I bought this banjo on ebaY.  It was sold as a Baldwin style B.  But I don't really know what it is.  Any ideas?

The parts look like original Baldwin/Ode to me.  But it is a strange combination.  This banjo shipped form north-central Arkansas.  Maybe it is a floor sweep model of some sort dating from when the Baldwin factory was not too far away.  Or maybe it is just a collection of parts....who knows?

The fingerboard inlay looks like a style B

The armrest is engraved

The tone hoop skirt is engraved

There is no cast tone ring -  just a hoop.

I don't see a serial number

I'd really appreciate comments from any Ode/Baldwin experts.

John--Having worked at Ode during the transition to Baldwin, my distinct impression is that it is in fact a Boulder-made instrument. The atypical rococo curves on the heel and handstop were the signature shape on all necks by Monty N, who was one of the backroom craftsmen, and neither myself or any of the other few guys shaping necks were at all partial to that look. As you might guess, we had a certain amount of creative latitude before the days of CNC carvers. I don't know what to tell you about the absence of a true tone ring and the combination of engraved and non-engraved parts on a Model B makes me wonder if the banjo might not have escaped through the back door.

Chris

Thanks Chris:

"Back-door" I wondered the same thing.  It shipped from Russellville, AR.

What can you tell me about the engraved parts ...do they look authentic?

I was disappointed to find no tone ring.

More photos:

Edited by - jbalch on 08/18/2012 15:16:16

The engraving is identifiable as the work of Al Gabriella, who did all Ode's engraving and who made bits and spurs in his shop downtown before Boulder got yuppiefied.

Wasn't Russellville the location of the Baldwin factory? Perhaps the banjo was put together out of leftover parts that were shipped from the Boulder shop when it was closed. It appears from the photo that the resonator is walnut rather than Honduran mahogany, which inclines me to think that it is a parts banjo.

Chris

Chris:  Thank-you very much for the information.

The seller told me this banjo was from the estate of a 93 year old man who recently passed.  Apparently he gifted it to a caregiver who placed it for sale. That is about all they knew. He was told the banjo was a style B based on the fingerboard inlay. 

According to the OME history website, the Baldwin plant was in DeQueen, AR.  Russellville is a good distance away. perhaps the Arkansas location is just a coincidence.

I agree, it appears to me that this banjo is a parts instrument.  I'm really interested in the tone hoop.  It would appear to be original with the rim. 

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between a tone hoop and a tone ring? I understand what a tone ring is, but the hoop part?

A proper Baldwin Ode style B should have a cast bronze full flathead tone ring (like a Gibson Mastertone).

This banjo has a simple rolled brass hoop instead of the expected cast tone ring. The hoop is just a ring rolled out of (brass) bar stock and set into a rabbet on the outside edge of the wood rim.  The hoop is visible in the photo below:

I'm very curious about this unusual feature of the banjo. 

Edited by - jbalch on 08/18/2012 20:12:55

Got it, thanks.

John--The rim is apparently cut for Ode's stock flathead tone ring and I really can't recall if I've ever seen one with a hoop like yours. I suspect that it will sound just fine once it's properly set up.

Chris

I thought it looked like a a flathead ring might fit.  Here are some more photos taken after I cleaned the rim.

One more question:  The only mark on the banjo is a number "14" on the heel.  Do you have any thoughts on the significance of that?

Sorry, I don't remember ever seeing batch numbers, but for all I know, they may have been added when the finished necks and pots were assembled out front.

Chris

I don't know... If it sounds good when assembled and set up, I'd leave it's is. It is certainly a unique bit of ODE history. This is the kind of banjo that attracts me. If I had the money and could still play, lord knows what my collection would look like.

Edited by - mikehalloran on 08/19/2012 08:47:58

Mike:  I'm like you - I'm inclined to keep it as-is.  It is a mutt - for sure.  I'd love to know how and why it came to be this way.  It is not likely a bluegrass cannon ... but might make a really good Old-time banjo. Who knows?

The neck needs some work (to replace missing binding) so it will likely be a while before I get it back together. 

John

As others have said you have a parts banjo, what I call a back door special. Likely made in Arkansas  from left over Boulder parts and some newer baldwin parts. The shell is Ark. Baldwin.Two cor. rods counter sinks for the oval head screws.

The neck is Boulder built style B with the ode tuners.The resonator is C or D as it is walnut The arm rest looks like Boulder ODE style F. The tension hoop on a B would have been notched with round hooks.The ring is the outer ring from an ODE style E or F archtop.It had twenty some  tee shaped brackets that went into one eight in. holes in the top of the shell with an inner round rod ring Epiphone style It was made to interchange with a cast flathead ring. Dont know how I missed this one.

Thanks that is very helpful!

I've sent a LONG detailed email to John.

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 08/19/2012 13:13:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

I've sent a LONG detailed email to John.

 

Hopfully, he can format it properly, so it reads better here.

 

 

Best- Ed Britt

---

 Hi John --

My ancient Mac won't format text properly for the BHO Discussion
Topics.  So I'm sending this as an email -- which I'd like YOU to COPY
and PASTE into the "Reply" box of the Topic.  YOU should be able
to format the text more easily from Your computer.

Basically, Chris and "tlong" (Ted Heckman) have the mystery mostly
solved. The weird 'tonering' had me stumped, until I realized what it
was -- just before Ted answered, and provided the 'missing link'.

(If I'm guessing right, believe Ted might be the 'current' owner of
Bill Halsey's rare c'66 ODE F -- which is WHY he knows the answer...)

Best I can tell (as Chris points out) -- banjo is made almost entirely
Boulder-made parts, BUT made inder the Baldwin regime.  It IS
basically built on a Style B Frame.  The peghead IS cut on the Boulder
fixture -- the waist-cuts are done with a mall diameter router shaper
bit, and the inner surfaces are FLAT -- not curved like the Arkansas-
cut pegheads.

The rim appears to also be a Boulder-cut rim.  Baldwin had switched
to the multiply-rim BEFORE leaving Boulder,  and continued to produce
the BALDWIN Style B until it closed the Boulder shop, and moved
production to Arkansas. 


With the neck pointing straight up: look on INSIDE surface of the
rim very carefully -- at the 3-o'clock, 6-o'clock, and 9-o'clock,
positions -- about 3/8" inward from the rear edge of the
rim. 

The early Boulder-made Baldwins used the same TINY numeric
stamps for serial numbers as the ODES.  The numbers are only
about .100" high, and stamped lightly at one or two of those
positions. If it has a serial -- It would be a 3-digit number.

The NEW Baldwin Style C (designed by Myron Koenig) replaced the
Baldwin Style B. The Baldwin Style C was ONLY produced in Arkansas.

The cast flange is an early flange. But finished to Baldwin specs. The
flat plate of the flange is MUCH thicker than the Boulder-ODE flanges --
which were lathe-turned, (or ground) to reduce the thickness.

The dual coordinator rods were also introduced, by Myron, during the
Boulder years.

The peghead also has the ORIGINAL ODE planetary tuners, with the
large knurled screw.  Those were the FIRST reproductions of the
Ludwing "Planet-pegs". The Ludwigs were made in the 1920s.



Some oddities...
Which suggest the banjo was a floorsweep (or put together from
parts) -- purchased when they were closing-down the Boulder shop:

1. The Style B was cataloged with ROUND hooks, and a NOTCHED
       hoop. This banjo has FLAT hooks and a GROOVED hoop. (As
       used on the Aluminum-rim banjos...)

2. The Style B was mahogany.  As Ted (tlong) points out -- the
       resonator is walnut.  But it IS a Boulder-made resonator!

3. The engraved armrest IS a Boulder-ODE version -- engraved by
       Al Gabriella, as Chris states.   When Myron Koenig re-introduced
the engraved armrest and tailpiece on the '68 Baldwin Style Ds --
       he had Gabriella engrave the first dozen sets

4. The Missing Link -- Yes, Ted is correct. ODE produced their wood-
      rim banjos with TWO different tonerings: 

     A.  The typical CAST FLATHEAD ring.  Which all of the Bluegrass
            players prefer. (By Gibson standards, it's a "low-profile".)
            Baldwin adopted the cast ring for its wood-rim banjos.

     B.  A 'fabricated" brass tone-system (based on the Paramount
           and NY Epiphones of the 1920s) -- with a series of vertical
           brass plates sitting on the top surface of the rim.  The
           plates have a short 'tooth' or 'pin' sticking downward, that
           goes into holes drilled in the top surface of the wood rim.
              (THIS rim doesn NOT have holes in the top -- so it never
                had the plates installed.)


           Sitting on top of the brass plates was a hoop made of round
           brass rod.  The hoop was made in TWO diameters:

               11" Outside Diameter -- for a FLATTOP version.
               10 " Outside Diameter -- for an ARCHTOP version.

            Surrounding the combination of rod-and-plates was a tall
            heavy brass hoop -- as seen in John's photos.  It acted as
            the "skirt' for the head's 'flesh-hoop' to bear against.

            On the high-end ODE Style E's (nickle plated) and Style F's
            (gold plated) that skirt was engraved with the undulating
            pattern that you see. 

            AND... since only a large handful of THOSE rings were ever
            produced... THAT ring -- alone -- is probably worth MORE
            than the entire rest of the banjo!

            (My friend, Bill Halsey, ordered BOTH the CAST tonering and
            the Rod-on-Plates Archtop version, on his early Style F.
            They were easily interchangeable.)


             I've owned Boulder-ODE banjos (both aluminum rim and wood
rim) with BOTH types of tone rings. Since I'm a Folky, and
             play mostly clawhammer -- MY preference is the rare Rod-on-
             Plates FLATTOP version. It has the most mellow tone of the
             various possibilities.


Hope that helps... More than it confuses...


Best-
Ed Britt

Thanks Ed and all!  I'll keep you updated as I get this thing put back together.

BTW - I've searched under magnification and cannot find a serial number anywhere.

Thanks for the clarification, Ed, particularly about the oddball "tone hoop" thing. I knew that it looked awfully familiar, but 40+ years out from the "Ode days", I just couldn't place it.

And thanks all, for a most entertaining thread.

Chris

The GOOD news for John is that a typical Baldwin CAST Flathead tonering

should fit the rim just fine.

John, you also might want to check with Tommy George -- to see if he has any

of the Rod-on-Plates internal parts. (An 11" rod hoop is easy to get thru

Stew-Mac, etc. -- to make the FLATTOP version.)

Even getting a tracing of one of the original brass plates would allow you to get

some repro parts made.

Best- Ed Britt

Ed:

Do you mean Tommy George in Somerville, TN?  Do you think he might have an example of those parts?

JB

Hi, John...
Yup. The Tommy George who lives in Somerville. he does a lot of Ode/Baldwin work.

Ed beat me to it- that tone ring looks like half of the archtop multi-piece Ode design. Those archtops are super-rare on the wood rimmed banjos; I have never seen one in person, only pictures.

The tension hoop is a leftover stock item. All Odes had them a year before the wood rimmed banjos were introduced.

The most mysterious bit to me is the engraving on the tone ring. Only the unicorn-rare Style E had engraved nickel plated parts, so lots of speculation could be made.

I agree with Chris. I think this was either an employee banjo, or a floor sweep. It's possible an employee just scored a bunch of odds and ends for next to nothing and assembled it. Monty Novotny could have done this; he continued to make banjos out of Ode parts after he left the company.

You sure have a rare duck there! Congratulations!
regards,
stanger

Thanks: 

I know Tommy.  he loaned me a very nice banjo UKE to play for a while.  I'll contact him right away.

JB

"One Piece At A Time"