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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: compression and its settings


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/199165

doug.knecht - Posted - 02/09/2011:  20:12:49


Compression can be a great tool, or it can be overused. In the best case scenario, compression softens the hot signals in the end. You just don't want to squash the hot signals, cause this will probably squash the lighter ones too.

Banjo doesn't need much compression. You can either compress as you are recording, or use plugins in your recording software (this is for all vocals and instruments). Sometimes people do both. I do both, and I'll explain some settings for banjo and guitar, and then for vocals.

Banjo Compression
The knobs on the gear compressor on my set up are set for 2:1 ratio, about 15ms on attack, and 150ms on release. I adjust the threshold so that no more than 1 or 2 dB of gain reduction occurs.

The ratio is a formula or proportion for how many dB are reduced per db input. Normally, guitar, banjo, and mandolin have lower ratios.

The attack is how quickly the signal gets reduced. The release is how long the signal is reduced.

Gain reduction is how much signal is decreased, in dB as a result of using the settings.

Vocal Compression
Different animal. Normally this is where I use both the gear compressor and the plug in compressor. I use 6:1 ratio, 5ms attack, and 500ms release. The threshold I set so no more than 3dB of gain reduction occurs.
Then in the DAW software program, I usually use two compressors chained together for vocals. The first one is set with a quick attack and quick release, set to reduce the gain about 3dB on the hottest signal. Then I add the second compressor to be a slow attack and slow release, and only allow 1dB of reduction.

I was lucky enough to spend time with a ProTools genius in southern Illinois. He does remixes and masters for projects in Nashville. Out of all that I learned, which most was the mechanics of setting up Pro Tools mixers correctly, compression was the big issue.

I hope this helps with anyone working with compression.

Here's a sample of a vocal lead with and without compression. There isn't a lot of difference, infact there isn't supposed to be. But see if you can hear some difference.



Doug


Edited by - doug.knecht on 02/09/2011 20:56:07

buckskin - Posted - 02/10/2011:  05:43:36


Yes, the compression tightens up the recording a little more. Almost like taking out a little sustain.

pearcemusic - Posted - 02/10/2011:  06:27:23


guitarists use compression as a effect to add sustain ....

but ... my experience in mixing has been that everything is about the creative use of EQ and compression.
opinions are as varied as there are mixers ...

I try to use compression settings to smooth things out .... the ear naturally compresses but I've found that the use of small amounts of compression on tracks, busses-groups, and master output will make a mix easier to listen to ... a better experience ...

I love the new multi band frequency dependent compressors like the C4 from Waves ....

... and I love to use compression to remove "peakyness" from a recorded track

doug.knecht - Posted - 02/10/2011:  06:38:32


quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic

guitarists use compression as a effect to add sustain ....

but ... my experience in mixing has been that everything is about the creative use of EQ and compression.
opinions are as varied as there are mixers ...

I try to use compression settings to smooth things out .... the ear naturally compresses but I've found that the use of small amounts of compression on tracks, busses-groups, and master output will make a mix easier to listen to ... a better experience ...

I love the new multi band frequency dependent compressors like the C4 from Waves ....

... and I love to use compression to remove "peakyness" from a recorded track



Ya! I just got the Waves C6, and it's really a tool you can use to eliminate any further eq, unless you really want to hone in on something. I've never used compression on groups. I'm not that well educated as I've never learned that technique yet. I'll have to create some groups on the mixer!

tom elder - Posted - 02/10/2011:  06:56:48


For acoustic music i propose invisible signal processing is what we are all looking for.Going from magnetic tape to digital was such a sound quality jump i have been doing all my home mixing dry since and resting on my elementary laurels.I would not dare to claim any expert opinion but i have 3 o4r books i have tried to grasp things from.I use to have a stomp box compressor i fooled with.As i tend to do, i turned it up too much,beyond it's more mature usefulness.In this range it would give the banjo a rubber band sound not unlike Lamar Greers.Theorywise compression smoothes and condenses the entire signal so you can raise the complete level without distortion.Playing with the faders and using the ears is the main way i gain knowledge.I recall that after a session using compression with the phones on my ears complained a little.The vocals you compressed sound better Doug,i may have to get another one.Great topics you have started.Tom

Pepper Laing - Posted - 02/10/2011:  08:03:50


Keep the info coming, I always wanna learn more about how to record better realistic acoustic stuff. I tried asking in some threads wahile back but didn`t get much in way of responses, this is great! What is Waves C6?

maddogonbanjo - Posted - 02/10/2011:  08:18:52


I thought the last time we were in the studio the engineer said that it's better not to use compression as it takes away from the quality of the sound. If the mike signal level is correct and you stay the same distance from the mike you get a better acoustic product when recording without it. Does this make sense?


Edited by - maddogonbanjo on 02/10/2011 08:19:20

Pepper Laing - Posted - 02/10/2011:  09:00:48


I think that does make sense, the goal is to not over use or do not use if not needed, but alot of variables apply and lot`s of time compression is needed to level/smooth things out, especially in a smaller home studio. An absolute pro recording tech can do wonders with his high end equipment but for budget minded home recording these tools and tips are good. Less is more.

pearcemusic - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:42:43


quote:
Originally posted by maddogonbanjo

I thought the last time we were in the studio the engineer said that it's better not to use compression as it takes away from the quality of the sound. If the mike signal level is correct and you stay the same distance from the mike you get a better acoustic product when recording without it. Does this make sense?



compression is just another tool in the hands of an engineer. "transparent" compressors are sought after because you don't really want to hear "pumping" caused by a compressor.

other than that compression is great and does not degrade the audio quality if you use a good one.

I think it all comes down to what you are trying to produce ...
if you want a realistic recording of a jazz ensemble, or chamber quartet, or bluegrass band, then mic placement and tracking purity go a long way.
But .. if you are making any type of tracked "pop" project ... even bluegrass (AKUS for example) then it is highly likely that you will be using some type of compression and limiting somewhere in the signal flow. NOT mandatory .. but likely.

pearcemusic - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:47:57


quote:
Originally posted by doug.knecht

quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic

guitarists use compression as a effect to add sustain ....

but ... my experience in mixing has been that everything is about the creative use of EQ and compression.
opinions are as varied as there are mixers ...

I try to use compression settings to smooth things out .... the ear naturally compresses but I've found that the use of small amounts of compression on tracks, busses-groups, and master output will make a mix easier to listen to ... a better experience ...

I love the new multi band frequency dependent compressors like the C4 from Waves ....

... and I love to use compression to remove "peakyness" from a recorded track



Ya! I just got the Waves C6, and it's really a tool you can use to eliminate any further eq, unless you really want to hone in on something. I've never used compression on groups. I'm not that well educated as I've never learned that technique yet. I'll have to create some groups on the mixer!




yeah Doug ... the C6 is awesome .... you are right .. i use it as an EQ and compressor

Pepper .. it is a compressor plug in for protools (and other things) that "looks ahead" (rather than responding to an incoming analog signal) and intelligently compresses, making it very transparent. It also has "bands" of frequencies that you can compress or EQ ... leaving some frequency ranges un-compressed and others compressed.

for example, you might find that the upright bass "woofs" on a few notes in the mix, but when you EQ it thins out the overall sound too much. The C6 will grab those "woofy" sounds and compress them away without messing with the rest of the sound. Kind of like a bass "de-woofer"

Pepper Laing - Posted - 02/10/2011:  12:45:59


cool I`ll have to look into that.

Paul Roberts - Posted - 02/14/2011:  14:00:28


Thanks for the tips and insight, Doug.

It took me quite a while to wrap my mind around the concept of compression and how to use it (seems pretty straight-forward now). For me, controlling the dynamic range a necessary technique. Some tones just jump out much stronger than others. In this case, we're playing to the mic and how it's interpreting the levels that are going into it.

PauL banjocrazy.com/

bournio - Posted - 02/14/2011:  15:43:55


quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic


compression is just another tool in the hands of an engineer. "transparent" compressors are sought after because you don't really want to hear "pumping" caused by a compressor.



Pumping can be desirable, in dance music for example it's where a lot of the rhythmic energy comes from, When i have free time after finishing this year at uni I want to experiment with applying different genres production techniques to other genres to see how it works.

One of Michael Jackson's engineers didn't believe in the use of compressors, he just "rode" the faders, so altering the volume as it was being mixed. I can't remember what album it is, but it does show. it's a very loud, clear mix! This is easier in a DAW environment as you can see the amplitude waveform and draw automation to do the compressors job.

For vocals I like to use multiple compressors, achieving as little as 1dB GR on each. I feel this gives a better sounding result than using 1 compressor with a lot of GR.

MrNatch3L - Posted - 02/15/2011:  00:50:30


I didn't understand audio compression very well for a long time. This article helped me get a grip on the basics:
tvtechnology.com/article/11820

doug.knecht - Posted - 02/15/2011:  02:46:17


Also to consider air play, even though they have their own compressors in the radio studio, you want some kind of control over the master peaks. I'm still a fan of less compression (no more than 3 dB of GR) and that is pretty invisible. And keep in mind all compressors are not created equal. Some "pump" at 2 db of GR, some don't pump at even 6 dB of GR. The more decibals you can reduce before you hear the pumping is my favorite in bluegrass.

bournio - Posted - 02/15/2011:  03:10:12


Doug, Pumping tends to come from setting the release time wrong, so the compressor stops working before the sound has finished, which causes an increase in gain.

Auto mode can helpor you can try tweaking the release time to get it perfect.

mountainbanjer - Posted - 02/16/2011:  06:28:49


I tend to use light compression (2:1 or 2.5:1) on most acoustic instruments - mandolin, guitar, and banjo. Same with voices, although I may go up to 4:1 on vocals sometimes. For bass, I'll start at about 4:1 and go up from there, no higher than about 8:1. These settings may not work in every instance, so I don't use them by default. The upright bass players I've recorded have all had a punchy, almost electric sound on their own, so more compression didn't hurt. If they played a more sustained, "open" style of bass, I'd probably use a lot less compression (as well as more mics to capture the ambiance). I don't use compression while tracking (recording). I add it to the tracks during mixing. That way, I have the luxury of adjusting it later and it's not permanently printed on the original recorded tracks.

For what I do, I don't like the pump sound of compression. If it's noticeable, then it's too much. For the music I record, compression should enhance the natural properties of the instrument and performance - it shouldn't add it's own sound into the mix.

I will use compression when mastering. I start out with light compression (2:1) and might move up to 4:1. But I try to stay under 4:1 - if I go that high it's usually because the mix is quieter. If the mix is hot, light compression seems to work best. Higher compression pushes it toward the pumping sound. If that starts to happen, I cut it back. If I still can't get a hot master without the pumping sound, I start tweaking the threshold, attack, and release (more than usual).

Usually I'm able to get an appropriate level fairly quickly, although I may have to watch certain parts of songs that don't respond to the compression right. Sometimes the rest of the song will sound great as I'm listening, and then one particular break will be slightly distorted. When this happens, I cut back again (unless it lowers the master volume noticeably). If that doesn't work, I go back to tweaking the settings (threshold, etc).

I'm no expert at compression; I just know what has worked for me in a lot of various situations. But for someone with very little experience or reluctance with using compression, I'd recommend erring on the side of caution. If you're not comfortable using it, you can avoid it - or just use light compression at the default settings. If that doesn't sound good, don't use it. Proper mic placement, eq, and decent recording/playback volume ("full" signal but not clipping) can get you a really good mix. Compression is just a little bit of icing on the cake, but it's not the biggest factor (unless you overdo it and get a noticeably bad result - then it's a big factor in the wrong way and should just be taken out).

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