You could say that  from the moment you pick up an instrument and start learning how to play it then you are applying theory. You just don’t see it. It sneaks up on you. You’d be surprised how many musical in -theory questions you could answer with out knowing you learned the answers informally

Edited by - overhere on 02/08/2012 02:38:39

I am 6 or so weeks in to learning the banjo (the only instruments i have ever learned) and i do take lessons about 1-2 hours every 2-3 weeks. My instructor asked if i wanted to just learm to play or i wanted to learn theory also. I asked for SOME theory but didnt want to be bogged down with it. Using the car analogy (as it relates to me. Not everyone is the same and i know how i learn) learning to drive is fin but i want to know the basic theory behind the workings of the engine such as why it needs oil. But that is me. I jave enjoyed yhe little bit i have learned and may be i would be able to play better by now but im not in any hurry and i am having fun......just a newbee point of view.

Edited by - rabidhunter66 on 02/08/2012 04:30:30

Isn't it also at the start of Pete Seeger's banjo book attributed to an old time banjo picker?

Thanks for posting the question. It made me stop and think. I find that many things that I learned in school and playing trumpet in band for 9 years are absolutely worthless to me now. Technically, if I dig back into the memory banks a bit I know several scales, etc. but have never tried to apply that knowledge to banjo playing. I can read treble clef music with no problem whatsoever, but never really tried to apply that to the banjo either.
I can pick a few tunes though which is what I wanted to do. I think your question has pointed out a place where I can look to grow my understanding of the instrument itself and by doing so, make myself a better picker. I can learn anything if shown how to play it and then practice, but that is learning by rote. It's a great way to get going, but the theory is what you'll want when you don't want to be dependant on that.
All in all, I agree with the majority of folks here in that you don't want to worry yourself with it too much right off. I think that as you grow your skills, you will then find the areas that you'll need to dig deeper into instinctively. Many top players know theory, as applied to chords and scales especially, but can't read a note of music or tab. Above all else, they listen.

In my opinion (backed up by the prefaces of several piano music theory books), there are two different bases from which to learn theory. One is scale-based and it works very well for single-note instruments such as flute or saxophone.

The other is chord-based and works very well for chorded instruments playing pop music written after 1850.

Chords are built from scales AND scales drop out of chords

You can start from either side of that equation and derive much of the other stuff. But not all.
imo, scale-based theory does NOT work for modern chorded instruments very well because of its basis in 7-note modes.

Tell me the _single_ scale you would play to express a song such as Five Foot Two (key of C) or Salty Dog (key of G). Both of those use a standard major scale with the G# note added. I can give you the scale (unnamed) to play either of those songs on a chorded instrument (collect all the notes from each chord used in the progression). A single-scale theory requires multiple different modes in different keys to 'explain' how to play a simple song such as these. (Modes are pretty much the best way to explain chords so far to an instrumentalist who can only play one note at a time).

quote:

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Originally posted by overhere

You could say that  from the moment you pick up an instrument and start learning how to play it then you are applying theory.... 

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Which is _exactly_ the way native 4-year-olds pick up the grammar of their parent's language--thru speaking

quote:

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Originally posted by minstrelmike

In my opinion (backed up by the prefaces of several piano music theory books), there are two different bases from which to learn theory. One is scale-based and it works very well for single-note instruments such as flute or saxophone.

The other is chord-based and works very well for chorded instruments playing pop music written after 1850.

Chords are built from scales AND scales drop out of chords

You can start from either side of that equation and derive much of the other stuff. But not all.
imo, scale-based theory does NOT work for modern chorded instruments very well because of its basis in 7-note modes.

Tell me the _single_ scale you would play to express a song such as Five Foot Two (key of C) or Salty Dog (key of G). Both of those use a standard major scale with the G# note added. I can give you the scale (unnamed) to play either of those songs on a chorded instrument (collect all the notes from each chord used in the progression). A single-scale theory requires multiple different modes in different keys to 'explain' how to play a simple song such as these. (Modes are pretty much the best way to explain chords so far to an instrumentalist who can only play one note at a time).

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Mike, is there a teaching tool (dvd, book, audio tape, etc) you are aware of that would help me learn to understand this comment of yours.  Seriously, I started playing later in life and I would like to dig into this and learn it...if I can?  I only asked this publicly because I'm sure others would be interested in your response.

Thanks, Darrick

Get into the banjo first. You won't know which theory questions to ask until you have some applications to relate it to.
My formal music education (piano & clarinet) started about 4th grade. More than half a century later, I discovered that a lot
of "banjo things" needed to become second nature, THEN the music theory helps a little.

I'll add my 2 cents. It's not at all necessary to learn music theory to be a beginning banjo student. And much of the theory you're going to learn won't  necessarily be labeled as such. You'll learn the 3 major chords in the key of G. You'll learn the notes in G (that'll be the scale). You'll learn to transpose from G to other keys etc. The rest of it will depend on how curious you are. At least that's why I learned. I wanted to know why you call it a 7 chord or a diminished or augmented and so on. And some of it is so esoteric it won't make any difference in your playing at all.

So how'd the lesson go?

j

Edited by - Joe Larson on 02/08/2012 10:41:51

Unless you have an awfully good "ear" for music (which I doubt since you say you're new to musical instruments) there are some very basic "theory" fundamentals that will go a long way until you're ready to absorb the rest of it.

I'd suggest the following to go along with your banjo lessons.

1.  Learn what a basic chromatic scale is (naming the notes) and what it looks like on a piano keyboard.  (step, step, 1/2 step, step, step, step, 1/2 step.)   It was always easier for me to grasp when looking at a keyboard.  Understand what a "sharp" and "flat" means.  See how it works in the scale of C, then G and D--maybe A.  You don't have to memorize all this,  just get a basic understanding of how it works, then apply it to the banjo neck.  After a while, learn about the Nashville numbering system and how chords work.

2.  Get a firm, basic understanding of timing early on.  This includes the concept of a "measure" and how many "beats" are in every measure.  Learn the "value" of the different notes--whole, half, quarter, 1/8, 1/16, and the concept that all the fractions must equal the whole.  4/4, 2/4, 3/4 concept.  Most good tablature today includes timing. 

When you learn a tune as it's given to you in a lesson, the correct timing is taken for granted.  When you start to work on very simple arrangements on your own, a train wreck will soon happen if you don't understand your timing.  If your tune is all 1/8 notes in 4/4 timing, there must be eight of them in each measure.  When you start adding in whole, 1/2 and 1/4 notes, those note values still MUST add up to a complete measure.  When you're playing by yourself, an error in timing can easily be overlooked, but when you start playing with other folks, -------think "train wreck". 

Errors in timing stand out much more than a couple wrong notes.  Good luck with your lessons.

Jeanie

Jeanie - Your last point is right on.  I find it much easier to teach a student who's tone deaf than one who can't keep time. 

The chromatic scale comes in really handy when looking for where on the neck to play movable chords and in transposing tunes.

Edited by - Jim Yates on 02/08/2012 19:38:54

Then would this be the correct forum to ask you good folks a question about playing counts? I just today began working with BIAB and here's all these back up tracts with such a variation of different play counts from 22 - 300 !! Some higher, some lower; what in the world do they represent? I haven't a clue how to read these let alone play with them.

Would some one give me a quick little tip in music theory, and how to play with BiAB. if this is part of what I need to learn.

Thank you.

Butch B.

I try to teach mechanics, structure, technique- and I sprinkle in theory.  I don’t go overboard at first.  Some sticks, some doesn’t.  But eventually, what doesn’t stick at first, when it’s time comes to “stick” is recalled as vaguely familiar; kind of like “Oh, I remember something like that.”  I was self taught.  I wish I had someone teach me theory, or at least given me basic knowledge, when I first started.

As important if not more so with bluegrass is yes music theory but also what bluegrass is as opposed to just country. Bluegrass is unique as to theory applied. Strange things go on inside a bluegrass song. Beat tempo rhythm are kinda unique to bluegrass. Early on with bluegrass as opposed to straight country was some of the songs were being played at a rapid pace but the singing parts were kinda slow comparatively. It was mentioned the “musicality” of bluegrass. All demonstrated when you here a pop singer try to sing blue moon of Kentucky. They may have talent and great singing voices but something always seems to be missing. Also their phrasing most times are miles off. Theory applied to bluegrass is a whole different animal. Especially what bluegrass instruments are doing again as opposed to other forms of music.
Which opens up the arguments of what is/isn’t bluegrass?
Playing ahead of the beat for instance. Or fitting in some Flatt G runs or Earls licks at high speed.
Bluegrass is more about musicality then theory. You have to have bluegrass in your soul for it to sound its best.

Many people have played good music all their lives without any knowledge of theory.
Simply by knowing 3 basic chord shapes and figuring out where melody and harmony notes are located within them(by ear) these things get burned into the memory(brain and fingers) and become second nature.

Like familiar roads.

Playing what sounds right.Training the ear.

Learn music theory as you go, but don't let it detract from learning to play the banjo. For a beginner, there is a lot of music in the first five frets of the banjo and if you learn enough to get around down there, you will be jamming and playing music with others very soon. 

Once you have developed a pretty good brain-finger interconnect, and are comfortable making and changing chords there, you will find yourself wanting to move up the fingerboard. Chord inversions and moveable chords will become important to you, and that is a step on the road to learning music theory as it relates to  the banjo!

Let your desire and curiosity continue to lead you through the maze of theory, as far as you want to go.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by DarrickMike, is there a teaching tool (dvd, book, audio tape, etc) you are aware of that would help me learn to understand this comment of yours.  Seriously, I started playing later in life and I would like to dig into this and learn it...if I can?  I only asked this publicly because I'm sure others would be interested in your response.

Thanks, Darrick

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There isn't anything I've found and truthfully, the difference between the two 'theories' is sort of irrelevant.
They are both limited in what they can describe. They both end up _having_ to describe the same thing.

Piano-based theory books are the best. How to Teach Yourself Piano Despite Years of Lessons is the closest one to a chord-based theory. For yourself, think of songs as a collection of chords instead of as a collection of scales and that helps align thoughts chordally. And if you are theory-minded like a mathematician or somebody, pay attention to when the theory of scales says the key or tonal center is moving in a song that doesn't actually change keys for someone who is playing the chords.

Learn the circle of fifths. (Not really, don't learn it, learn to draw it yourself by drawing a blank clock (12 notches) then start at C at 12 o'clock and write down each of the 5ths going around). Learn the circle of fifths on your fretboard. Make a chord and then move to the chord a 5th higher. Now do it from that chord again. Learn to do it from chord shape (f-shape or d-shape) instead of by chord name and you're pretty much done with chord 'theory' except for knowing the exact progression of the particular song.

Familiarize yourself with chord progressions by playing songs. After 100 songs, you may discover the 4 major (non-modal progressions) and the 'modal' ones too. Be sure and know the relative minors are identical (the way the scales are in jazz too). G and Em are pretty much the same chord so make them the same when trying to categorize chord progressions (the way scale theory makes them the same).

4 chord progressions: 1,4,5  (Any and all orders including relative minors)
2)add the 2 chord (usually 2-5) which is just a circle of fifths jump-ahead one notch.
3) straight circle of fifths where you jump ahead and roll back> Five Foot Two: C E A D G C
This is often added to 1/4/5 tunes such as the end of Beaumont Rag
4) 1-3-4  G-B-C found in Old Home Place, Pallet on Your Floor and Tennessee Waltz.

Modal tunes jump the other direction on the circle of fifths generally.

Do note that jazz single-note players need to know the chord progression first in order to know which scales they are supposed to be playing. The chord progressions--the harmonization scheme--is what they start with over and above the melody.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peanutscreams

Then would this be the correct forum to ask you good folks a question about playing counts? I just today began working with BIAB and here's all these back up tracts with such a variation of different play counts from 22 - 300 !! Some higher, some lower; what in the world do they represent? I haven't a clue how to read these let alone play with them.

Would some one give me a quick little tip in music theory, and how to play with BiAB. if this is part of what I need to learn.

 

Thank you.

Butch B.

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Butch, when you refer to "play counts" I believe you mean the number of beats per minute. This is a measure of how fast or slow a song is. BIAB is a bit of a world unto itself and I'd be glad to walk you through some of the basics. I'll send you a PM. There's a little bit of theory needed to work with BIAB and I'd be glad to help you.

Cheers,

Donna

Oops...didn't realize at first Butch was referring to the "play counts" on posted BIAB files...thought he was actually creating stuff in BIAB. My previous response was totally off-base.  No beats per minute (or theory) need be involved.

--Donna

Okay, think I'm back on track now Donna. I'm going to work / (play) hard this week-end playing around with these MP3's. I say play because this is fun.

I know I'm learning music theory as I go along without even thinking about it.

Butch B.

I agree with the letting desire and curiosity drive the process. 

The way I see gaining gradual music theory is - at first you just need simple explanation; as you get more experience and more curious, you supplement, if not replace the simple explanations with more detailed (and complex) explanations.

One thing to remember - the music always comes first. Many folks can attest to playing with folks insistant on applying some music theory rules first, (often what was written in a book), while it represents a possibility, it changes the music (doesn't really fit to the intent), doesn't necessarily sound better. Just because you can put a certain chord in doesn't mean you should.