Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/03/2012:  11:42:49

10th Sep 2012 EDIT: I have added the drum rudiment terminology (drag or ruff) to the title wording. Mirek

As I understand the treble (precisely speaking the 16th+16th+8th notes in straight 4/4 rhythm) is played "on the beat" (edited) in the Irish reels on the banjo, i.e. starting on the 1st, 3rd, 5th or 7th note of the 8 8th notes.

My question is whether there are also the trebles [in the Irish reels played on the banjo] which do not START on the beat, but END on the beat - i.e. they start off-beat (on the 2nd, 4th, 6th or 8th note of the measure) and lead into the next beat. They are prominent e.g. in the G. Rossini's William Tell Overture: youtube.com/watch?v=IrAj7_kV6f4

Below are some tabs which should illustrate my question, together with my right hand fingering in three-finger style (I am simplifying here as I do not play the 8th notes by TITI but rather by TITM or TMTI).

Mirek

---|0---0---0---0---0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
    T   I   T   I   T   I   T   I


Conventional trebles starting on the beats:

---|0-0-0---0---0---0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |_| |   |   |   |   |   |   |
    T I M   T   I   T   I   T   I

---|0---0---0-0-0---0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |_| |   |   |   |   |
    T   I   T I M   T   I   T   I

---|0---0---0---0---0-0-0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |   |   |_| |   |   |
    T   I   T   I   T I M   T   I

---|0---0---0---0---0---0---0-0-0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |_| |
    T   I   T   I   T   I   T I M


Lead-in trebles starting on the off-beats and leading into the next beat:

0-0|0---0---0---0---0---0---0---0-0|0-
---|-------------------------------|-
|_| |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |_| |
I M T   I   T   I   T   I   T   I M T

---|0---0-0-0---0---0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |_| |   |   |   |   |   |
    T   I M T   I   T   I   T   I

---|0---0---0---0-0-0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |   |_| |   |   |   |
    T   I   T   I M T   I   T   I

---|0---0---0---0---0---0-0-0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |   |   |   |   |_| |   |
    T   I   T   I   T   I M T   I


Some interesting combinations:

---|0---0-0-0-0-0---0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |   |_| |_| |   |   |   |   |
    T   I M T I M   T   I   T   I

---|0-0-0---0---0-0-0---0---0---0--|-
---|-------------------------------|-
    |_| |   |   |_| |   |   |   |
    T I M   T   I M T   I   T   I

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 09/10/2012 11:50:30

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/05/2012:  01:09:12

There are some interesting answers at

thesession.org/discussions/display/29664

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/05/2012:  02:22:09

In the parallel discussion at thesession.org/discussions/display/29664 there was mentioned the reel Silver Spear thesession.org/tunes/display/182 .

In the 1st measure of my picture above there is the first full measure of this tune, with the treble starting on the 3rd note. (According to Enda Scahill's tutor it would be picked by DU DUD DUDU.)

The 2nd measure shows the same treble, written in the 16th notes.

The third measure shows the treble which is the subject of this thread - it starts on the 2nd note and ends on the original 3rd note.

So - are these "William Tell" trebles played on banjo in Irish traditional music?

(And how they would be picked? D DUD U DUDU?)

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/05/2012:  04:57:52

OK, the fourth measure is the way proposed by Llig Leahcim at The Session discussion.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/10/2012:  10:35:04

It seems that this thread is kind of my own blog, so I am adding here the exercise which is focused on two difficulties:

a) single string picking on thick strings (3rd = G and 4th = D) including the middle finger

b) switching the trebles between different strings.

The exercise is shown in parallel tabs for my DGdg banjo and for your 5-string banjos.

The first pair of  measures are the basic melody of the exercise. I play the 8th notes with TITM; you may prefer TITI.

The second pair of measures contains the triplet on the quarter notes. It is played by TIM.

Third pair of measures shows the "triplet" notated in 16th notes, played also by TIM.

Finally, the fourth pair of the measures shows the off-beat "William Tell" trebles ending on the main note, played by IMT.

mikey5string - Posted - 04/11/2012:  20:13:39

Ive always thought of them as triplets...

As far as use in irish trad, most if not all of the time they are not part of the melody but technique used by the player as ornamentation. They can be used where the player sees fit, usually learned from the playing others, or as part of a regional style.

Similar to a slur like a slide or pull off in BG banjo. A way to embellish the melody.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/15/2012:  06:35:07

The point is that from the rhythmic perspective they (the "triplets") may be executed differently - using your analogy with the pull-off in bluegrass, that one may be also executed as

a) the cut, if performed just after the first note is picked

b) the 16th-note pull-off if performed in the middle between two right-hand pickings

c) the 8th-note pull-off if performed together with the second picked note

Actually, the speed of the off-beat and on-beat trebles is different, in case one does not play the notes "straight". Here is my exercise (read: "exercise for myself") which combines the off-beat and on-beat trebles. If notated "straight", it seems that both trebles contain the same 16th notes (on different places).

First four measures are the melody without trebles, the following four measures contain the melody with trebles on the places where the same notes repeat.

The following picture shows the same exercise, but notated in the 12/8 rhythm, i.e. assuming that one plays with triplet feel. You can see that the off-beat trebles are notated by 16th notes here, while the on-beat trebles are in fact three equally long notes.

In reality, one usually plays somewhere between these two limits - i.e. between straight and triplet feel.

Mirek

Mirek Patek - Posted - 04/15/2012:  07:01:50

Here is the overview of various trebles (or triplets, if you prefer this word - note that I do not use the differentiation used in Enda Scahill's Irish bano tutors, i.e. "trebles contain the same notes, triplets contain different notes") in the first measure of the tune The Maid Behind the Bar thesession.org/tunes/display/64 .

The first measure contains the melody only - you can see that the 2nd and 3rd notes are the same. The second measure shows the fretting hand articulation - the cut performed by ring finger from the 4th fret; see my article at banjosessions.com/?p=242 .

The third measure shows the treble starting at the 1st note and played by TIM, the fourth measure shows the off-beat treble ending at the [original] 3rd note and played by IMT. Take care for differentiating these two rhythms.

The fifth measure shows the treble starting at the [original] 3rd note and played by TIM.

The sixth measure is kind of combination of the third and fifth one. Finally the seventh measure is the combination of the fourth and fifth one. Again, differentiate these two rhythms.

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 04/15/2012 07:10:19

captbanjo - Posted - 04/15/2012:  16:51:02

I've always understood the word 'triplet' in music to refer to the spaces in time (i.e. three notes in the space of a quarter note) and not as a reference to similar or different notes. On the other hand, I like Enda's school of thought because it might help one differentiate between the two acts.

Wayne

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mirek Patek

Here is the overview of various trebles (or triplets, if you prefer this word - note that I do not use the differentiation used in Enda Scahill's Irish bano tutors, i.e. "trebles contain the same notes, triplets contain different notes") in the first measure of the tune The Maid Behind the Bar thesession.org/tunes/display/64 . 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikey5string

Ive always thought of them as triplets...



As far as use in irish trad, most if not all of the time they are not part of the melody but technique used by the player as ornamentation. They can be used where the player sees fit, usually learned from the playing others, or as part of a regional style.



Similar to a slur like a slide or pull off in BG banjo. A way to embellish the melody.

---

Mirek Patek - Posted - 05/08/2012:  03:12:25

Here is another example of the difference between conventional trebles starting on the beat and the "William Tell" trebles leading into the beat. The picture presents different versions of the first two full measures of the Cooley's reel in standard notation, tab for my DGdg tenor banjo and tab for 5-string banjo.



First pair of measures shows the melody (source thesession.org/tunes/display/1 ). Above the DGdg tenor banjo tab there is written that I use the partial barre by my left index finger on the 2nd fret of the D and G strings - I play it with the tip of the finger by somehow declining the finger, not by the "bar" made by the finger. The reason is to avoid the switches of the index finger between 2nd frets of D and G strings - this way I may just lift and put back the ring finger on the 4th fret of G string. The 5-string tab uses the 4th fret of the G string in the first measure. Of course you may use the open B string too.



Second pair of measures shows the simplified version of the melody - I have omitted the second and last note of the first measure. Actually, I have omitted twice the first B note of the pair, so there remains the second B note only, which is on the beat (well, if the rhythm would be 4/4). The reason for this simplification is to show the path to the use of the lead-in trebles in the 9th-10th measures.



But first there is the fretting-hand articulation in the 5th-6th measures. As I use the 4th fret of G string for the B note (for obvious reason as I do not have B string), the optimal fretting hand articulation would be the strike (the hammer-on immediatelly following the right hand stroke). The hammer-on is performed by ring finger on the 4th string, but as the declined index finger holds the 2nd fret of the G string, the hammer on starts from the 2nd fret (that's why it is marked by the 2V symbol - see banjosessions.com/?p=242 for more details). If you use your open B string on your 5-string banjo, you may play the cut (quick pull-off) to that open string, or so called mordent (fast hammer-on from open string to e.g. 1st fret + immediate pull-off back to open string, in one motion).



The 7th-8th measures show the conventional triplet/treble - I am notating it here with 16th notes.



In the 9th-10th measures there are the "William Tell" trebles leading into the B note on the beat. It is crucial to keep the sufficient length of the note before the lead-in treble (here the E note on the 2nd fret of D string) - otherwise the ornament would morph into the conventional treble starting from that E note.



Finally, the 11th-12th measures show the overcaffeinated combination of the leading-in and conventional trebles, resulting in the chain of 16th notes. But, as shown in the first post from 14th April, in case of the usual lilt/swing/bounce, actually the first pair of the 16th notes is quicker than the pair from the conventional treble. Of course in higher speeds the difference diminishes.



mirekpatek.com/images/1st2nd_b...y%27s.JPG" />

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 05/08/2012 03:21:59

Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/11/2012:  18:42:58

That is well presented material, Mirek, nice job.   Are there accents that one might hear, and if so, where?  Stuttered triplets?  Stuttered quadruplets?  This reminds of a rhythmic variation on piping ornamentation, without the melismatic or intervallic variation.  Cool stuff.

Thank you for following through.  I love the over-caffeinated part, and the part about how the difference diminishes with tempo.  

Well said, brother.  

Best,

Tom

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 05/11/2012 18:53:58

Mirek Patek - Posted - 05/24/2012:  02:38:14

Tom, thanks for your words. Concerning accents - I hear that the treble leading to the main note apparently adds the extra accent to that main note, similarly to the "drum roll" (I have read the drum parallel in this discussion: mandolincafe.com/forum/showthr...let  ). About "stuttered" - if we both mean that some of the notes are muted by decreased fretting-hand pressure, then I purposedly leave this topic to the later time; first I want to grasp the picking-hand motion. And about "quadruplet" - I do not use this word as the equivalent of plain four 16th notes (in place of two 8th notes). And the true quadruplet in a classical sense (four equally-long notes in the space of three) is something I have never heard.

What I am practicing now is the placement of two 16th notes leading to the first or fourth note in the 6/8 rhythm as shown in the second part of the tab below (fifth to seventh measure). Again, I present the standard notation, tab for my DGdg tenor banjo and tab for 5-string banjo in gDGBd tuning. For the presentation I intentionally use the string(s) which we have in common.



The first measure shows just for the review my picking approach to the 6/8 rhythm. As I am mainly in "singlestring" mode, I play the first and fourth note by my right thumb, and the choice between T I M and T M I depends on the direction of the melody. I feel this is similar to the approach of strict DUD DUD flatpicking players (versus DUD UDU ones). However, this is not the topic of this thread so any comments should be placed elsewhere.



The second measure shows the conventional "triplet" on the first beat (in the first part of the measure it is notated by 16th notes, in the second part as the triplet). Here the picking-hand pattern is TIM I.



The third and fourth measures show the conventional "triplet" on the second beat (again, notated by 16th notes and as the triplet). In the third measure there is the  picking-hand pattern T TIM, which is my preferred pattern despite of the doubled thumb stroke. The fourth measure uses the T IMI pattern where is no thumb doubling, but I am not able to play the IMI "triplet" so solid as the TIM in the third measure.



Finally, the second part shows the 16th notes leading to the fourth note. This is the main reason of this post and my focus now. My preferred picking pattern T T IM(T) is shown in the fifth measure - you can see it is related to the T TIM pattern from the third measure as there is doubled thumb stroke, but here the 16th notes played by IM is postponed so it just leads to the next on-beat note.



The sixth measure shows the T I MI(T) pattern where is no doubled thumb, but there is the backward roll leading to the next on-beat note. Not my preferred option now but it may change in the future.



The seventh measure shows the T I TI(T) pattern - here I have the problem that my right hand tends to play T I TI(M) with the middle finger on the next on-beat note; this I want to avoid.

I would like to hear from the readers what would be your preferred patterns for these 16th notes leading to the next beat (as shown in the fifth to seventh measures below). Of course one may say "it depends" but then you may at least identify the non-preferred patterns.



Thanks

Mirek

Mirek Patek - Posted - 05/24/2012:  08:18:04

Here is the example of the etude that compares different placement of the 16th notes in the 6/8 rhythm.

First line shows the basic melody. Note that I play the descending 8th notes always by T M I even if this means that the middle finger is on the thicker string than the thumb.

Second line shows the conventional "treble" on the 1st note, played by TIM I pattern. Third line shows the conventional "treble on the 2nd note, played by T TIM pattern.

The last line shows the subject of this thread - the "treble" leading to the next beat, played by T T IM(T) pattern.

Of course this is just one example of the etude for practicing different trebles in 6/8 rhythm, the goal is to be able to switch between these types and put the treble to desired place on the spot. I need to practice the placement of the notes not only on one string (like in the first and fourth measure), but also on two strings (like in the second and third measure, plus another combinations) and if possible also spanning three strings (which is quite difficult but fortunately rare in case of tenor banjo with big intervals between the strings).

Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/24/2012:  17:08:38

Good on you Mirek.  That's using your noodle.  I will get back to these, off to Ennis to play at the trad festival there with tenor banjoist Dave Harper, and it's too late to try these out now, but I will after I recover from my weekend.  

Your stuff is great, so cogently presented and considering the macro and micro.  Thank you, brother.  I have the greatest respect for your materials and clear thinking.  Now I have more homework, haha.  But I like homework.  

At a cursory glance, I notice that your fingerings need to be practiced slowly.  Accuracy builds speed.  I would not try any of these etudes at blinding tempos.  Great stuff!

Best ~ Tom

Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/29/2012:  12:33:18

Okay, Mirek, these are interesting exercises and worthy goals, no doubt.  I'm struck by the interpolations (notes between the notes) you have generously and meticulously mapped out here, and your etudes seem to fall almost entirely in the camp of rhythmic variation. They would make for rigorous practice drills for those who are so inclined, yet they seem abstractions, bordering on problem-solving exercises.  One might ask:  Are these etudes concerned with whole tunes as they are commonly played, heard and felt at sessions?  

I am always afraid of making tunes serve abstract technique of any kind, and I like to come to technique by going for the sounds that I want to hear, after I've gotten familiar with how a tune goes.  One tune at a time.

Personally, I'm not keen on exercises for the sake of exercises, exercises abstracted from actual melodies, risking repetitive stress injuries, tendonitis and the like, when I could be playing tunes cut from whole cloth - not assembled as rhythmic exercises from a desk - while listening intently and seeking to incorporate melodic and intervallic variations that are commonly played and felt within Irish and Celtic tradition, especially at sessions.

There are so many types of variation that one can play that don't have to do with strict rhythmic studies, but have more to do with melismata and substituting alternative tones, or using different interval leaps - these combined with rhythmic variation, but not predicated on or solely dictated by it.  It's good to be greasy and improvise from the heart, and listen to what other plays do who live and breathe the music, not as exercises, but in live performances.

Have fun with these, brotherman.  

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 05/29/2012 12:42:27

Tom Hanway - Posted - 05/29/2012:  13:06:21

I missed the window for editing.  The second to last paragraph should read:  There are so many types of variation that one can play that don't have to do with strict rhythmic studies, but have more to do with melismata and substituting alternative tones, or using different interval leaps - these combined with rhythmic variation, but not predicated on or solely dictated by it.  It's good to be greasy and improvise from the heart, and listen to what others play who live and breathe the music, not as exercises, but in live performances.

Have fun with these, brotherman.  

Mirek Patek - Posted - 05/29/2012:  15:25:02

Tom, thanks for your reply.

This thread is focused sharply on the single type of rhythmic variation - the off-beat/lead-in trebles. They are presented in this thread next to the conventional trebles (on-beat treble in 4/4 rhythm, first-note treble and second-note treble in 6/8 rhythm).

Here is the case study of the jig The Lilting Banshee. I do not play it as it is shown at thesession.org/tunes/display/60 - actually, I play the version shown in abc notation posted by glauber in the discussion.

Here is the tab of plain version. The optional rhytmic variations (trebles) follow in the next post.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 05/29/2012:  15:39:17

The following tab shows the optional trebles in The Lilting Banshee. [Disclaimer: the 5-string banjo tab has been made automatically by TablEdit, I do not claim it is the ideal way. I just thought it is better to show it than not.]

The first measure shows the substitution of the measure 1 and/or 5 of the original tab. You can see the conventional second-note trebles.

The second measure shows the conventional second-note treble for original measures 3, 7, 11, or 15. The third measure shows the other option for these measures: the lead-in treble, subject of this thread.

The fourth measure shows the conventional second-note treble for original measure 9. And the fifth measure shows the other option - the lead-in treble.

(The sixth measure has been intentionally left blank.)

Finally, the last line shows three options for the original measure 13: the conventional first-note treble, the conventional second-note treble, and the lead-in treble. (In the last measure, the second note might be omitted, with just the quarter note and two 16th notes in the first half of the measure.)

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 05/29/2012 15:45:19

captbanjo - Posted - 05/29/2012:  15:52:22

Mirek, I was not focusing in on these as for Irish music I play a fingerstyle tenor tuned GDAE. But as I look at it, I was working on this very concept today for Maid Behind the Bar. Specifically, the F sharp to two A notes that open the tune. I was thinking that maybe it wasn't common for Irish players to play a treble here but I see that you do that, at least occasionally.

I do try to isolate the little stuff that can trip me up, such as a triplet (or treble) from open A to B to C. Or descending in reverse.

Wayne

Mirek Patek - Posted - 06/01/2012:  10:50:18

Back in 2/2 (or 4/4) rhythm, here is the example of the added trebles (well, "triplets") in the McLeod's Farewell reel - see the version at thesession.org/tunes/display/518 where it is called The Wedding reel as [mis]labelled by Lunasa. Video of Lunasa is e.g. at youtube.com/watch?v=PnYG5bBeq7E (Lunasa does not play the trebles in below discussed place but it does not mean you cannot put them there).



Below is the tab for my DGdg tenor banjo and for Irish tenor banjo in low GDae tuning. The first two measures show the original measures 3-4 of part B. You can see/hear the bluegrass three-finger-roll kind of syncopation, however I am playing it by TITI or TMTI fingering in order to stress the beats by my thumb.



The second two measures show the conventional trebles starting on the beat and played by TIM.



The third pair of measures shows the off-beat treble ending on the beat (the subject of this thread) - I play it by IMT. Note that in this case I do not play the d note following the treble by M, but by I.



Finally, the last two measures show one example of possible combination of the off-beat and on-beat treble in a row.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/04/2012:  15:27:37

I tried to chain the three different positions of 16th notes in the 6/8 rhythm one after another and voila, the result is the superimposed 4/4 rhythm over 6/8. Here is the example of simple motive on one (whatever) string, of course one can play any other motive which is four quarter notes long.

The first measure is the "first-note treble", the second measure is the "second-note treble", the third measure ends with the off-beat treble leading to the next beat (the subject of this thread) and the fourth measure contains just three notes played with TMI right-hand fingering as the melody of 4---2 is descending.  

|0-0-2---4--|2---0-0-2--|4---2---0-0|2---4---2--|
 |_| |   |   |   |_| |   |   |   |_| |   |   |
 T I M   I   T   T I M   T   T   I M T   M   I

And here is the same motive played in the 4/4 rhythm - with completely different right hand fingering.

|0-0-2---4---2--|0-0-2---4---2--|0-0-2---4---2--|
 |_| |   |   |   |_| |   |   |   |_| |   |   |
 T I M   T   I   T I M   T   I   T I M   T   I

Mirek Patek - Posted - 07/25/2012:  06:55:54

While the style (and the thread title) is based on "single string" picking, in fact one of the hurdles is to be able to play the lines which jump to different string with equal fluency. Here is the exercise which shows the conventional treble and the lead-in treble (the subject of this thread) in one motive.

Here is the basic motive on my DGdg tenor banjo.

g---|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|-
d---|0---2---0----------------------|0---2---0----------------------|-
G---|------------4---2-------2------|------------4---0-------0------|-
D---|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|-
     |___|___|___|   |       |       |___|___|___|   |       |
     T   I   T   I   T       T       T   I   T   I   T       T

Here is the same motive found on 5-string banjo. Of course you can play different motives too.

D---|0---2---0----------------------|0---2---0----------------------|-
B---|------------0------------------|------------0------------------|-
G---|----------------2-------2------|----------------0-------0------|-
D---|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|-
g---|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|-
     |___|___|___|   |       |       |___|___|___|   |       |
     T   I   T   I   T       T       T   I   T   I   T       T

Here is the conventional treble played by TIM fingering, shown on two strings only.

----|0---2---0----------------------|0---2---0----------------------|-
----|------------4---2-2-2---2------|------------4---0-0-0---0------|-
     |___|___|___|   |=|_|   |       |___|___|___|   |=|_|   |
     T   I   T   I   T I M   T       T   I   T   I   T I M   T

And here is added the lead-in treble played by IMT fingering.

-0-0|0---2---0-------------------0-0|0---2---0----------------------|-
----|------------4---2-2-2---2------|------------4---0-0-0---0------|-
 |=| |___|___|___|   |=|_|___|___|=| |___|___|___|   |=|_|   |
 I M T   I   T   I   T I M   T   I M T   I   T   I   T I M   T

Mirek

Mirek Patek - Posted - 08/28/2012:  06:36:35

Here are two-measure repeating patterns which combine the conventional trebles and the lead-in trebles in 6/8 rhythm. I practice them on hard surface when I am driving my car.

Two measures of basic 6/8 rhythm in forward rolls

----|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...


(Two measures of basic 6/8 rhythm in backward rolls)

----|T---M---I---T---M---I--|T---M---I---T---M---I--|T...


Conventional second-note treble

----|T---T-I-M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...


Plus lead-in treble (note the thumbstroke before the lead-in treble)

-I-M|T---T-I-M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---T---I-M|T...


Conventional first note treble

----|T-I-M---I---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T-I-M...


Plus lead-in treble - resulting into the chain of 16th notes

-I-M|T-I-M---I---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---T---I-M|T-I-M...

Mirek Patek - Posted - 08/28/2012:  07:08:03

I need the middle [normal] parts of the examples in my previous post for consolidating the rhythm. If I try to chain the trebles in more dense fashion, here is the result - quite challenging in the time being.

The first line is just the standard 6/8 rhythm in forward rolls (serving as kind of metronome here). The second line shows the combination of lead-in treble and second-note treble. The third line shows the combination of lead-in treble and first-note treble, resulting in the "overcaffeinated" chain of 16th notes.

The purpose of these rhythmic exercises is to prepare my right hand fingers for inserting the treble (conventional, lead-in or even combined) on the fly so they become really improvised.

----|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T

-I-M|T---T-I-M---T---T---I-M|T---T-I-M---T---T---I-M|T---T-I-M---T---T---I-M|T---T-I-M---T---T---I-M|T

-I-M|T-I-M---I---T---T---I-M|T-I-M---I---T---T---I-M|T-I-M---I---T---T---I-M|T-I-M---I---T---T---I-M|T

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 08/28/2012 07:09:45

Mirek Patek - Posted - 08/30/2012:  08:42:17

On the way back from my business trip my car heard these repeated exercises in 6/8 rhythm with my fingerpicks:

basic 6/8 rhythm
|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...

plus second-note treble
|T---T-I-M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...

followed by first-note treble
|T---T-I-M---T-I-M---I--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...

plus lead-in treble into the next measure
|T---T-I-M---T-I-M---I-M|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...

repeating without interruption by basic rhythm
|T---T-I-M---T-I-M---I-M|T---T-I-M---T-I-M---I-M|T...

or with chain of 16th notes
|T---T-I-M---T-I-M---I-M|T-I-M---I-M-T---T-I-M--|T...

repeated chains of 16th notes
|T-I-M---I-M-T-I-M---I-M|T-I-M---I-M-T-I-M---I-M|T-I-M

basic 6/8 rhythm
|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T...

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 08/30/2012 08:52:10

Mirek Patek - Posted - 08/31/2012:  01:15:46

If one of the rhythmic exercises shown above (actually, the 5th line of previous post) is shifted by half a measure, the result is this one.

The measure consists of the first-note TIM treble, lead-in IMT treble to next half of the measure, and the second-note TIM treble (at the second half of the measure).

The trebles are so evenly distributed, that one might even try the momentarily change to 3/4 rhythm (this trick is sometimes used in 6/8 rhythm by changing the emphasises).

In that case, all three trebles will be the conventional ones played by TIM.

Then, of course, one has to return safely into 6/8 rhythm.

I have underlined the notes on the beats, to differentiate the 6/8 rhythm (played by TIMTIM) and 3/4 rhythm (played by TITITI - or by some M instead of I).

6/8 rhythm
|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|

with trebles
|T-I-M---I-M-T---T-I-M--|T-I-M---I-M-T---T-I-M--|

3/4 rhythm
|T---I---T---I---T---I--|T---I---T---I---T---I--|

with trebles
|T-I-M---T-I-M---T-I-M--|T-I-M---T-I-M---T-I-M--|

back to 6/8 rhythm
|T---I---M---T---I---M--|T---I---M---T---I---M--|

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 08/31/2012 01:21:12

Mirek Patek - Posted - 09/10/2012:  12:01:23

I have finally searched how the drummer would call what I describe as lead-in treble. The answer is simple: it is the basic rudiment called Drag or Ruff.

See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28...rudiments

Here is the picture borrowed from Wikipedia:

Of course I play it (in three finger style) as IMT IMT.

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 09/10/2012 12:02:04

Mirek Patek - Posted - 10/28/2012:  12:41:34

Another tune for practicing the lead-in and conventional trebles (especially when jumping from one string to the other one) is the reel Toss the Feather (Em version). I play the version from the Foinn Seisiun Comhaltas Book 1 (page 13). In the picture below there are three times the same first four bars of this tune. Even if your notes are in different place of your fretboard, you may look at the rhythm of these three lines.

First line is with the conventional trebles, notated as 16th notes. The right hand fingering of this kind of treble is consistently TIM.

I have added also the info concerning my left hand, even if for most of you it will not be useful due to the difference in the tuning. I place at the very beginning the tip of my index finger over two strings (3rd and 4th) at the 2nd fret, in order to ease the second measure, where only the ring finger alternates between the 4th frets of neighbour strings. At the end of the third measure the tip of my left index finger is lifted and it is placed on the 2nd string for the first half of the fourth measure - yes it stays there while the 5th and 4th frets are played by my little and ring fingers (and the ring fingers is placed together with the little finger for the economy of motion). Then, after the open 2nd string in the second half of the fourth measure, the 4th fret of the 3rd string is played by my ring finger, but in the same time the index finger tip barre is placed at the 2nd fret of the 3rd-4th strings again.

Back to the right hand rhythm - the second line shows the lead-in trebles, played by IMT fingering. I have added this treble also to the second measure. The lead-in treble in the third measure is more difficult for me as the IM fingers jump to the thicker string closer to the wrist.

Finally the third line shows the combination of lead-in and conventional trebles condensed in single ornament. Note the difference of the trebles in the first and third measures, where the conventional treble contains three the same notes, versus the second measure with the treble containing the pair of the notes and the different one (because the original melody has two different 8th notes).

mikey5string - Posted - 10/28/2012:  14:34:38

interesting concept. I have a hard time executing the "lead in" triplets as it doesnt sound quite "right" in irish tunes. The triplet becomes embellished by the quarter note whereas in irish trad, triplets are usually used to embellish quarter notes. It is hard for me to get the rhythm, the lead in triplets make me hear a weird jig like thing going on.

It is a good workout though. I find myself having to use IMI triplets which I try to avoid normally

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/12/2012:  00:55:16

If I should define the rules when I spontaneously use the conventional treble and when the lead-in one, it would be the following:

1) If there is pair of the same 8th notes and the first one is on the beat, then the conventional treble is used. (See the examples A-D below.)

2) If there is pair of the same 8th notes and the second one is on the beat, then the lead-in treble (to the second note) is used. (See the examples E-H below.)

3) In case of quarter notes, there are two options. Either the quarter note can be changed to the conventional treble, or one may use the space created by the quarter note, and put there the lead-in treble into the next note. (Not shown in the examples.)

Here are the examples where the beats are emphasized in bold:

A) The second 8th note equals to the first one
|-0-----0-----2-----x-----
  |_____|     |_____|
  T     I     T

B) The first 8th note is changed to two 16th notes
|-0--0--0-----2-----x-----
  |==|__|     |_____|
  T  I  M     T

C) Example A in triplet feel
|-0---x---0---2---x---x---
  |___|___|   |___|___|
      3           3
  T       I   T

D) Example B in triplet feel => conventional triplet in place of two 8th notes
|-0---0---0---2---x---x---
  |___|___|   |___|___|
      3           3
  T   I   M   T


E) The second 8th note equals to the third one
|-0-----2-----2-----x-----
  |_____|     |_____|
  T     I     T

F) The second 8th note changed to two 16th notes, leading into the (original) third note
|-0-----2--2--2-----x-----
  |_____|==|  |_____|
  T     I  M  T

G) Example E in triplet feel
|-0---x---2---2---x---x---
  |___|___|   |___|___|
      3           3
  T       I   T

H) Example F in triplet feel. Lead-in treble is quicker than the conventional one in the Example D.
|-0---x---2-2-2---x---x---
  |___|___|=| |___|___|
      3           3
  T       I M T

Of course these three rules do not cover all cases, but they are something to start with.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/12/2013:  01:28:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mirek Patek in 4/15/2012 4:01 PM

Here is the overview of various trebles (or triplets, if you prefer this word - note that I do not use the differentiation used in Enda Scahill's Irish bano tutors, i.e. "trebles contain the same notes, triplets contain different notes") in the first measure of the tune The Maid Behind the Bar thesession.org/tunes/display/64 .

The first measure contains the melody only - you can see that the 2nd and 3rd notes are the same. The second measure shows the fretting hand articulation - the cut performed by ring finger from the 4th fret; see my article published at Mel Bay Banjo Sessions [edited].

The third measure shows the treble starting at the 1st note and played by TIM, the fourth measure shows the off-beat treble ending at the [original] 3rd note and played by IMT. Take care for differentiating these two rhythms.

The fifth measure shows the treble starting at the [original] 3rd note and played by TIM.

The sixth measure is kind of combination of the third and fifth one. Finally the seventh measure is the combination of the fourth and fifth one. Again, differentiate these two rhythms.

---

In Tom Hanway's thread banjohangout.org/topic/234645/5 there is his tab with different versions of first four measures of The Maid Behind the Bar (played on the 5-string banjo). The sixth line (Example 6: Tom Hanway Ornamented Version) contains the grace note leading into the fourth beat of the first measure. He plays it with the left-hand cut (quick pull-off)  - observe the similarity and difference versus the fingerpicked lead-in treble (the subject of this thread).

Tom Hanway's left-hand cut (quick pull-off)

|-------------------------------|-
|-------------------------------|-
|----2---2-2-4---2--------------|-
|4-------------------4---42--0--|-
|-------------------------------|-
 |___|   |_|_|   |___|___|___|
 T   I   T I M   T   I   TP  I
           3

Fingerpicked lead-in IMT treble

|-------------------------------|-
|-------------------------------|-
|----2---2-2-4---2--------------|-
|4-------------------4-4-2---0--|-
|-------------------------------|-
 |___|   |_|_|   |___|=| |___|
 T   I   T I M   T   I M T   I
           3

Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/12/2013 01:43:41