What's the difference between scale and key? If I'm playing a song in the key of G then wouldn't G be the root of the scale? Could you play multiple scales in the key of G or is there one G scale for that key?

@Texasbanjo
I found a mistake in the pdf-file. It's on page 7: The F#dim chord consists of the notes F# A and C. Not C# as in your handout.

Also, if I'm allowed to make a suggestion, I would include an explanation of how you make the chords out of a scale. Here's how Bill Keith explained it in a workshop:

We start with the regular G major scale

D---------------------0------------4-----|
B----------0--------------5--------------|
G-0------------5-------------------------|
D------7---------------------------------|
G--------------------------------------0-|

Let's take this scale and play it from the root (G) up to the fith tone (D)

D---------------------0---|
B----------0--------------|
G-0------------5----------|
D------7------------------|
G-------------------------|

Now we want to stress the first, third and fith note of this scale. 

D---------------------0---|
B----------0--------------|
G-0------------5----------|
D------7------------------|
G-------------------------|

What comes out is a G-major chord:

D--0----|
B--0----|
G--0----|
D-------|
G-------|

Now let's start on the second note of the scale, again emphasizing the first, third and fith note:

D---------------------0----------|
B----------0--------------5------|
G--------------5-----------------|
D------7-------------------------|
G--------------------------------|

What comes out this time is an a-minor-chord:

D--2-----------------------|
B--1-----------------------|
G--2-----------------------|
D--------------------------|
G--------------------------|

Let's do this will all notes of the scale. Since there are seven different notes to start with 
we'll get seven different chords out of the scale:

I G major
D---------------------0---|--0--|
B----------0--------------|--0--|
G-0------------5----------|--0--|
D------7------------------|-----|
G-------------------------|-----|

II a minor
D-------------------0------|--2--|
B--------0--------------5--|--1--|
G------------5-------------|--2--|
D----7---------------------|-----|
G--------------------------|-----|

III b minor
D----------0-------4-------|--4--|
B--0----------5------------|--3--|
G------5-------------------|--4--|
D--------------------------|-----|
G--------------------------|-----|

IV C major
D-------0---------4-------|--5--|
B-----------5-------------|--5--|
G---5---------------------|--5--|
D-------------------------|-----|
G---------------------0---|-----|

V D major [we have to expand our regular G scale by adding further notes after the high G]
D-0-------4------7--------|--7--|
B-----5-------------------|--7--|
G-------------------------|--7--|
D-------------------------|-----|
G------------0------------|-----|


VI e minor
D------4-----------9------|--9--|
B--5---------10-----------|--8--|
G-------------------------|--9--|
D-------------------------|-----|
G---------0---------------|-----|

VII F# diminished [this isn't major but it's also not minor. It's a chord that consists of two small thirds. 
Because of it's exceptional character and because of it's dissonant sound it was 
called "diabolus in musica" (devil in the music) in classical music theory classes.]


D-4------------9----------|--10--|
B---------10--------------|--10--|
G-------------------------|--11--|
D-------------------------|------|
G----0-------------10-----|------|

And then it goes back to G. You can find seventh chords by going two steps higher in the scale and emphasizing the seventh note. 
I think you can work this up by yourself... if not drop me a line.



Here's a neat thing that shows how you can use this in a bluegrass context:

If you want to find quick single string patterns, take any two neighbors:


For instance G major and a minor:
D-----------------------------0---2------|
B--------------------0---1---------------|
G-----------0---2------------------------|
D--0---2---------------------------------|
G----------------------------------------|
---T---I----T---I----T--I-----T--I-------|

or D major and e minor:

D-----------------------------7---9------|
B--------------------7---8---------------|
G-----------7---9------------------------|
D--7---9---------------------------------|
G----------------------------------------|
---T---I----T---I----T--I-----T--I-------|


Knowing these chord also helps to understand and develop up the neck breaks. Look at the Groundspeed kickoff for instance.
 Earl probably didn't have this harmonization of the scale in mind but those are the notes that fit in the key of G.
I think this is a great way to get to know the fretboard. It has helped me a whole lot to say the least.

Edited by - Zawinul on 05/10/2007 06:37:15

quote:

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Originally posted by ceXhc

What's the difference between scale and key? If I'm playing a song in the key of G then wouldn't G be the root of the scale? Could you play multiple scales in the key of G or is there one G scale for that key?

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Ok thanks, that helps.

You've got the idea. One thing I didn't say and should have is: this is the formula for MAJOR SCALES. Minor scales are a different foruma.

When I talk 1, 2, 3, I'm using what's called the Nashville Numbering System where you substitute numbers for letters. It's pretty easy to grasp if you understand that whatever KEY SIGNATURE you're in or whatever SCALE you're in, the first note of that key/scale is the #1 note and the other notes go in line, 2,3,4 and so on. Inotherwords, in the key of G or scale of G you have G, A, B, C, D, E, F# or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. If you're in the key of C, then C is the #1 and D is #2 and so on. Works the same for Chords except you use Roman Numerals (and if you're talking, you can't tell the difference).

And yes, you're correct, in bluegrass the "normal" chords you play are the I, IV, V (G, C, D in the key of G) with the "off" chords being the 2 (Am) and the 6 (Em) with an occasional 3 (Bm) and very, very seldom a 7 (F#dim).

As a "general rule" you can normally play the D7 for the D chord. A few times the D7 doesn't sound right but it'll usually work -- and it's so much easier to fret down the neck than the closed D chord, right?


Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

So a song played on the G major scale and a song played on the G minor scale would both be in the same key?

quote:

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Originally posted by ceXhc

So a song played on the G major scale and a song played on the G minor scale would both be in the same key?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Larson
The G major scale is played in the key of G.

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Edited by - Zawinul on 05/14/2007 09:47:13

quote:

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This may clear things up a bit: "Key of G" means almost always: Key of G major.

The key of G major and the key of G minor are two different things. They just have in common that both start on G.

Phil

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Edited by - Joe Larson on 05/15/2007 09:58:53

Again, sorry I haven't answered sooner. We've been out of town to a great bluegrass festival and just got back today.

To answer your question, yes, they key signature in MAJOR keys in as above -- for minor keys it changes, but you've got the correct idea about major keys.

I think I covered the ABC, 1, 2, 3 above, but if I didn't, contact me off list and I'll explain the Nashville Numbering System to you.

And yes, your basic bluegrass songs normally have the 3 MAJOR chords in them and then the "off" chords would, in probababilities be Am, Em occasionally Bm and very, very seldom ever a F#dim.

D and D7 can normally be used interchangeably BUT there are times when they are not -- you just have to try them and see if they sound okay and then use the one that sounds best.

Let's Pick!
Texas Banjo

I'm still confused a bit about minor vs major keys. If someone could just list off the chords in the G minor key in order, i think i would be able to figure it out.

For the natural minor scale on G the diatonic chords are:

I g-minor
II A-diminished
III Bb-major
IV c-minor
V d-minor
VI Eb-major
VII F-major
VII g-minor

Phil

quote:

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Originally posted by Zawinul
If you want to find quick single string patterns, take any two neighbors:

For instance G major and a minor:
D-----------------------------0---2------|
B--------------------0---1---------------|
G-----------0---2------------------------|
D--0---2---------------------------------|
G----------------------------------------|
---T---I----T---I----T--I-----T--I-------|

or D major and e minor:

D-----------------------------7---9------|
B--------------------7---8---------------|
G-----------7---9------------------------|
D--7---9---------------------------------|
G----------------------------------------|
---T---I----T---I----T--I-----T--I-------|

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Actually it was Bill Keith who had this great idea. I just learned it from him and now I spread the word .

Phil

thank you zawinul

jesh... knowing where the notes are on yer fretboard is really important... sheit... i should start learning that immediatly.

hmmm...a rockin chair a banjo and a cold beer

This is a great post and very helpfull-now i just need time for the mud in the water to settle down so it all becomes clear. Just need to study more. Thanks

i also have an older copy. thanks for posting it . :-)

my banjo's love earl scruggs and bill keith !

Texas Banjo you are definitely a jewel in the crown of the Banjo Hangout. Your willingness to teach us is appreciated more than you can ever imagine! Your music theory lesson is exactly what I have been looking for! I only wish that Michigan was not so far away from Texas, I’d be bugging you for individual lessons if you were within a two or three hour drive. You’re a real blessing to so many!
Thanks again!

~ Grizzly, the Banjo Pickin' Bear

"We're all here.........cause we ain't all there!"

I have theory lessons posted at musicmoose.org absolutely free!

I just wanted to give a big thank you to the poster for this free guide. I did like others advised, and did a Right Click/"Save link As" - so that way it's downloaded and not hammering the server every time one loads a page- also it works off line this way.

I admit I have a lot to learn in this area. I play entirely by ear, and really need to learn something new. I figure if I can learn some new scales I'll still play Alternative style, but with lessons learned from a Bluegrass guide.

Thanks a lot for this sticky post!

Terry

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryan Cavanaugh

I have theory lessons posted at musicmoose.org absolutely free!

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 10/28/2007 10:17:51

Thanks Sherry. This info is always good to look at. Tony

Sherry, As always thanks................I love the stuff you help us with!.......:-)


Cheers!
Don
"have picks..............will travel"

I know nothing about music, and the banjo I ordered won't be in until tomorrow. I hate to admit it, but I just read the first posting under "Beginning Banjo Theory 101" (the long one explaining scales, licks, chords, etc.) and it reminded me of my first exposure to Hebrew in Seminary. I was lost then, too. Will this get easier to understand as time goes on?