ZEPP - Posted - 05/22/2014:  06:56:19

A contemporaneous thread discussing the value of  the modern practice of "scooping" fingerboards leads me to wonder a bit about about its post WWII origins and recent increase in popularity.

I know Tony (oldwoodchuckb) has told us that he had scooped some necks years before they became ubiquitous, but I really don't have a sense of their history. Although I've been playing banjo for 53 years now, I had never seen a scooped neck or even heard of such a thing until the mid-1990s.  At that time a relatively new banjo builder named Mike Ramsey was selling banjos specifically aimed at the growing "old-time music" market.  Ramsey scooped the necks routinely and also offered 12-inch pots; as nearly as  I can tell, there were few--if any--other builders for whom these were common, much less standard, practices at the time.  (Incidentally, I suspect Mike followed this course in part because he wanted to build banjos that did not compete with those of his good friend and banjo mentor, Bart Reiter.)

When I first heard of the things they were usually called "frailing scoops," but the word "frailing" seems to have fallen off the term, so that now they're simply called "scoops."  I have never heard anyone call them "clawhammer scoops," even though the term "clawhammer" has largely supplanted "frailing" in the lexicon.

So what can be filled in here?  Does anyone have some information to help fill in the history of the modern practice of scooping necks specifically for clawhammer during the past 70 years or so?  

Cheers,

ZEPP

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/22/2014:  07:19:18

I recollect reading somewhere that Bob Flesher & Kyle Creed [apologies, inevitable insertion of Round Peak into the conversation] had some involvement in the development of the scoop.

laertes22 - Posted - 05/22/2014:  07:22:58

This came up in a thread some years ago, I believe



banjohangout.org/archive/184768

I remember reading on the minstrel forum and in some other sites that people  looking at minstrel era banjos notice a "gap" on the neck between the head and fingerboard (or in early fretted banjo some seem to lack frets near where the neck and head meet), and this is mistaken by some for an early "scoop".  However, there is pretty much zero evidence that people played up there, that I am aware of.  I've not been playing long, but I have yet to come across any testimonial by people who've been playing for decades and decades that they ever saw a real scoop before the 80s or 90s.  Probably just one of those fashionable things, like preferring open backs over resonators.  Then again, please take anything I say with a huge grain of salt, cause I have been known to be wrong.

Edit: As was mentioned by plunknplinkntwang the thread I linked does make mention of Kyle Creed being involved with the development of the scoop.

-Edit

Edited by - laertes22 on 05/22/2014 07:25:48

chip arnold - Posted - 05/22/2014:  07:26:26

Zepp, did you ever ask Mike about what got him thinking of scooping? 

Were any of Creed's banjos scooped?

raybob - Posted - 05/22/2014:  07:45:45

I'm probably way off, but I think I remember reading somewhere it was Mac Benford that did this to a banjo.

ZEPP - Posted - 05/22/2014:  07:51:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Zepp, did you ever ask Mike about what got him thinking of scooping? 

Were any of Creed's banjos scooped?

---

Nope, I haven't, as I have never given this much thought before, but I shall certainly bring it up the next time we speak!

Cheers,

ZEPP

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/22/2014:  08:12:27

I have a banjo with a scoop from 1982ish. But the scoop was an accidental artifact of the way it was put together.

The banjo was assembled from found parts by Chuck Baker of the then existing Montreal Folklore Centre. It started with a tenor neck to which he added a fifth peg, and was wedded to a 9" skin headed pot. However, the neck was too long for the pot, and in order to make the bridge actually end up on the head (and not an inch or so into the space beyond the head, which of course is an impossibility), he lifted the fingerboard (with the frets intact) off the neck, removed a couple of frets worth of fingerboard at the nut end, and then moved the new shorter fingerboard up to the nut, and glued it into place.

The fingerboard was unusually thick, and this created a fairly deep two inch or so gap at the pot end of the neck between the end of the fingerboard and the end of the neck. In other words: a scoop.

When Chuck sold me the banjo he did theorize that the space there would make it easier to play over the neck, which he knew I sometimes did. So I credit him with inventing the scoop inadvertently, and independently of everyone else.

These were pre-internet days, and word of mouth of such things spread slowly - so who knows how many people may have been developing the scoop idea at around the same time, not knowing about the others?

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 05/22/2014 08:15:23

twelvefret - Posted - 05/22/2014:  08:20:02

I have a minstrel banjo by Noel Booth. The way the neck fits, it resembles scoop, but not for the intent to play over the neck, I assume.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/22/2014:  10:35:24

I've always guessed that the "scoop" seen at the pot and neck joint on minstrel era banjos being so deep was there to facilitate replacing
the head without having to remove the neck from the pot.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/22/2014:  10:51:05

I scooped a couple banjos back in the late 70s but it was not something our customers were demanding. I think it was just a couple banjo players from the Oneonta, NY area who were into scoops back then. I do know I did at least one traditional frailing scoop - removing all the frets at the top of the neck and sanding half the fingerboard off. I also did at least one "thumb scoop" removing a triangle shaped piece of wood from the edge of a fingerboard. I have little memory of the people who got their necks scooped and no memory if they said anything about where they got the idea, but I do know they were from out of our area and came up to town because we had the best repair shop between NYC and Montreal.

We called them "Cut-Aways". I didn't hear anyone call them scoops until the 1990s.

I should point out that we also did othere modifications to banjos - like resetting necks to come in to the pot at a sharper angle, allowing for a taller bridge - at a time when 5/8ths and 1/4 seemed to be the most common sizes on 5 strings. We would reset for 11/64ths or 3/4. These seem to be the standard bridge heights of modern "bootike" openbacks by makers like Ramsey and Lee.

The 19th Century scoops always looked to me as if they were designed to facilitate changing the banjo head - which is not to say that no one ever played in the scoop area, but I certainly don't think that was their main function.

Dale Morris - Posted - 05/22/2014:  11:41:36

I'm thinking the late Kyle Creed made several 12" banjos before Mike Ramsey did, however, I don't believe Kyle was putting scoops on banjo necks. Kyle did play over the neck, but preferred cutting the neck angle so as he could have high action.

SFI - Posted - 05/22/2014:  18:22:06

At Goose Acres, in Cleveland, Ohio, we started scooping necks for openback banjos in the mid 1980's We were not the first and were copying other makers. I just do not remember who those other makers were. We also called it a cutaway.

The now popular S shaped scoop was innovated by Kevin Enoch in the early 1990's. He, unfortunately, didn't patent his unique idea and that design is now copied by many.

Bob Smakula

smakula.com

banjot - Posted - 05/22/2014:  19:08:10

I'm with Dale. To the best of my knowledge, Kyle Creed never scooped a neck. I do own a banjo Kyle made where he seems to have not bothered to fret the last few inches of the fingerboard.

I've always been under the impression that the late Ray Alden, while maybe not the first to scoop a neck, should be credited with starting the 'scooping craze.'

Tom Mylet

Clawdan - Posted - 05/23/2014:  08:31:04

What Bobby said about GA necks. Worked there, had a couple. BUT take a look at the old Bouche style instruments - neck droped at the heel from accomplishing the same basic idea and I have seen and played more than a few instruments from the 1800's that were unfretted at the neck joint for a few spots allowing the same thing. Question might be who and when folks played up over that neck joint. Until BG setups became common, there was enough clearance to not need a scoop or frailing notch as I have also heard it referred to.

SO, not SO new, but perhaps not new at all.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/23/2014:  10:38:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

What Bobby said about GA necks. Worked there, had a couple. BUT take a look at the old Bouche style instruments - neck droped at the heel from accomplishing the same basic idea and I have seen and played more than a few instruments from the 1800's that were unfretted at the neck joint for a few spots allowing the same thing. Question might be who and when folks played up over that neck joint. Until BG setups became common, there was enough clearance to not need a scoop or frailing notch as I have also heard it referred to.

SO, not SO new, but perhaps not new at all.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

---

Think like a manufacturer.  Those "1800's (late 19th century?) that were unfretted at the neck joint" were not made that way for easy right hand playing over the neck.  It was to prevent complaints.  

Strings were more commonly "false" than true.  That means that the string was of uneven thickness.  This caused intonation problems with raised frets.  This becomes more noticeable above the 10th position.  Leaving that higher register smooth allowed one to stop the notes there and adjust for false strings.  They then would not complain that the neck was fretted incorrectly.

The "scoops" on mid 19th century banjos was a aesthetic carryover from the tack head banjo.  Notice on extant examples that they are sharp, dramatic and grotesque. Completely different than the gentle and smooth modern creation.

One of the things I've noticed about recent histories of popular instruments in book form is that many times the author focuses on the nuts and bolts and does not really understand why people wanted them in the first place.

To give an modern example of how the concept of "scoops" is counter productive to the tastes of 19th century banjoists.  I recently played a "concert" (recital) at our local library.  I'm no pro.  I play with nylon strings (Labella 17s infact).  The gent operating the sound system could not hear the speakers over my banjo during the sound test.  The actually program was played together with my wife.  They turned off my mic and left hers on.

I play "concert style" a hard attack near the bridge.  I learned this from Clarke Buehling as well as reading everything I can get my hands on from the 19th century-- not about.

Playing over the neck is counter to everything the masses wanted out of their banjos.  No amplification meant a loud sharp tone was needed. Gut strings are quite loud.  "Tub" banjos (early style) played with Briggs pitch and a thimble produce a wall of sound that is astonishingly powerful when done to period protocol.

Below you will see famous 19th century banjoists-- pros with their instruments.  Those "scoops" are not the pleasant "frailing scoops" we see today.

I think we can safely rule out any connection with the modern "frailing scoop" and the early banjo deigns.

Early banjos-- missing the base of the fingerboard.  Later banjos-- it is there.  1890s-- machine truing, SSS reintroduces the three octave neck (22 frets).  Turn of the century-- R&L and Farland are offering 24+ fretted necks, large size banjos with fretted extensions over the head.  WW1 happens and strings are hard to come by (countries that make them set to killing one another).  War ends and everybody wants to tango with plectrums.

Nobody cares about five stringers anymore.  Ten or so years later it is all wire strings and country music.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 05/23/2014:  13:47:55

May have developed from playing/seeing the late 19th c. banjos that were unfretted from 17 to the pot.

twelvefret - Posted - 05/23/2014:  15:07:29

I don't know if this is related, but old cowboy movies showed the guitar being played above the sound hole.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 05/23/2014:  15:47:58

So when banjos were naturally plunky the players were trying for a bright sound, and now that banjos are naturally bright---------

stevel - Posted - 05/23/2014:  18:51:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

So when banjos were naturally plunky the players were trying for a bright sound, and now that banjos are naturally bright---------

---

banjo paradox.....

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/23/2014:  20:12:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

So when banjos were naturally plunky the players were trying for a bright sound, and now that banjos are naturally bright---------

---

Except that they were not "plunky."

youtu.be/5rW0fmFjyI8

RG - Posted - 05/23/2014:  20:51:47

Plunky?  Tell that to Charles Asbury on this 1894 stroke style recording...I have not run across a Kyle Creed banjo that was scooped...

cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/mp3...8103d.mp3

Edited by - RG on 05/23/2014 20:54:29

cbcarlisle - Posted - 05/23/2014:  21:27:43

We really should come up with another term for the nineteenth-century eccentric neck attachments (which gradually  were tamed, probably thanks to changing from handwork to mass production) as opposed to the modern "scoop." Anybody?

There is a common problem in archeology of mistaking resemblance for relationship. These were two different critters.

Edited by - cbcarlisle on 05/23/2014 21:29:41

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 05/24/2014:  06:58:20

Good morning, BHO'ers. 

A good many of the scoops I’ve seen on vintage instruments – Stewarts, for example – were after market changes made to the instruments in the 20^th century, when these old banjos were adopted as weapons of choice by clawhammer players.  Such players removed the frets near the beck/rim joint, and cut a recess to accommodate their practice of playing over the neck, north of the rim.

I can’t ascribe this argument to any one person in particular, but I have heard the case made that the practice of playing over the neck was an “urban affectation” adopted because some of the best players in Washington Square Park (perhaps during the fifties and sixties) were playing that way. 

I’m not sure I attach any credibility to that argument, but I thought it was worth reporting since I’ve heard it repeated in different contexts in discussions with different players.

When I learned clawhammer from Bates Littlehales and Dwight Diller, both West Virginia players, they played the way the people from whom they learned played, over the head.  They reasoned that playing over the head gave a bit more stability to the right hand work, and added a dimension to the sound in the form of the percussive effect of the right hand --  the thumb, and in some instances the pinky and ring finger -- scratching or banging the head. 

The best scoops I’ve had on banjos -- scoops I never really used except for the minor occasions when I ventured out over the neck just to see what it felts like – were on the two instruments I owned that were designed and built by Jason Burns of Birmingham, Alabama. 

His scoop was level with the head, which meant the fretted part of the neck was higher than the head giving the player the ability to have a taller bridge with a slightly shallower neck angle. It was an extremely user-friendly approach to designing a scoop as part of the overall construction of the banjo. 

Play hard,

Lew

SoundsGoodToMe - Posted - 05/24/2014:  08:18:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by cbcarlisle

We really should come up with another term for the nineteenth-century eccentric neck attachments (which gradually  were tamed, probably thanks to changing from handwork to mass production) as opposed to the modern "scoop." Anybody?

There is a common problem in archeology of mistaking resemblance for relationship. These were two different critters.

---

I've heard those old banjos with the deep cutout over the tension ring referred to as "crank-neck banjos" on a couple occasions, but the term doesn't seem to be very commonly used.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/24/2014:  11:32:32

It is probably impossible to change the way people refer to the 19th century scoops. language being language, people will always use the original term even though it is wrong. Look at the vast number of people who call Frankenstein's Monster "Frankenstein". Even people who actually know better.

twelvefret - Posted - 05/24/2014:  12:12:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

It is probably impossible to change the way people refer to the 19th century scoops. language being language, people will always use the original term even though it is wrong. Look at the vast number of people who call Frankenstein's Monster "Frankenstein". Even people who actually know better.

---

Igor: Dr. Frankenstein...

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: "Fronkensteen."

Igor: You're putting me on.

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No, it's pronounced "Fronkensteen."

Igor: Do you also say "Froaderick"?

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No... "Frederick."

Igor: Well, why isn't it "Froaderick Fronkensteen"?

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: It isn't; it's "Frederick Fronkensteen."

Igor: I see.

Fathand - Posted - 05/24/2014:  12:31:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by twelvefret

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

It is probably impossible to change the way people refer to the 19th century scoops. language being language, people will always use the original term even though it is wrong. Look at the vast number of people who call Frankenstein's Monster "Frankenstein". Even people who actually know better.

---

Igor: Dr. Frankenstein...

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: "Fronkensteen."

Igor: You're putting me on.

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No, it's pronounced "Fronkensteen."

Igor: Do you also say "Froaderick"?

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: No... "Frederick."

Igor: Well, why isn't it "Froaderick Fronkensteen"?

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: It isn't; it's "Frederick Fronkensteen."

Igor: I see.

---

 Frau Blucher!!!!!

Neeeigghhh Whinnyyy