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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/199618
Barnet in SoCal - Posted - 02/14/2011: 14:43:13
I'm very interested in the single mic setup situation, and it appears that with Tech Talk launching it's a popular subject.
I've never played in a single mic setup before. I have to say that I haven't heard enough bands playing live with this setup to judge clearly what I find for myself about the results. My concern is that the sound might often be too 'airy' or distant-sounding over the PA system, as opposed to the close-mic sound which, when dialed in properly, can sound great. Of course any type of sound system can and will sound terrible if not set up properly. (I just heard a local band this weekend that used pickups in all their instruments... yuck x 1000!)
I'll also say that some of the choreography around the mic that I've seen on stage and in videos is a bit distracting. And yet I like the idea of band members standing and working close to each other, and I really like the idea of needing so much less equipment, and especially of not using monitors ("Hey, hey, willya turn up the banjo please! )
Seems like the topic of using a single mic setup has a trend-type feel to it, or a kind of mythology of its being more pure, or more real, or less artificial, or something. But the bottom line is that I just don't know, and I'd love to hear all sorts of opinions on the subject. I've recently joined a band and we're at the point of starting to discuss things like this. The mandolin player advocates for single mic, the guitar player for multiple mics, the fiddle and bass player don't care, and the banjo player -- yours truly -- stands there and drools, like always, as the discussion proceeds.
So whatcha'll think?
Thanks,
Barnet (in SoCal)
Mark Johnson - Posted - 02/14/2011: 15:05:23
My thoughts are the boring "it depends".
Tight bands who play tastefully and dynamically, heck yes. It allows you to play close, play together, and capture the amazing things that can happen that way.
Less seasoned bands who can't balance internally, heck no. I see a lot of bands with a fancy guitar player who plays fast, but near silent, and a banjo player who is trying to be heard on Mars. Put those guys in front of individual mics and let the soundman do his best to help.
Agree on pickups. I'm in a band where I'm the last man standing with an SM57 in front of him. The rest of the guys are so pleased with how loud they're getting, overlooking the fact that they sound like geese dying terrible deaths.
banjerman - Posted - 02/14/2011: 15:34:15
We decided we wanted to use an single one after some bad experiences with mixing/ sound engineers. It does require more playing finesse than a dedicated mic set up and you have to remember where to be on a given song. The AT4050 we use is hot hot hot but it can be eq'ed to a pleasant level. It picks up back up playing real well. The best thing...no sound man to screw it all up. He just leaves it alone except to eq out any feedback. Thats worth every dime IMO. We get rock and roll sound men who are clueless as to our sound. Clueless and arrogant to boot!
Wally
gordon sadler - Posted - 02/14/2011: 16:17:00
Our band (just local boys having fun) has used a single mic for about 5 years. What I like about it is that there is no stage shock going from the living room (practice venue) to the stage. We have learned to moderate our instrument volumes at home to try and be as well balanced as possible and do the same when we get on stage. I feel more comfortable when the sound I hear on stage is the same as it is when practicing at home instead of being at the mercy of a sound man who may or may not be experienced at handling 8-10 mics at a time, and having the band members spread way across the stage so that the the on stage sound is completely different than what it sounds like at home.
hunky - Posted - 02/14/2011: 17:21:01
I think the closeness of performers and the choreography necessary when using a single mike is much much better for the audience regarding a dynamic performance. It is a pet peeve of mine (I realize we're all different) when I see performers all standing several arm lengths away from each other in a straight line - looks like they aren't part of a group or that they don't like each other very much - and it is static and, in my book, boring.
So that's my preference. We play with one but aren't that dynamic - bass player has his own mike of course and mandolin player likes to stand off with his own - but would prefer he played with us.
Downsides I've observed is that sometimes performers playing to the side of the mike have their backs to one side of audience or other. It is difficult to control how you're sounding (the mix) unless good with monitors, and they can feed back. But these are more amateur issues than anything.
O.D. - Posted - 02/15/2011: 05:31:46
I think the 1 mic thing is pretty cool and adds visual to the audio for an entertaining show.
It find it works well as long as it is a group effort.
1 hot shot player that likes to hog the mic and its all over.
Why is it that there always seems to be 1 person that thinks they need to heard more than everyone else?
Regards, O.D.
jacov - Posted - 02/15/2011: 07:23:09
I've tryed it a few times and loved it. but I have a problem with the guitar player wanting to be hooked with PL and with a drummer that I could do with out ,but again - guitar player wants him...
I uploaded a video of one of our trials with one mik. it sounds great to my taste. (banjo player not a genius but has a lot of good will...)
youtube.com/watch?v=IGHUp7UM8aM
ahsn36gp - Posted - 02/15/2011: 07:32:03
Our band has been using the single mic for 14 years however when we added a fiddle player it got a little crowded.
We have added a second mic that the mandolin and fiddle share, the guitar and banjo share a mic and we stick an SM58 in the tailpiece of the bass. All our vocals (3 and 4 part) use the guitar / banjo mic. The mics are placed pretty close together so we still have to choreograph our movements. If we are limited on space, like in small churches, we just use one mic.
I suggest any band that is switching to the single mic set up practice with your PA set up and record your rehearsals. I have a Zoom that I use, You can then see where you are dynamically and where you may need to make adjustments. When you get it right you'll never have to worry about sound men that don't know bluegrass and you will sound consistent everywhere you play.
Barnet in SoCal - Posted - 02/16/2011: 15:32:41
Sorry it took me a few days to say 'thanks!' to everyone who replied. It will be interesting to see what we end up doing. I can tell that there's a lot of work involved with learning how to use the mic, but it seems very related to the work it takes to play well together as a band. Each member must be aware of what everyone else is doing in addition to monitoring their own playing. That can only be a good thing. I suppose once you find the 'sweet spots' for mic levels, mic placement, player placement and shifting dynamics of playing it can be pretty great sounding. OTOH, using several mics and just moving back a little for backup playing and up to the mic for playing a break is pretty simple. OTOOH, there's all that equipment to deal with, and I agree completely and strongly with hunky that seeing band members so spread out across the stage and far from each other is somehow disconcerting and unappealing.
And I also agree with beenjammin that jacov's video is fantastic! Jacov, you are really working up your own style with bits of Scruggs and additional strumming patterns, and it fits the music great. You and the band are some pretty rockin' klezmorim. Actually, would you call your music klezmer or something else? Suffice it to say I've never hear five string banjo in an Ashkenazic Jewish musical setting before, and I like it. I also notice you like Andy Statman, still one of the greatest mandolinists ever, both bluegrass and jazz, as well as one of the greatest klezmer clarinet players ever as well. That guy can do anything, it seems, and I hear he now plays music that mixes all three genres.
Barnet
mrbook - Posted - 02/16/2011: 18:48:03
I've been using a single mic in bands for 12-14 years, ever sicne I saw the Del McCoury Band and others using it, and realized it would solve our problems. We never had our own soundman, so after setting all the levels, we always ran into the situation where one person thought he wasn't heard well enough, and would turn his mic up when no one was looking. The others would turn up to compensate - people only turn UP to balance, never down - and the sound was usually a mess. I bought an AT 4033 (we use that or an AKG C3000); everyone resisted at first, but we ended up at a gig with other bands where the sound system had only one working mic, and once we were forced to do it, everyone went along willingly.
You hear the people you are playing with better, and it makes everyone aware of their part. A couple members were stiff at first, stuck in one spot as before, but being shorter than the rest of the band I found I could gently bump people from behind to move them forward, or cut in front when it was time to move back. After a short time, no one wanted to go back to multiple mics, and the few times we had to do it - every now and then you run into a sound man who says it can't be done and won't try - everyone felt it wasn't as much fun. We have played to groups as small as a half dozen people (we always like more in the audience than on stage) to 6-8,000 and it has been pretty much the same.
It works best when everyone wants to play as a band - you can have a problem when you have a member who thinks everyone else is backing him up. We don't always hear how it sounds to the audience, and I think the real trick is to realize that you have to do your part and the mic will pick it up. We have used on mic for up to seven people, and audiences often say that they didn't think you could get so much music through one mic. A couple times we have opened for touring bands who asked to use our mic for their show.
Watch what you say between songs - the mic picks up sounds even a few feet away, and you might hear things come out of the speaker you didn't want the audience to hear. We have had a couple funny moments, but nothing bad. I've played in a few bands since the first one, and most adapt to the single mic quite readily. Everyone likes being able to move a bit, rather than being locked in one place in front of their own mic.
eagleisland - Posted - 02/16/2011: 19:49:55
Let us all remember that the whole reason for the single mic setup is tradition. When this music was created, sound reinforcement systems weren't powerful and the mic was the most expensive piece of equipment the band carried - and that includes the instruments and the sidemen. I have no doubt that if Bill Monroe had had access to spot hypercardioid condensers and cheap mixers, he would have used them.
Which is a little like saying that if the British Navy had had access to fiberglass trees, the ships would have been rather different.
Personally, I prefer spot mics for each voice and instrument. The sound is more easily controlled. Which said, I suspect my band is about to go back to a modified single-mic setup purely due to economics. We're losing a member, and he owns a lot of the gear.
Edited by - eagleisland on 02/16/2011 19:50:44
jacov - Posted - 02/17/2011: 08:38:51
Thanks everybody. I'm still experimenting because it seems I'm the only one here who even knows about single mic...
about this 'style' developing its realy almost like a miracle. If you would see my first posts about suggestions on how to play minor songs and so. and now I have quite a few scales I'm playing easily. its realy wonderfull. I didnt dare to dream I'll be able to play our traditional music with 'scruggic' touches like I do now. and I realy like bluegrass and enjoy it so much
Edited by - jacov on 02/17/2011 08:45:26
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