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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/198992
john leary - Posted - 02/08/2011: 06:18:46
Hi Scruggs pickers! I know this is'nt exactly Scruggs style related, but I play Scruggs style banjo, so I thought you guys would be the best to ask this question to.
I'm in a 5 piece band and we use a cheap single mic which picks up the noise of the audience, even, with an even cheaper isolation panel in front of it.
We're wanting to up-grade to a better mic (about £150-£250) that won't pick up the audience and does'nt need an isolation panel.
Any ideas???
John.
joemac - Posted - 02/08/2011: 06:32:10
you want to get a condenser mike running off Phantom power. One that has its pick up cone of sound directed firmly at the instruments only and dies pretty soon after that. you can see the type of conal sound on offer with each mike, its rather like a candle flame, imagine the mike as the candle and the flame as the pick up area and you will see what i mean, some mikes have fat cones of sound and some are more direct.
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 02/08/2011: 06:52:30
A shure Sm 57 is a good choice fro an instrument mike, but in genreal microphones are not designed to pick up a group of instruments. Anything that would pick up a lot of sounds would also be likely to cause feedback.
Edited by - DantheBanjoMan on 02/08/2011 06:54:25
jfb - Posted - 02/08/2011: 07:22:26
If you would like to hear what one Sure SM-57 sounds like in the middle of a group, take a listen to the Cushman jam on my home page..Take care
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/08/2011: 07:27:07
Though I'm no sound expert, I've played a fair bit in a single-mic setting. I've used phantom-powered condensers, as Joemac notes above. Get something with a cardioid pattern to minimize sounds from the audience side. You need to run the mic hot enough to pick up sounds from several feet away, which means you can't use monitors, because of the risk of feedback. I've done this successfully with an inexpensive, small-diaphragm Audio-Technica Pro 37R, though larger-diaphragm mics work better (and look cooler).
It works better in some situations than in others. It's best when the audience isn't too close, and when there's no hard, reflective surface immediately behind the band.
youtube.com/user/kcollinsmd#p/...OQaCLrzJU
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 02/08/2011 07:29:16
arnie fleischer - Posted - 02/08/2011: 07:45:52
I've been using the Audio-Technica AT 4033, a cardioid condenser mic that requires phantom power, both as a solo performer and with a band, and it's worked well, pretty much as Ira describes. It retails in the U.S. for around $400.
banjoholic - Posted - 02/08/2011: 08:19:20
Another vote for either the Audio-Technica AT 4033 or the AT 4040 - one of the best values around and great for single mic setups.
Josh
oldtimejam.com
bournio - Posted - 02/08/2011: 09:10:07
I've got to agree with Banjoholic. Go for one of the AT 40xx's.
If you're on ebay and spot a cheaper AKG C414. Go for them. They're the metaphorical canine's genitalia.
eagleisland - Posted - 02/08/2011: 09:34:57
For a single mic setup, you want a cardioid pattern large diaphragm mic, as Ira suggests.
Some large diaphragm mics have optional setting switches that and produce various pickup patterns. My band uses an AKG Perception with such a switch - and one night we were getting huge crowd noise in the mix. I checked the mic and realized that during setup the switch had been inadvertently taken out of cardioid - and this mic can handle an all-around or figure 8 pattern in addition to the cardioid. (a cardioid pattern picks up sound from behind and the sides of the mic - and a tiny amount from in front, but only a tetch).
You might check to see if your problem isn't as simple as that.
bumblecrow - Posted - 02/08/2011: 11:36:23
My band recently purchased a Rode NT-2A for this purpose. Its $400 US and we absolutely love it, great clarity and separation of instruments. It has a switchable pickup pattern but you would only want to use the cardioid pattern. I've played through the AT 4033 and those are nice too.
With any large diaphragm condenser you are going to have to deal with a little crowd noise coming back through the mic in a smaller club, but then again if you put 8 or 9 mics on stage to capture a full band you might have the same problem. You can get a mic with a "tighter" pickup pattern, ie "hypercardioid" but then you might run into problems fully picking up band members who are not "on-axis" (ie directly in front of the mic).
5-Picker Tim - Posted - 02/08/2011: 13:00:27
Dynamic mics like the SM57 work very well (and are a staple in the sound reinforcement industry) but are intended to be 'point of use' microphones for a single instrument. (or vocal)
The physical properties of a dynamic microphone simply won't allow quality sound reproduction at distances of more than a couple of inches from the mic.
Condenser microphones by design, are utilized when wanting to capture an area of sound at greater distances, such as in the band setting you refer to.
Typically, large diaphragm (1") mics have a little sweeter overall frequency response than a smaller diameter condenser mic and the AT-4033 & 4040 mentioned above are excellent choices.
Another excellent candidate is the AKG-C3000.
Because of their greater capabilities to pick up sound, condenser mics are usually not used with stage monitors.
But trust me... once you get used to playing in a tight formation without monitors, you will never want to go back.
You can feel every note or vocal bend.
I've used the above mentioned PRO-37R (smaller diameter diaphragm) with 'pretty good' results for a band setting. But IMHO, because of the smaller diameter diaphragm, it is just a bit too harsh without utilizing some kind of processing on the back end. They are absolutely GREAT instrument mics though.
Our band went to a large diaphragm, tube driven condenser mic (CAD M9, see avatar) 4 or 5 years ago and the tube pre-amp really warms the sound without having to utilize any FX.
Keep in mind, condenser mics need some kind of power source to 'excite' the diaphragm and make it work.
Most PA mixers have phantom power available at the channels and power the mic right through the cable.
If your mixer doesn't have phantom power, there are stand alone pre-amps available for a reasonable price.
Also, some condenser mics (like the AT-C1000S) have a place for an on-board battery to provide the power.
One side note when using a condenser mic... keep the stage banter between band members to a minimum... the audience will hear every dirty joke or mis-spoken under your breath comment you make.
Hope this helps.
Just my 2 ¢... YMMV.
(edited for spelling)
Edited by - 5-Picker Tim on 02/08/2011 13:05:49
baz dixon - Posted - 02/08/2011: 17:10:13
Well thanks for all that guys ,very informative .i'm also in the same band as john.it is a condenser mic that we use but a very cheap one, buying a better one just got me out of making some monitors. thanks again.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/08/2011: 20:01:50
quote:
Originally posted by 5-Picker Tim
One side note when using a condenser mic... keep the stage banter between band members to a minimum... the audience will hear every dirty joke or mis-spoken under your breath comment you make.
5stringJim - Posted - 02/08/2011: 20:41:21
I'd go with the AT 4033. I have one with a stand-alone phantom power supply. The mic is around £300 in the UK. Another good ( and cheaper ) choice is the Rode NT2, £170- ish.
WildJimbo - Posted - 02/08/2011: 21:22:47
We've used the Rode NT1 for almost 10 years. In the past few years we've actually started using two of them, but for an example of a live show with just one Rode NT1 you can listen here: lonemountainband.com/downloads just scroll down to the "Live! at the John C Campbell Folk School"
We use no monitors, and the mic is pretty hot, but we do work it pretty close.
banjoak - Posted - 02/08/2011: 22:07:46
I agree with Tim, a SM57 is not going to do the job for you.
The choice of mic is greatly dependent on many other factors. Where you play, the size and shape of the places, and what reflective surfaces exist, both going to the audience, and on stage. How loud you need it to be for the audience. How much ambient noise. The sound on stage (many found no monitors is easiest to deal with) How you actually use them (and how skilled you are) when performing. I saw groups blame the mic, feedback, crowd noise, poor balance; when it was really that they were expecting the mic to perform miracles. You have to know how to use any mic, and each might be a little different, what it does well, and what it has problems with. It's tough to get a one mic fits all.
Some of these mics, as well as other equipment can get quite expensive. It might be worth the $ paying a qualified sound engineer (not a salesman) to evaluate all your needs, come up with options. Might even let you try out some different set-ups.
seanray - Posted - 02/09/2011: 07:21:29
I like the AT 4033 & Rode NT1 though they're both a tad frostier, to my ears, than a Shure KSM32 which is my preference for a whole band.
Frankly you really can't lose with either of these three choices for the $200 - $500 range.
arnie fleischer - Posted - 02/09/2011: 08:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
Some of these mics, as well as other equipment can get quite expensive. It might be worth the $ paying a qualified sound engineer (not a salesman) to evaluate all your needs, come up with options.
RB-1 - Posted - 02/09/2011: 12:01:45
I'd like to mention the mike that outperformed the Audio Technikas, the Rodes and the Neumanns (!).
The Audix SCX-25A audixusa.com/docs/products/SCX25-A.shtml.
I ususally set up two, one for vocals & band and one for the solo instrument.
john leary - Posted - 02/10/2011: 06:44:31
Hey, thanks for a great input guys.
You've all certainly given me something to thinks about.
Cheers John.
jacov - Posted - 02/11/2011: 06:30:18
quote:
Originally posted by jfb
If you would like to hear what one Sure SM-57 sounds like in the middle of a group, take a listen to the Cushman jam on my home page..Take care
ewlewl - Posted - 02/15/2011: 09:12:53
live a 57 is hard to beat studio nuemann u87is the bestpaired with another mic say another u87
Mr. Bill - Posted - 02/15/2011: 10:36:55
The things I would add to this great discussion regarding large diaphragm mics are...watch the feedback and the gain. As mentioned, stage monitors are likely OUT. I've seen them used but only by a really good professional sound technician. House speakers can also cause feedback if they and the mic or mics are too close. My limited experience with this kind of mic is that even a cardioid pattern picks up those house speakers more easily than the small diaphragm mics. So be careful in mic and speaker placement. The other is gain...again my limited experience in listening to bands use these mics is that their overall house gain is lower than if they were working with individual mics. Part of that is the players' distances from the mic as well as fighting feedback.
Choreography around a single large diaphragm is fun to watch. We never got it right...others do. I love the sound of the KSM 32...I think the Rhonda Vincent band uses them or close. The Audix mic mentioned is killer...and very sensitive. Most of the mics mentioned here will do nice jobs.
Trewq36 - Posted - 02/15/2011: 14:08:43
And to all the above I would like to add that every room and every setup is different. From sq. ft to ceiling height, or the size/layout of the stage. Every time you setup it will be different.
It is first a learning curve to understand your equipment and band mates. But then comes the voodoo part every time you change venue. Got to learn to read the space. Besides where all the sound sources are, (speakers/kitchen), you've got to note how high are the ceilings, how far to a reflective surface, etc., etc.,...????
Then remembering that most mics pickup a percentage of whats behind them, find the sweet spot for your setup. Roll the dice, check the tea leaves, turn clock wise three times raise your arms and praise your favorite sprite.
...Voodoo.......Good luck to yea.
Never Play the Same Thing Once....yoR
mrbook - Posted - 02/16/2011: 19:02:42
Keep the speakesr in front of the mic, and the farther away you can get will give less feedback. I sound guy gave me a fomula once, but every foot in distance between the mic and speakers decreases the chance of feedback substantially. A good mic will work better than an inexpensive one.
jacov - Posted - 02/17/2011: 08:50:38
You should know that after I saw that post about using an sm57 for the whole band, I made a try with a dynamic audio-technika I have and it was great! thank you for the idea. the sm57 worked less well for us because the AD was more loud.