were $236 million.  So the biggest U.S. banjo maker was 2% the size of Gibson.  Worth noting is that while Deering was profitable, Gibson LOST $3.4 million that year, their revenues declined in 2014 and 2015, and the company lost a whopping $15 million in 2015.  Again, this is all according to a table posted at Hoover's.

If the Fortune article is correct and Deering's $5 million in sales was 80 to 90% of the U.S. banjo market, that would mean the market totalled $5.56 million to $6.25 million.  It means the remaining non-Deering market ranges from about $500,000 to $1.25 million.  (Sounds small, but who knows) There's no way of knowing what Fortune meant by "U.S. banjo market."  Total banjo sales in the U.S.? Or total sales of U.S.-made banjos?  Let's assume the latter.

I'm pretty sure that low-priced Goodtime banjos in all their configurations accounted for a big chunk of Deering's $5 million in sales in 2013.  Sub-$1000 banjos is a market that US-made "Gibson" branded banjos simply did not compete in.  Neither do Huber, Yates, Steling, Sullivan, Bishline, Nechville, Hatfield, AMB, the rest of the Deering line or others I'm probably forgetting.

Point is, that's a lot of makers of multi-thousand-dollar banjos competing for a relatively small market.  Each of them can apparently sell all the banjos they're able to make.  So even if the market is larger than these figures suggest (anyone have access to the Music Trades industry census?) it's not big when you consider Gibson's recent sales of $170 million or Fender's $700 million. 

Were Gibson ever to make banjos again (and I don't think they will) I would fully expect their base-level professional grade instrument to again be street priced at or above $3,000 as I recall it was when production stopped. Probably closer to $4,000.

But how many can they sell?  How much would it cost them to do? How much profit would they make?  Would it be worth the investment?  Would it be worth it to sub out production 100% and make money solely on the pass-through?  I don't know.

Seeing as Gibson has been losing millions of dollars a year and has seen sales drop for several years running, it seems to me they have bigger problems to solve right now than how or whether to restart a small but potentially expensive division that might contribute only a few percent per year to the company's top-line revenue.

I realize there are knowledgeable industry people here who believe Gibson management has their heads where the sun don't shine.  I'm not debating that. There well could be personality flaws or general ineptitude behind Gibson's decision to be out of the banjo business.  They could be blind to opportunities staring them in the face.  They could be jerks.  I don't know.  And neither do most of us here.

But it's their privately owned company to run any way they want without explaining to us why they do the things they do.

In the meantime, speculating about Gibson will have to remain our favorite armchair sport.

ceemonster - Posted - 03/30/2016:  15:55:28

[[When a company removes something from the Web, you can take that as their backing away from it. The previous statement is no longer "operative" as Richard Nixon's press secretary once said.]]]



Ah, the Web-removal part of the story I did not know. So, you're inferring from Corporate Kabuki? Certainly, a reasonable inference, and you may be right. But they haven't said they're not going to produce again, and we have another poster here who is inferring from the Corporate Kabuki of their recent patent-protection actions, that they are not saying they are through with banjo production forever. Also a reasonable inference, and that tea leaf-reader may be right.



I guess it's like Bertrand Russell's line about agnosticism being the only intellectually defensible position on the Supreme Being question. I think the only thing that is safe to say is, all signs point to it being unlikely there will be no banjos produced by Gibson in the near future.  

Very interesting banjo-market data.  Kind of gives substance to what a lot of guessers are getting at about the business sense of it not being there for Gibson.  At this time.  It's fascinating the way, over time, things that seem to have died out and been discarded or reduced, re-surge.   But--and I think this point has been made on other threads--by continuing to stay out of the game, Gibson may be losing the memory-association of future potential banjo customers f there was a resurgence.  Younger banjo players don't really care about Gibson any more than any other good banjo, but for the very few tyros who are in a position to seek and acquire a vintage one.. 

I came across youtube clips of a super-talented young bg player named Greg Donlan, who in many of the cips is playing a new mahogany Huber Workhorse, and also a vintage 70s Goldstar, both of which he said he was delighted with, and judging from the clips, for good reason.  There's no vacuum there, and I suspect this will be the case for the next waves of players, should there be waves.

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/30/2016 16:10:32

dhergert - Posted - 03/30/2016:  19:07:55

Well, there have certainly been some important points brought up here that I didn't have...  The financial losses that Gibson has been incurring, the drastic staff reductions (or just about department closure) in the Mills, the banjo and mando shop the year before the 2010 flood, and HJ's web description of "a tiny division in a company that has grown quite large" are among the most interesting facts for me.

And, we do know for certain is that there have been practically no Gibson banjos made since October 2009 and absolutely none made since the Nashville Flood.  And that since the flood, Gibson's banjo related tooling from previous years is all gone.  So unless Gibson has secretly been re-tooling for banjos at some secret location here in the States, they are not going to be in the USA-made banjo business tomorrow.  And we also know that Gibson has been making mandolins again recently, at least sometimes since the flood.

And, as well described, we do know Gibson is privately owned, and the owner is the CEO.

Is it possible that what we are considering as a horribly stupid move -- because deep inside we love the tradition of Gibson banjos -- is really a move that had to be made due to finances?  That while we feel somewhat like the red-haired stepchild of Gibson, perhaps the banjo decision was part of a number of decisions that had to be made in order for Gibson to survive at all?

I don't know these answers.  I also don't know if Gibson will ever make banjos again, or if they'll continue making mandos or if they will ever make Dobros again.  At this point in time, Gibson could decide to build any or all of these instruments again, or Gibson can continue to decide not to make them.  But the longer Gibson doesn't build these instruments, the less they will be missed.

-- Don

southerndrifter - Posted - 03/31/2016:  05:25:00

A truth and a speculation:

Truth - Any banjo with "Gibson" on the peghead, WILL sell. It's all about branding and name recognition. Many people will pass right by a better quality banjo of lesser known builders, to buy a Gibson. Also, resale will always be much greater. This truth was part of the reason behind the demise in quality of Gibson banjos......it didn't matter if it was a good instrument, it just needed to say "Gibson" on it!

Speculation - Perhaps it's the hayseed stigma still attached to the banjo that Gibson wants to avoid? I just can't envision HJ bragging to his colleagues about Gibson building great BANJOS! :)

Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/31/2016:  10:44:32

I would like to posit a different theory. Henry took a lot of flack while that case was in progress, including a whole lot right here in the BHO. And we know he was well aware of it, he even briefly participated. Personally, I think much of it was deserved, but it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up really, really pissed off at the banjo world. Maybe it's all just a big "screw you." It was such a small part of his overall operation, it probably didn't matter much one way or the other, financially.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dhergert

Well, we do know from fairly recent civil court case history that Gibson has a number of intellectual properties related to banjos, mandolins and Dobros that it probably still wants to preserve.  A few years before the flood Gibson took a number of legal actions (and spent a lot of money and made a lot of news) trying to protect those properties, so I suspect they still want to keep them.  That alone might be why they won't sell the name to another company for those instruments...  And that may be what the "history" reference that HJ made in his interview was all about

But I don't know, this is all speculation on my part.  That's why it's nice to hear from our insiders.

-- Don

---

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 03/31/2016 10:47:00

ceemonster - Posted - 03/31/2016:  19:40:15

They may also have their hands full with other issues. Gibson's guitar biz looks hyoooooge compared to its banjo market size. But under the surface, there are signs of trouble. Can't recall if it was 2013, 14, 0r 15, but they attempted some changes in their electrics that outraged the market and tanked sales. On a broader scale, the guitar market has been showing signs of slack-off that may be "structural" or linked to changes in the culture, rather than short-term tightening of the consumer wallet. A longtime guitar sales person at GC remarked to me a year or two ago that "rock and roll is dead" in terms of driving the aspirational dreams of would-be guitar players. And this was at the flagship on the Sunset Strip.  Do youngsters want to play musical instruments, period, the way they once did?  Not talking about the children whose parents push them into classical violin or piano.  I'm thinking now of kids clamoring to play instruments for the popular musical idioms of their time and place.  Of course it will never disappear, but is it occurring at the rates it once did, in the Skrillex age of electronica, sampling, and turntable DJ-ing?

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/31/2016 19:44:18

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 04/01/2016:  02:58:25

Since we're all armchair shrinks here, I tend to be in agreement with Don Borchelt's point. Except, the angst seems to have originated from Gibson itself and is reflected back by the community as I suggested in my earlier posts.

Those full page color gloss ads were very revealing back in the late 90s and early 2000s. I think HJ got upset because the community didn't respond to the holier-than-thou advertising approach, the disrespect shown its dealers, and the sudden increase in prices. In fact, it could easily be established that it backfired on Gibson. That's pretty evident. I mean, you don't drop hundreds of dealers and expect to grow your brand more. Those dealers who got cut off wree pretty upset. You don't grow a brand by pissing off people the way Gibson has done.

So yeah, I could see this as punishment from Gibson. It sure feels like it is, and if it walks like a duck ...

 

Regarding the idea that Gibson is privately owned and operated so they can run it how they see fit ... well, that's true of any company no matter how or who runs it. The flipside is we, as individual private persons, have every right to comment on how this or any company is run. The notion that because it's private and we have no say is kind of baseless, really. There are plenty of good models on how to operate banjo companies, and I think integrity and accessibility are parts of the formula. Ingredients that on review, seem lacking when talking about Gibson IMHO.

My two cents and opinion for what it's worth.

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 04/01/2016:  07:33:16

I had some edits and additions to the above post but the website froze up for a while and the 15 minute timeframe passed.

So all I was really going to add is, there is a distinction that must be made between Gibson the company, and Gibson the instrument.

In any event, when you pull the plug on hundreds of loyal dealers you can't then expect them to then sing your praises. I gave the real example of Ciderville Music in the Knoxville area, a very well known music store. Ask that owner what he still thinks of Gibson (the company) to this day. Those missteps left a bitter taste for lots of former dealers, and they don't operate in a vacuum. Many of then are still angry to this day abut the way they were treated. Just ask them.

Nancy - Posted - 04/01/2016:  07:44:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

 

Well, here we go again.

---

Yes. I see anger here from so many.

I love Gibson. I love the history. I love Earl and his music. I simply enjoy the sounds of the Gibson and have for many years. Nothing else is a GIBSON. It has been the flagship for bluegrass for so many. That name on the headstock meant something to thousands of fans. They save and hope to own one of these prewars or later. it's been the 'end of the rainbow' ...a hope to play one and even be the owner. Dreams are made of things like this.

  Yes. The sound of the prewar (I did get to play one) and own a couple of Gibsons even. Bought them from Curtis McPeak...the most wonderful of people. I adore Curtis. I call him "Friend". Respect for he and respect for Earl. Yes. I have deep respect for Gibson name.

I wish that the Gibson Banjos were still being made...quality like no other...the REAL GIBSONS. Time takes away things and adds things. I realize that. Still, the nostalgia is there. It will always be so.

I am a Gibson fan. That is so. Love the instrument. Much appreciation for the years that Gibson did build the banjo.

No, I do not play real well, but enjoy the Gibson. That is why it was done in the first place, methinks...TO ENJOY. TO LOVE. Thank you, Gibson for making this instrument possible for all of us to play and enjoy.

Nancy

This post was done in love...love of the Gibson banjo. Peace to all of you.

Edited by - Nancy on 04/01/2016 07:50:53

dhergert - Posted - 04/01/2016:  07:58:20

Hi Frank,

<< The notion that because it's private and we have no say is kind of baseless, really. >>

I agree with this, but at the same time, no matter what we say or even do from a customer standpoint, the company will make it's own decisions.  HJ has demonstrated that in the past numerous times.  At this time it's pretty futile to get upset about things.

-- Don

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 04/01/2016:  08:05:48

LOL I'm not upset. I'm just engaging in conversation and putting up information I know to be accurate about this topic.

I don't have a pony in this race. And as Nancy's post above reinforces my point, being that there is a distinction to be made between Gibson the company, and Gibson the instrument. Once can love one, and not the other, and still remain in balance.

Ciderville Music still sells plenty of used Gibsons, banjos, electric guitars, and so forth. But still, ask the owner his opinion of Gibson the company.

But I sure don't lose any sleep over what Gibson does or doesn't do LOL. I'm just an interested observer, and I was there watching all this come down the way it did, as an outsider with friends who were directly affected in a negative way.

Anyway,m all from me on this one, because at the end of the day, it's a dead horse.

Nancy - Posted - 04/01/2016:  08:17:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

 

LOL I'm not upset. I'm just engaging in conversation and putting up information I know to be accurate about this topic.

I don't have a pony in this race. And as Nancy's post above reinforces my point, being that there is a distinction to be made between Gibson the company, and Gibson the instrument. Once can love one, and not the other, and still remain in balance.

Ciderville Music still sells plenty of used Gibsons, banjos, electric guitars, and so forth. But still, ask the owner his opinion of Gibson the company.

But I sure don't lose any sleep over what Gibson does or doesn't do LOL. I'm just an interested observer, and I was there watching all this come down the way it did, as an outsider with friends who were directly affected in a negative way.

Anyway,m all from me on this one, because at the end of the day, it's a dead horse.

---

My point is that I simply love the Gibson Banjo. Love the Gibson Guitar. Enjoy. That's the bottom line with me.

I smile like everything when reruns of "Beverly Hillbillies" with Earl and Lester come on the kitchen tv. I sit...pat my foot and grin. My first taste of how a Gibson sounded. Nothing like it. Love at that start. I wanted a real Gibson like Earl's. I adored Earl and the banjo. How neat is that?

I don't know the company. Don't have a big interest. Love the product.

Same with my trucks and cars. Don't know the companies...love the products. Easy way to see it.

Nancy

F Elisha Eastes Jr - Posted - 04/01/2016:  08:37:37

And I LOVE the RB4 model and all the top tension models Gibson ever made. I've picked plenty of prewars at banjothon. There's nothing like them. Some of them are dreams, and I could name a few specific well known banjos that are great players too. The Reverend O'dell Gibson comes to mind, it plays great and has a history right back to the furniture stores where it was bought new. It just doesn't get any better than that.

So yeah there is plenty of nostalgia and love of the instruments and I share that too. I think it just stinks how the banjo line was run into the ground.

If I ever have a chance to get one I'll grab it but it will be contemporary and used for sure. It's on my bucket list.

Nancy - Posted - 04/01/2016:  08:52:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

 

And I LOVE the RB4 model and all the top tension models Gibson ever made. I've picked plenty of prewars at banjothon. There's nothing like them. Some of them are dreams, and I could name a few specific well known banjos that are great players too. The Reverend O'dell Gibson comes to mind, it plays great and has a history right back to the furniture stores where it was bought new. It just doesn't get any better than that.

So yeah there is plenty of nostalgia and love of the instruments and I share that too. I think it just stinks how the banjo line was run into the ground.

If I ever have a chance to get one I'll grab it but it will be contemporary and used for sure. It's on my bucket list.

---

It's a good dream. Mine came true...

Some of my instruments are photos on my home page. Little kids of mine that eat wire.

I won't say that I am done...that brings on another instrument. Always.

We agree on the Gibson Banjos.

I also have a big like for Deering...and others.

Old Dobro stuff (real) is one of my things, too.

Peace.

Nancy

Right now, I am whining for a classic Caddy...(note to me...LEAVE IT ALONE!)

Edited by - Nancy on 04/01/2016 08:55:15

anbanco - Posted - 04/01/2016:  20:08:04

I posted sometime back, that according to an article in Musical Merchandise Review, guitars accounted for only 30% of total production from Gibson Brands. Also the instrument division was a losing proposition for Gibson. Their main source of revenue coming from their consumer electronics, recording and pro-audio divisions. So it's no wonder fretted instruments have taken a back seat, especially banjos. It was also stated that there would always be Gibson guitars available for the consumer that wanted one.

dupreejan - Posted - 04/01/2016:  20:37:01

Not only has guitar sales been going steadily down for the last few years, but sales of all instruments are on a decline. What drives the market is young people taking up guitar, keyboards, drums, banjos, mandolins etc. And that just ain't happening. It will take something akin to the 60's and 70's music scene to make that happen. So unless we see bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and Led Zepplin again the guitar business will become even flatter than it is now.