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MrManners

Joined 10/17/2012
1398 Posts

08/16/2013 16:44:19  View MrManners's Photo Albums  View MrManners's Blog  Reply with Quote

Here are a couple of down loaded charts showing the natural harmonics,usually recognized,you can take a pair of needlenose pliers and find extensions of these all the way to the vicinity of the bridge

.Banjoy [Frank Estes] has presented 3 nice vids on this subject so he is the one that is to be considered the maestro on this,never the less i feel the need to impart a little more fuel for the fire..

I do get the 0ne  fifth string length   harmonics on my banjo at the almost 4th fret 9th fret and so on.On the g string this is a b,i think earl mentioned this as a mystery in his book.The tempered scale is one reason is is not exactly over the fret.These charts even show a  harmonic in the third fret region ,i'll have to try that.A d note on the 3rd string it says.

.A chimed note at the 12 is twice as fast as the root,the string is being cut in half and this makes the'' all of a sudden'' half lengths go twice as fast.,if you go to the 5th or seventeenth fret and chime,and you cut the string in fourths,making the note4 times as fast as the root.

 Also the 7th fret chime cuts it in 3 pieces so it is 3 times as fast, (a high d note on the g string)the 4th fret chime slices it in 5 parts and is weak  in comparison,on the g string this is a b note.

You can take a tape measure and measure from the nut up to a chime, then go to the bridge and measure down the same increment and find the same chime,since they are caused by equal increments .

Another chart i have included is one showing frequency and actual wave lengths of the individual notes,this is slightly related to this ,because the most strong natural harmonics are the major chord notes and this chart shows  somewhat of reason.

 In one instance it shows a g note wave of 1400 centemeters.when the string makes 4 excursions that is 5600 centimeters of travel in the air,the b note another note in the g chord is a shorter 1110 centimeters however you multiply by 5 you get 5550 centimeters,which is fairly close,the reason it can't be made perfect comes under discussion of the''tempered scale'',the d note the last note of the chord is an even shorter 940 centimeters but multiply it by 6 you get 5640 centimeters.Summarizing the the g and b are in sync every 5 th time and g and d every 6 times ,Keep in mind this is going on up to a few hundred times per second.--Tom

banjoy

United States
Joined 7/1/2006
6879 Posts

08/16/2013 17:05:39  View banjoy's MP3 Archive  View banjoy's Classified Ads  View banjoy's Photo Albums  View banjoy's Blog  Reply with Quote

I am not a maestro on this for sure. The natural harmonics you point out are definitely there, at the 4th fret especially is easy to hear which is repeated at the 9th fret (try it!) and again at the 16th fret (try it!) then again at what would be the 26th fret (try it!) all produce the exact same harmonic. Basically, dividing the string into 1/5 its length.

The harmonic at the 5th fret is repeated at the 24th fret, well, where it would be but you don't need no stinkin' fret there :)  (try it!)

The harmonic at the 7th fret is repeated at the 19th fret (try it!)

The harmonic at the 3rd fret (yes, it's there, but hard to hear but it's there) is repeated at would would be the 28th fret if you have it. That's about roughly 5" from the bridge, on top of the banjo head. But you can catch the exact same harmonic there.

It's really not frets that make the harmonic where it is, but string length. That's why the harmonics don't correlate to the actual fret markers (for example, the first line of this post, pointing out 4 different places for the exact same harmonics, makes no real sense in relation to the frets. But it makes perfect sense when it's understood the total string length is what matters, from nut to bridge)

For me, I don't think in terms of which note is which when it comes to harmonics. So your take on this is stuff I need to digest and understand, but it's as valid an approach as any as far as I can tell.

It's interesting and fun stuff to mess around with.

= = = = =

EDIT TO ADD: here's a link to the thread I started, about this stuff. When it comes to this kind of thing, more fuel on the fire ain't at all bad smiley


Edited by - banjoy on 08/16/2013 17:12:50

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MrManners

Joined 10/17/2012
1398 Posts

08/16/2013 17:22:35  View MrManners's Photo Albums  View MrManners's Blog  Reply with Quote

exactly the frets are tempered scale, the chimes are not.another reason a lot of people'' with ears better than mine'' leave the b string a little flat, i personally don't need to try for the other ones you mention ,but if a person has not tried it they should,they are anywhere that particular interval repeats.
For the fun of it frank get your picks on and get a pair of needle nose pliers out slide style . Tom

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MrManners

Joined 10/17/2012
1398 Posts

08/16/2013 18:19:52  View MrManners's Photo Albums  View MrManners's Blog  Reply with Quote

Frank your link here sends them right back here.I'll let you fix that i know for sure you are up on that computer knowledge
The things i pointed out about the reasons the 3 rd and 5th reinforcing or being sympathetic to the root are cool scientific facts,but unfortunately science has not gone on to explain minor or diminished etc.,so it is no more than a fun fact for a slow news day.---Tom .

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banjoy

United States
Joined 7/1/2006
6879 Posts

08/16/2013 18:58:24  View banjoy's MP3 Archive  View banjoy's Classified Ads  View banjoy's Photo Albums  View banjoy's Blog  Reply with Quote

Oops my bad. I made a post to my own thread saying you had started this thread with a link to it, and evidently pasted the same link here again.

So, here is the link to that other thread: http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/268814

Someone made a post there about a banjo picker I've never heard of who was~is a master of artificial harmonics on banjo. Very cool!

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MrManners

Joined 10/17/2012
1398 Posts

08/16/2013 19:31:46  View MrManners's Photo Albums  View MrManners's Blog  Reply with Quote

Raymond Mclain was picking the fire out of an arch top ,melodic ,straight and single string with the Mclain family band ,as a very very young boy 30 to forty years ago,now days he is very important with the music program at a tennessee college,you will catch him on you tube with his students lined up playing fine string music,he probably plays anything .---Tom

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MrManners

Joined 10/17/2012
1398 Posts

08/17/2013 05:32:20  View MrManners's Photo Albums  View MrManners's Blog  Reply with Quote

kinda looking at the simple math on the 49 cycle per second g note at 4 seconds it hits an exact 196 times,the b note hits 246.96 times the same duration,that is close enough to round off for me,at 5 seconds the g has went thru an exact 245 cycles  and the d note is at 367.1 which is close.they get closer as time goes by,as does the b,the  flatted 3rd and 5th  seem to  have similar relations but take longer to cycle around,

 this is not looking at the overtones of the mentioned notes which no doubt comes into play,folks with gifted hearing hear the individual harmonics to a much higher degree than myself

here is a link to the chart i borrowed yesterday---Tom

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html


Edited by - MrManners on 08/17/2013 05:33:12

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steve davisPlayers Union Member

United States
Joined 5/9/2007
51353 Posts

08/20/2013 12:36:52  View steve davis's MP3 Archive  View steve davis's Classified Ads  View steve davis's Photo Albums  View steve davis's Blog    Reply with Quote

My '2 conversion has many more and stronger harmonics than my other banjos.
Jimmy Cox fitted that walnut neck so perfectly to that ancient rim!

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