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Jellodepello - Posted - 10/31/2012: 11:33:51
Hi folks,
It's me again. From all the replies to my last post, where I'm very thankful for, I read all kind of things about tone rings.
First of all, WHAT IS A TONE RING? 
I did some research and I can point out where in the banjo its placed, but what's the actual use of it?
My first banjo, which I bought for 220 euros, doesn't have one I think.
So what makes the difference, and what makes a tone ring a good one?
Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 10/31/2012: 11:59:09
Wow...you're gonna get a ton of replies to this one.
The strings vibrate at a certain pitch, and most of that vibration is passed through the bridge to the head to the rim. Think of the tone ring as accentuating the sound that's produced at the rim. Banjos with mastertone style tone rings (like the RK that you're looking at) are usually believed to be the loudest with the best bluegrass tone. That's probably a pretty elementary explanation, but it'll get the conversation started anyway.
The best bluegrass tone rings will be heavy and bronze with some sort of plating (nickel or gold). Tone rings alone can cost close to $800 US now (that's the tone ring with no banjo attached). Opinions are all over the board as to whose tone ring is the best, and even the role the tone ring plays in the overall sound. You'll find much disagreement on this topic. Enjoy.
FiveStringer - Posted - 10/31/2012: 12:06:56
The tone ring is a metal ring that sits under the head and vibrates like a bell, transmitting sound to the wood banjo rim. The classic bluegrass ring is called a flathead tone ring.
Jellodepello - Posted - 10/31/2012: 12:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Wilkerson
Wow...you're gonna get a ton of replies to this one.
The strings vibrate at a certain pitch, and most of that vibration is passed through the bridge to the head to the rim. Think of the tone ring as accentuating the sound that's produced at the rim. Banjos with mastertone style tone rings (like the RK that you're looking at) are usually believed to be the loudest with the best bluegrass tone. That's probably a pretty elementary explanation, but it'll get the conversation started anyway.
The best bluegrass tone rings will be heavy and bronze with some sort of plating (nickel or gold). Tone rings alone can cost close to $800 US now (that's the tone ring with no banjo attached). Opinions are all over the board as to whose tone ring is the best, and even the role the tone ring plays in the overall sound. You'll find much disagreement on this topic. Enjoy.
That's a pretty good explanation! Thanks.
But is it possible that the Banjo I have now, doesn't have a tone ring? Because then, how can it produce sound? Or does the tone ring only give an extra twist to it?
And how can a Recording King have a tone ring worth 800 bucks when the banjo only costs 700?
Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 10/31/2012: 12:48:00
quote:
Originally posted by Jellodepello
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Wilkerson
Wow...you're gonna get a ton of replies to this one.
The strings vibrate at a certain pitch, and most of that vibration is passed through the bridge to the head to the rim. Think of the tone ring as accentuating the sound that's produced at the rim. Banjos with mastertone style tone rings (like the RK that you're looking at) are usually believed to be the loudest with the best bluegrass tone. That's probably a pretty elementary explanation, but it'll get the conversation started anyway.
The best bluegrass tone rings will be heavy and bronze with some sort of plating (nickel or gold). Tone rings alone can cost close to $800 US now (that's the tone ring with no banjo attached). Opinions are all over the board as to whose tone ring is the best, and even the role the tone ring plays in the overall sound. You'll find much disagreement on this topic. Enjoy.
That's a pretty good explanation! Thanks.
But is it possible that the Banjo I have now, doesn't have a tone ring? Because then, how can it produce sound? Or does the tone ring only give an extra twist to it?
And how can a Recording King have a tone ring worth 800 bucks when the banjo only costs 700?
The tone ring just gives an extra boost (or ring I should say).
The Recording King does not have an $800 tone ring (obviously), it has a mastertone-style (flathead) tone ring. Some folks are making tone rings that are the mastertone style that are priced in that neighborhood (for example)
Brevabloke - Posted - 10/31/2012: 12:52:38
The banjo would produce some kind of sound out of any tone ring as long as it was a hard material. Could even be glass if you fancied that. Its the strings that vibrate the bridge that vibrates the head that makes the sound, and IMHO the tone ring acts sort of like a "nut for the head" - lets it vibrate in a certain manner. But it is commonly believed that all sorts of different tone rings give different tones to a banjo - this is not beyond the realms of science. Where I lose it a bit is where they claim this one made from recycled space shuttle oleo legs stored in a barrel made in the civil war (English) and coated in fossilised gnats droppings is worth XXXX just because we say so or some famous player is paid to say so.
Its whatever YOU like.
Old Hickory - Posted - 10/31/2012: 13:03:00
Here is a picture of a bluegrass banjo "pot" without a head, showing the metal tone ring sitting on top of the wood rim. Notice that inside the pot the ring meets the top of the rim whereas outside the pot, the "skirt" of the ring extends down below the top of the rim. A portion of the rim is cut away on a lathe to create the channel (rabbet?) in which the ring skirt goes. This rabbet has to be precisely cut so that ring evenly meets both the top of the rim and edge of wood below the rabbet.
Edited by - Old Hickory on 10/31/2012 13:07:26
Levi Fisher - Posted - 10/31/2012: 13:06:51
WOW Brevabloke!!!!.........Where can I buy one of those tonerings you described?????the fossilized gnat dropping drove me over the edge and I need one!!!!!!
Edited by - Levi Fisher on 10/31/2012 13:11:47
Jellodepello - Posted - 10/31/2012: 13:29:21
What about flathead vs archtop?
Brevabloke - Posted - 10/31/2012: 13:39:47
Ive got one Levi and there is a bridge in Sydney I can sell you as well......
pickNgrin - Posted - 10/31/2012: 13:53:53
quote:
Originally posted by Brevabloke
The banjo would produce some kind of sound out of any tone ring as long as it was a hard material. Could even be glass if you fancied that.
A guy I know actually made a flathead tone ring out of Pyrex. Unfortunately it broke when the head was being brought up to tension. Glass tone rings do not handle stress very well.
-matt
Old Hickory - Posted - 10/31/2012: 14:28:44
Archtops tend to produce a higher pitched, sharper tone. Flatheads can have more bass and maybe mellowness. This is all subjective. It's difficult to describe sounds.
And I've read suggestions that the original skin heads on the original archtops helped offset the sharpness and produce tones that we might associate with flatheads today.
I'd imagine that an archtop with a mahogany neck and a Fiberskyn head could be pretty mellow -- while also being loud and clear.
Doug Dillard and Ralph Stanley are two famous archtop players. When Doug would capo that thing up to the 5th fret . . . talk about high pitched!
beegee - Posted - 10/31/2012: 15:29:21
The biggest factor is the correct application of "goofer dust." Goofer dust is an old-timey Southern US mystical substance that must be applied surreptitiously to improve anything from car engines to a woman's beauty.
Jellodepello - Posted - 11/01/2012: 05:15:22
I now got a Richwood banjo, very cheap with aluminium rim. I think it does not have a tone ring. Is that possible? It's a lot like a Epiphone MB 200. Do they have a tone ring?
Jellodepello - Posted - 11/01/2012: 05:46:24
And one other question: What's so important about the flange? Much brands say things like: a one piece flange!
Whats good about that?
And I'm looking at Recording King now, the RK 35 has a: Mastertone style Bell Brass cast tone ring and the RK 80 for example has a Mastertone style tone ring. Any difference in that?
Edited by - Jellodepello on 11/01/2012 05:52:15
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/01/2012: 07:43:31
You have a one-peice, aluminum pot. This kind of means the "tone ring" is integrated into the rim. Really what it is, is a cheap way of making a banjo. Cheap Asian banjos often have this. No wooden rim with a tone ring, just a one-peice rim and ring all made out of aluminum. These can sound decent, but are inferior to a wood rim.
A traditional bluegrass banjo has a wooden rim, then a tone ring is sat down on it.
tonypassbanjorims.com/Gib2pcwr.jpg
Some banjos have a wood rim with no tone ring. Some have a wood rim with a tone "hoop". So rather than the big metal ring like in the link covering the top of the rim, it's just a metal hoop sitting on top of the rim. It gives a little more "ring" to the sound.
Some now have an integrated wood ring, instead of metal. Some people have replaced their metal ring with a wooden one to cut down on weight, and sometimes to mellow out the sound of their banjo.
tonypassbanjorims.com/images/R...Woody.jpg
Just stick around, do research, read threads, you'll start to get an idea of what goes into a banjo, what's "normal", and what some of the new innovations are.
I wrote a much more detailed response and lost it...so this is all I'm re-writing. 
steve davis - Posted - 11/01/2012: 09:13:24
There are many world class tonerings in 70s Japanese banjos.
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/01/2012: 09:18:54
Cheap Asian banjos. I have an '81 with a great tone ring, wooden rim. The cheap (not meaning inexpensive necessarily, but cheap) Asian banjos often have the one piece aluminum construction.
Brevabloke - Posted - 11/01/2012: 10:56:33
I'm lucky to have a 1970 Washburn made in Japan and its a pretty fair instrument. It does seem different to the Korean made B16s of late.
Old Hickory - Posted - 11/01/2012: 11:20:09
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
You have a one-peice, aluminum pot. This kind of means the "tone ring" is integrated into the rim. Really what it is, is a cheap way of making a banjo. Cheap Asian banjos often have this.
As do $1500 U.S.-made Deering Boston banjos.
OK, those are steel, not aluminum. But there's no tone ring and no wood. Just the steel rim.
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/01/2012: 11:38:29
Yeah, and I'll never understand why someone would pay over $1,000 for a metal pot banjo. I have heard people say that the Boston is great for recording, and of course it's pretty tough, but I really can't see paying that much for a banjo with a steel pot.
Deering seems to do this a lot...they take a great idea for an inexpensive banjo, and turn it into an expensive banjo. Just like with anything other than the Goodtime I or II. They dress them up a bit and charge $1,000 for them...I don't get it. But that's kind of derailing the thread.
And I really don't know all that much, when it comes right down to it.
MTBanjo - Posted - 11/01/2012: 11:40:13
And I'll agree, the Boston doesn't fit either of my definitions of "cheap". I don't understand the point of it, but it's a quality instrument, asking a premium price.
Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 11/01/2012: 11:41:36
quote:
Originally posted by MTBanjo
Yeah, and I'll never understand why someone would pay over $1,000 for a metal pot banjo. I have heard people say that the Boston is great for recording, and of course it's pretty tough, but I really can't see paying that much for a banjo with a steel pot.
Deering seems to do this a lot...they take a great idea for an inexpensive banjo, and turn it into an expensive banjo. Just like with anything other than the Goodtime I or II. They dress them up a bit and charge $1,000 for them...I don't get it. But that's kind of derailing the thread.
And I really don't know all that much, when it comes right down to it.
My first banjo was a Boston that I paid $500 for--money well spent, but $1000 is ridiculous.
ABK - Posted - 11/01/2012: 12:25:15
My 70's Japanese Mastertone copy, a "Morris" or "Morrisey" (both names are on the banjo) sounds pretty cool. It looks pretty good as well.
Deb D - Posted - 11/01/2012: 20:48:16
Thank you, Old Hickory. I'm new at this (less than a year) and play a beginner banjo. Until now I've been unable to make sense of the tone ring and its many variations. You are very gracious to answer so thoroughly questions which probably come up again and again. Kindnesses from folks like you make this a great place to visit.
Jellodepello - Posted - 11/02/2012: 04:29:21
quote:
Originally posted by Deb D
Thank you, Old Hickory. I'm new at this (less than a year) and play a beginner banjo. Until now I've been unable to make sense of the tone ring and its many variations. You are very gracious to answer so thoroughly questions which probably come up again and again. Kindnesses from folks like you make this a great place to visit.
Absolutely agree! It's amazing to see that so many people out here do their best to help beginning banjo players.
When I get better, I'm gonna do the same thing!
thecirclebroke - Posted - 11/08/2012: 09:06:12
As a metallurgist, sound waves travel through a medium like a metallic tone-ring via phonons. grain-boundaries, chemical composition, heat treatment, final microstructure can all affect the ways that these phonons travel through the medium and ultimately change the resonance frequency. I don't even think 2 pre-war tone rings will ever sound the same even if you looked at them under a TEM (transmission electron microscope) because you will see most of them time they will have varying grain-sizes, chemical compositions, etc. because of the poor casting technologies in the 20's 30's etc.
Edited by - thecirclebroke on 11/08/2012 09:07:57
bublnsqueak - Posted - 11/09/2012: 02:24:58
The original questioner might find it useful to note the language used:
Its universally called a 'tone' ring but I suspect it would be more accurately called a 'timbre' ring.
A quick definition:
"Timbre describes the difference between two tones played in the same pitch and volume. For example, timbre is what you observe when you decipher a piano from a guitar; or an acoustic guitar from an electric."
So two banjos can play the same notes (tones) but sound different (timbre).
I don't suppose we will ever call them timbre rings. But, when I was starting out, knowing the difference helped me to understand what they do.
More light than heat I hope.
Paul
'Jerusalem Ridge rerun' 13 min
'Richelieu banjo head' 4 hrs
