We are accustomed to hearing intervals rather than precise pitches which is what a tuner gives you. I find that using a tuner exclusively to tune usually gets you from "way off" to "Pretty close."

The algebraic ratios that scholars from Greek times associated to music, do not work perfectly in the 12 semi tone scale. therefore,
a systematic tempering of the intervals is required. 19 semitones, mathematically offer better major thirds and far better minor thirds at the expense of a flatted 5th. 24 equal temperament notes to the octave is common in Arabic music.

So all things considered, tuners are great in their ability to hear in noisy rooms, get you in the "pretty close" range and proving that it's "not me" to your jam friends, to use your tuner as the end all when you tune is only half of the job. Piano Tech's will spend as much time tempering the piano as they do bringing it up to pitch.

My only point is, be aware that tuning and tempering are different aspects to tuning up. Tempering is what your ear training tells you. Tuning is what your electronic tuner says.

As a little side bar, I think with very few exceptions, perfect pitch is a myth. There are only ears trained to different levels of perfection.
And yes, it seems as though I spend half of my life tuning the banjo, and the other half is spent playing out of tune.

E-tuners SAVE SO MUCH TIME. You're not always waiting for that one guy to quit tinkering. I'm a newbie banjoist but for decades I tuned my guitars to harmonicas. Finally stepped up to a Korg with built-in mic, the kind you have to balance on your knee while you shout for everybody to be quiet. Despite its awkwardness, the Korg taught me that, by ear, I'd been tuning some strings flat, particularly the guitar B string when I played in key of G.

The clip-ons are a better world, but I don't mind badmouthing mine -- labeled Intelli IMT-500. It swings wildly for the guitar's two lowest strings and I actually have to tune to the 12th fret harmonic. For banjo it's OK, but still doesn't lock on like some. Next time I order from Elderly I'll get a Snark. A new friend, a BHO member, got a tuner from Gold Tone that's impressive -- really bright, locks right on. $30 however. Or maybe I'll wait for the next generation, because they are bound to get smaller, less intrusive, and fit better in your pocket. I too don't like the look of them on the instrument. I dislike Kyser capos for the same reason. And if you've ever seen an instrument festooned with BOTH a tuner and a Kyser... it's an ugly sight. Luckily, on an open-back banjo you can clip a e-tuner to the dowel stick until you need it. (Just don't drop it; but if you do, don't step on it.)

But acoustic instruments are never in perfect tune, and the fighting overtones are part of their charm. Those who say e-tuners only take you so far are probably "sweetening" their tuning, like I'd been doing -- usually flatting some strings to favor an open tuning or the tonic chord. This works better on banjo than on the more chord-oriented guitar, but still throws other chords and positions even farther out than if you stuck with the equal-temperament tuning dictated by an e-tuner. I suspect a prominent member here, Mike Halloran, is a real authority on tuning. It's a surprisingly big subject.

Riley

Oops! Don Shriner posted his comment above while I was still stammering around, writing mine. I didn't mean to imply that HE was not a real authority on tuning. I think he'd agree, though, that -- as I said -- it's a surprisingly big subject. I will bet that Wickipedia has quite a bit to say about it.

Riley

You bet I agree with it all, I guess I was just saying what I did for awareness that developing you ear and trusting it is what we should strive for. I do believe in appropriate technology for sure.

I did look it up on wicki just to see what it said about tuning, after reading that, I'm ready for a beer.

This is an interesting thread. I've come to discover tuning is a lot more complicated than I imagined. The different ways of tempering an instruments tuning are pretty fascinating. There's some videos on youtube where they show the difference between "equal" and "well" temperaments; I prefer--from what I've heard "well" temperament.However I'd say I'm firmly in the "fer" category in regards to electronic tuners but I have to say (and I've written this on another thread) I never really learned to tune by ear until my electronic tuner broke.

fer, with reservations.

When I was learning guitar 40 some years ago, my late friend Greg Zorn taught me that the dial tone on the phone has an A in it, so I used that method for years. Tune one string to the dial tone, then use relative tuning. I also had a pitchpipe and a tuning fork, but phones are pretty much everywhere.
I now like to use a chromatic tuner, to help accommodate alternate tunings, tune after capo, etc. The clip-ons are great for tuning in jams, they ignore ambient sound.

Reservations: I still think it's important to be able to tune by ear. You should _listen_ to the sounds you make, not let a machine dictate them. I see people who are totally helpless without electronic tuners. So I think we should sharpen our ears by doing some relative tuning, maybe with one referent for jamming. Practice tuning low D to high D, low G to high g; use the 12th fret harmonic on a low string to tune the high string; use the 3rd-4th-5th frets to tune the next string; etc. Don't be helpless when batteries die or gadgets break.

Speaking of breaking: I'm against all these black gig bags and gadgets, they get invisible at night. Use bright colors for these things!

My $0.02 worth.

Mike

Edited by - mschenk on 02/09/2012 12:01:03

Fer

I think the ear training has got to be key, because with practice I am slowly getting better at getting in tune and playing in tune; and it's still the same e-tuner. There has also got to be some technique to it. I remember when I started tuning a guitar from the inside strings out (instead of from the top down), that was a big improvement. I just read that you're not supposed to tune the open B to the 3rd string 4th fret (like I had been doing) because that will be out of temper. Can anybody confirm this for me? Also is there a generally agreed order or method to tuning the strings that seems to get the tempering right for the open G tuning?

I think the ear training has got to be key, because with practice I am slowly getting better at getting in tune and playing in tune; and it's still the same e-tuner. There has also got to be some technique to it. I remember when I started tuning a guitar from the inside strings out (instead of from the top down), that was a big improvement. I just read that you're not supposed to tune the open B to the 3rd string 4th fret (like I had been doing) because that will be out of temper. Can anybody confirm this for me? Also is there a generally agreed order or method to tuning the strings that seems to get the tempering right for the open G tuning?

I'm glad of them because when I have a guitar (6 strings), a harp (33 strings) and a banjo (5 strings) to tune, it's gonna save me some time. Just find e-tuners not much help for the highest octave of the harp (but neither is my ear).

javalina,

In G tuning or when tuning a guitar to standard tuning, I always tune the "B" string just a bit flat. If I am tuning a guitar for flamenco I tune both the B and the E string sharp.

so when tuning to myself by ear, do I want to tune the 3rd string, then the high G, then both D strings, and last get the 2nd string (3rd fret) in tune with the 1st string? Also, my banjo is an old long neck Bacon with a capo just about always on the 3rd fret; is the capo likely aggravating the tuning issues (like the way the strings seem to creep sharper as I play)?

I remember tuning my first aluminum rim banjo 35 years ago. Pitch pipes helped. Occasionally I would be fortunate enough to be close to a piano that was out of tune. Relative tuning worked relatively speaking. I remember listening to old recordings where Earl's third string was flat but still enjoyed listening to his music...but maybe an E-tuner could have helped Earl. Oh yea, if you checked the whole band was out of standard tuning but were tuned relatively so it sounded fine. I think today's technology is great. It doesn't mean you don't benefit from training your ear to hear notes. I still tweak after using an E-tuner. Fortunately I can hear pitch well and the fiddle (a strange box designed to torment a hack like myself) has been a great exercise in intonation. I understand the purest point of view. For me...I really value the smart and inexpensive tools available like tuners and would have enjoyed it years ago when getting a string in pitch was a mystery. I would have broken fewer strings. David E.

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

javalina,

In G tuning or when tuning a guitar to standard tuning, I always tune the "B" string just a bit flat. If I am tuning a guitar for flamenco I tune both the B and the E string sharp.

---

wow, I just tried what you said, tuned the B a little flat: that sure sounds better! Thanks for that info.

there have always been electronic tuners (conn made a big model back in the 70's at least) but you couldn't put them on the instrument. I have the Peterson Strobosoft for the iphone for the house and a red snark for when it's noisy. I think I agree that people should try to tune by ear, or at least train their ear to hear when they should use the snark.... But tuning is mandatory unless you only play by yourself. Fer 'em

With fretted instruments the big intonation problem is that when you push a string down to a fret you stretch it, increasing the tension, inevitably sharping the note. I dunno how many have heard of the Buzz Feiten Tuning System. It's used primarily on guitars but could be applied to any fretted instrument. At bottom, it argues that the nut should be compensated as well as the bridge. I came up with at least a glimmering into Feiten's idea independently while fooling around on dobro with a bar (which of course works as a moveable fret) and noticing where the notes lay, and wondering why the bar didn't quite line up with the frets below. I also wondered why every guitar I'd ever checked would go sharp on some notes on some strings. (Tune a guitar bass E string with an e-tuner; now fret that very useful G note 3 frets up. See -- pretty sharp! Before playing in G or C, I flat that bass string by quite a bit). Today, Feiten's system is incorporated into several companies' new instruments. For your existing guitar, many luthier shops out there have been licensed to install it. But dust off your credit card. And don't alter your 1935 Martin D-28.

As a banjo newbie; I should probably shut up, but it looks like a banjo owner can take his instrument farther toward good intonation than a guitarist can, and without permanently altering much of anything. First, make sure the neck is straight because there's little poing in adjusting other stuff till you've got that right. Then look at the action: if it's too high, fretting up the neck will sharp every note you play. Luckily you can either lower the bridge (sand under the feet) or buy a lower one. I think I'd experiment on $4 bridges before investing in a better one. And by the way, the adjustable neck rod is NOT for adjusting the action, but this is no place to explain why. I'm running long already.

A banjo's moveable bridge is a curse when you're tuning because it likes to creep sideways in response to varying string tension, but it's also a blessing because you can easily make small position adjustments. The bridge works better slanted (with "gut" strings this may not be true; I dunno), but it can also stand to be placed a litle farther toward the tailpiece than you think it ought to be. And banjoists, you lucky dogs, can get a generous amount of compensation at the bridge simply by buying a pre-compensated one. (With guitar, you should see how a luthier has to struggle, sculpting a bone saddle so artistically, just to make a disappointing level of improvement.) Next, make sure that the nut slots are cut deeply enough. If notes and chords feel less "stiff" to play with a capo on the 1st fret, the nut slots can probably be deepened. But go easy because it's hard to put material back. Having a pro check this won't cost much, and if your banjo is of high quality, it's unlikely much adjustment is needed.

Today's players of all fretted instruments play more melodically than ever before, so intonation gets ever more important. Even home-studio recordings are better than what pro studios could do decades ago, and at live gigs, mics, PAs and acoustic amps are better, clearer. Today, if your instrument is out of tune, people are going to hear it. Did somebody say, "Tune it or die!

Riley

I am Fer the digital tuner, owing to the frustration of having muted hearing [not deaf] but muffled,and although the aid I wear improves clarity of

sound its not good enough to tune by ear.  So I have 3 tuners, one is a key fob type, which is handy, then a clip-on CRAFTER chromatic tuner,

and also a guitar tuner which has a long lead microphone, which I use like a stethoscope to adjust the banjo head tension, by damping the strings

and sharply tapping the head, and it works for me folks.

Fer !

I have three tuners. My favorite for tuning my banjos is the PICK BOY QT01. It is approximately the size of a credit card and about 3/16 inch thick. Always handy in my shirt pocket. It uses the built in mic, therefore sometimes background noise interferes. The display is LCD and very stable, other tuners get confused with the banjo overtones and don't always indicate the proper pitch. I have used a Sabine tuner that is truely absolute when the electric guitar is plugged into it, however banjos cause all the leds to flash in random order until it gets so confused it goes dark and ignores the banjo completely.

Just submitted FYI.

There is tuning to a tuner then there is being in tune. They are not the same. (Thanks Don for starting to fill folks in on the why of that). Most folks don't really care about the latter so they do the former. I am fer them as long as they are properly used as the "tool" that they are. As noted earlier also, tuning to fixed pitch instruments (or effectively fixed pitch due to too many strings to retune on the fly) is a requirement if you are going to play with those folks and that includes reeded instruments such as harmonica (unless they tune them like ours did - yes, did and you can - in the early incarnation of The Boiled Buzzards) hammered dulcimer, autoharp, piano that is not at 440, (I could go on).

I'll quit here because this is one of those discussions where those who really want to know more will be interested in a very long discussion, the others will use the tuner. Oh, and another reason to not leave it on your peghead is that it can discolor the finish and add unnecessary weight (okay, 2 reasons).

Play nice,
Dan
www.Clawdan.com

And yes, I am one of those who can hear a few cents off in tuning. As the old tee shirt says, Tune it or die.

Thanks Clawdan, I kind of let this topic go because maybe the theory of tuning is not appropriate or interesting to many in this "Tuners, fer or a'gin" thread.

I only threw my comments out there in the hopes that maybe people would not get the tuner mixed up with being in tune. I find it extremely befuddling, bemusing and also bewildering, when a person defends their tuning by their saying, "I just checked it with the tuner".
I play with Accordions, Pianos, horns etc., Using a tuner to get in tune, forget about it.

I am not slamming anyone nor do I claim that I don't use one, Just that those that are interested and have serious aspirations of being a musician, should do some research.

Lets start another thread with this topic. I'd love to follow/contribute to that. Topic title: Tune it or die. Thanks.

Good post Dan.

Just last week at a jam, I tuned my guitar by ear to the fiddle, (it only took less than a minute) played a few tunes it sounded fine. Bass player  showed up, soon as they started to play, both the fiddler and myself noticed it didn't quite sound right. I mentioned this to the bass, and their response was "I tuned to the tuner", I thought fine, I used the fiddler's tuner to tune, and dang if I wasn't right on, but still was off from the bass.  Had to convince the bass player to recheck, (as he was adamant he tuned to the tuner), sure enough he was off. Here's the really strange part, even though his tuner showed "in tune" and the tuner I used showed "in tune" we were still off. I'm not generally that persnickity about precise tuning, but it was off enough, about maybe 8 beats/second. So I thought, fine I'll tune to the bass. Played a tune, now the fiddle sounded off from us. The fiddler got his tuner out and he was on. Both had similar comment "well I tuned to the tuner, what more can I do?" even though the fiddler noticed it didn't quite sound right. My suggestion of let's just tune by how it sounds, was greeted with confused stares. 

On another note, speaking of fixed pitch instruments like a harmonica; many folks who depend on tuners don't realize you can set the calibration of the tuner to the fixed pitch instrument. Of course for some folks it would upset them to know (well what the machine says) they are not in A440.

Edited by - banjoak on 02/14/2012 13:48:40

Snark are popular for a reason, they are fast, accurate and cheap and pretty good on the battery as well. If i am not in a hurry and really want to make sure i am in tune, i first use the tuner and then tune the banjo to itself  (relative tuning) .

i do think it is a good(very) idea to be able to tune you bajo to a single reference like a tuning fork or whatever a note from another player maybe, the same way it is a good idea to be able to do simple math without a calculator.

i like tuners because in a noisy enviroment it can be hard to hear plus they are in geneeral faster i think at least for me. i don't like the fact that i leave my tuner attached to my banjo almost all of the time because it looks ugly that way so at least in public i try and remenber to atke it off inbetween uses. i don't however think you should be dependant on it and teachers should teach their students to tune without them.

Pitch pipes are not accurate, it's like tuning to a harmonica, if the reeda are bent alittle or you blow it wrong it won;t be right certainlt tuning individual strings to the different pitckes on a pitch pipe will result in an out of tune instrument until you tune it to itself (relative tuning)

Definately for - 2 basic reasons on banjo 1) it saves time and your ear getting 'tired'/unable to distiguish the pitch 2) it finds problems in terms of something being 'out' but not sure what. Moreover it's also good to check intonation and if the bridge has moved/neck has moved.

FInally as a 12 string guitar player the word is 'thank god for tuners'. The necks and bodies on the good guitars are generally so interdependent on, and sensitive to, the pitch that even just a fraction out can be ugly and take real time to find.

for............Snark works well for me....have two