Another beginner question. I'm reading a lot about proper setup.  Can someone tell me what is the proper bridge placement  and from where should the measurement be taken. 

Also how would different bridge heights and weights affect playing.

Many thanks, Bud

The general rule is from nut to center of 12th fret and from center of 12th fret to bridge, this will get you in the ballpark from there you check each string by fretting at the 12th.

Here is what works for me: assuming that you have a quality banjo that is set up properly, you should place the bridge so that strings 1 and 4 are exactly in tune when you put a capo on. I have found that this method will also insure that you are noting true up the neck.  To get this right means that you may have to move the bridge less than 1mm at times to find the exact spot. Using the harmonic method that Larry suggested will get you close to where the final position will be. An accurate electronic tuner will help you find the final location.  I have released a video about changing capos quickly, but there is a also section that deals with finding the right spot for the bridge, which might help you. I discuss this at 2:37 into the video. Best of luck, Bud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_xO_wHnAz8

Thanks to you both. It was off just a bit, but now corrected. Many thanks and happy picking!! Bud

Check the 12th string fretted note against the 12 fret harmonic -- if the fretted note is flat, move it towards the neck, if it's sharp, move it towards the tailpiece.

Make sure the Banjo has fresh set of the gauge of strings you like, set the bridge and check all the open and fretted G notes across the entire fingerboard. When they all match ..you'll be in good shape.

When you match the fretted 12th fret notes to the open ones,you're done.

You mean to check the 12th fretted notes on strings 1 and 4 to the open notes on 1 and 4?

I don't know what a harmonic note is and don't understand how to tune it to open G tuning first if you don't know where to place the bridge to begin with.

Something isn't "clicking" for me.

I have a chart with all the G notes on it. But what direction would I move the bridge if a "G" note is off?

Initially place by measurement.  It should be about the same distance from the 12th fret as the 12th fret is from the nut, ie the 12th fret is halfway to the bridge.  

Then adjust the position based on the 12th fretted note.  Tune the string, and check the note at the 12th fret.  If the note is sharp, then move the bridge towards the tailpiece.  If flat, move the other way.  Depending on the strings and action height, it will likely end up being moved about 3/32" towards the tailpiece when finished.

You can set the position based on 2 strings by angling the  bridge as necessary.  If you use the 1st and 4th strings then typically the bridge is about straight and the 3rd string will be slightly sharp at the 12th fret, maybe 2-4 cents.  Or not, depending on the strings and action.  Large diameter 3rd strings will be sharper.  Something like .012 3rd will be closer to in-tune.

Then you read all about compensated bridges and decide it they are necessary with your banjo.  Don't need them with mine with 9.5, 11,12,20,9.5 strings (GHS Crowe Studio set.)

Gerry

Edited by - grm405 on 02/06/2012 10:27:35

quote:

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Originally posted by SReynolds

You mean to check the 12th fretted notes on strings 1 and 4 to the open notes on 1 and 4?

I don't know what a harmonic note is and don't understand how to tune it to open G tuning first if you don't know where to place the bridge to begin with.

Something isn't "clicking" for me.

I have a chart with all the G notes on it. But what direction would I move the bridge if a "G" note is off?

---

 Yes,Scott.

Compare the 12th fret fretted notes to them open .Use a tuner.

The 12th fret harmonics always exactly match the open notes no matter where the bridge is so using either 12th fret harmonics or open notes is the same.

When doing this comparison by ear it's easier to hear the 12th fret harmonic/12th fret fretted because they are in the same octave,but the tuner doesn't care which ones you use.

If the 12th fret fretted notes show sharp to the open comparisons,move the bridge toward the tailpiece.

If the 12th fret fretted notes are flat to the opens,move the bridge toward the neck.

When they compare the same,bridge is home.Mark the feet's head location with a pencil.

Edited by - steve davis on 02/06/2012 11:22:34

Ok. I'm going to print this off so I have it next to my music stand.

Thanks guys!!

I really enjoyed watching this video about supertuning.  It gets pretty specific at the beginning about bridge placement and other basic setup skills.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_xO_wHnAz8

Thanks Bryan. I appreciate the comments. The method seems to work for me!  But here are some additional thoughts about straight  vs compensated bridges, and also some of my probably incorrect theories!

My experience and resulting video have been with a straight bridge, but  with a straight bridge the intonation actually seems to improves with higher capo settings, most notably the third string (after tuning it, of course). My theory for this is that with the capo on, the action is diminished by a slight amount as you place the it further and further up the neck. Therefore, each string has less of a distance to travel, and therefore, notes truer.

In setting the bridge I think a secondary and tertiary measurement should be performed with the capo on to make sure that all the strings are perfectly in tune, in addition to the harmonic bridge setting method at open G that Steve mentioned. I know with a straight bridge if you can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune (not only with each other, but also individually with a tuner) at all capo settings, you will have the tuning fork (guide strings) that you need to stay in tune.

Here is a recent example of a banjo that I worked on: I could get 1 and 4 to be in tune at all settings except at the high C capo position. String 4 was 1 cent consistently sharp. Rotating the bridge less than 1mm FORWARD on the on the string 4 side solved it. Doesn't seem possible, but my theory is that the head became slightly lower that helped to zero it in. It is also interesting that such small movements of the bridge can solve such a profound problem.

I am interested to see what results could be gleaned using Steve's bridge. One question would be, if I can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune using his bridge at all capo settings, what happens to the rest of the strings? I only ask this, because in my past experience with a compensated bridge, string 2 seems to go noticeably flat and has to be raised.

quote:

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Originally posted by gospelman97

I really enjoyed watching this video about supertuning.  It gets pretty specific at the beginning about bridge placement and other basic setup skills.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_xO_wHnAz8

---

I used this method last week to test it, and it really does work very well.

At SPBGMA last year, I watch Dick Smith do a bridge setup...and it was an eye opener. He sets the bridge with the harmonic method, but then fine tunes the bridge to the neck by checking the same notes on different fretted strings, comparing them for accuracy. I guess the idea is that every neck will have its subtle idiosyncrasies. The man has an incredible set of ears because he took a banjo that was right on with harmonics and made it even MORE right on all over the neck.

At SPBGMA last year, I watch Dick Smith do a bridge setup...and it was an eye opener. He sets the bridge with the harmonic method, but then fine tunes the bridge to the neck by checking the same notes on different fretted strings, comparing them for accuracy. I guess the idea is that every neck will have its subtle idiosyncrasies. The man has an incredible set of ears because he took a banjo that was right on with harmonics and made it even MORE right on all over the neck.

---

Thanks, Dave

I would like to see him do that some day. It's far beyond what I do, but it sounds like an interesting technique!

Sometimes I think I must have been asleep or abducted by aliens into another dimension.

Checking the initial placement by harmonics and then tweaking it by checking the notes on different frets - isn't that the way we've done it since time immemorial? How else do you tune a banjo?

I think I must be missing something here.

check  at  the   12th,  and   19th.   

Nechville.  In  Higginsville.

Lee  Kelso

quote:

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Originally posted by donho-boy

Thanks Bryan. I appreciate the comments. The method seems to work for me!  But here are some additional thoughts about straight  vs compensated bridges, and also some of my probably incorrect theories!

My experience and resulting video have been with a straight bridge, but  with a straight bridge the intonation actually seems to improves with higher capo settings, most notably the third string (after tuning it, of course). My theory for this is that with the capo on, the action is diminished by a slight amount as you place the it further and further up the neck. Therefore, each string has less of a distance to travel, and therefore, notes truer.

In setting the bridge I think a secondary and tertiary measurement should be performed with the capo on to make sure that all the strings are perfectly in tune, in addition to the harmonic bridge setting method at open G that Steve mentioned. I know with a straight bridge if you can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune (not only with each other, but also individually with a tuner) at all capo settings, you will have the tuning fork (guide strings) that you need to stay in tune.

Here is a recent example of a banjo that I worked on: I could get 1 and 4 to be in tune at all settings except at the high C capo position. String 4 was 1 cent consistently sharp. Rotating the bridge less than 1mm FORWARD on the on the string 4 side solved it. Doesn't seem possible, but my theory is that the head became slightly lower that helped to zero it in. It is also interesting that such small movements of the bridge can solve such a profound problem.

I am interested to see what results could be gleaned using Steve's bridge. One question would be, if I can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune using his bridge at all capo settings, what happens to the rest of the strings? I only ask this, because in my past experience with a compensated bridge, string 2 seems to go noticeably flat and has to be raised.

---

When I got the bridge in position to where 1 and 4 were in tune, the other strings were dead on using Steves bridge. I like that bridge better than any that I have tried and I've tried quite a few.

quote:

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Originally posted by uncle.fogey

Sometimes I think I must have been asleep or abducted by aliens into another dimension.

Checking the initial placement by harmonics and then tweaking it by checking the notes on different frets - isn't that the way we've done it since time immemorial? How else do you tune a banjo?

I think I must be missing something here.

---

 Yes, alien abduction of banjo players is fairly common. Fortunately, they don't like banjo or bluegrass music, preferring Disco from the 70's.

My point was harmonics are a step in bridge placement, but as Dick Smith did, checking it against the frets is important also....something I've seen some not do. I suppose if fret placement on a neck was perfect, it wouldn't be necessary...but I have yet to see a perfect neck. 

I'm still working onthis.......

I found that when fretting the strings at 12, they are all very very sharp. So, I moved the bridge towards tail. Then moved it more. And still more. Nothing happening here.

I measured the distance then. It is now 13 and almost 3/16 inch from nut to center of #12. Then the measurement from center of #12 to the leading edge of my bridge is 13 and 1/16 inch.

Do I move it still more, towards the tail???????? I just had this particular banjo set up with new strings. What gives here???

I think when your bridge is in the proper position, depending on your action height, neck relief, head tension, & string gauge, the distance between the 12th fret and your bridge will be somewhere around 1/8" to 3/16" longer than the distance between the nut & 12th fret.

In other words, yes, move it further back.

quote:

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Originally posted by SReynolds

I'm still working onthis.......

I found that when fretting the strings at 12, they are all very very sharp. So, I moved the bridge towards tail. Then moved it more. And still more. Nothing happening here.

I measured the distance then. It is now 13 and almost 3/16 inch from nut to center of #12. Then the measurement from center of #12 to the leading edge of my bridge is 13 and 1/16 inch.

Do I move it still more, towards the tail???????? I just had this particular banjo set up with new strings. What gives here???

---

 ...as it was before you started moving your bridge, and always will be.

Perhaps THIS will help.  Scroll down to "SETTING INTONATION" toward the bottom of the page.

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncle.fogey

Sometimes I think I must have been asleep or abducted by aliens into another dimension.

Checking the initial placement by harmonics and then tweaking it by checking the notes on different frets - isn't that the way we've done it since time immemorial? How else do you tune a banjo?

I think I must be missing something here.

---

 Ken, You are 100% correct, but what you're missing the ever-present "refinement gap" that exists between relatively new players and those that have a bit more experience with setting up an instrument.  I've noticed the range of participants in any given topic is often so wide that there are folks that need help figuring out if the bridge feet should be oriented facing up or down, while at the same time there are posters who desire to pass on information that is way beyond the information level that is needed by the original poster's question.

If you're new enough to not understand the mechanics of bridge placement then it may be a little too much to understand the finer points of the 12TET western music system.  My explanation is somewhat beyond the simple mechanics of bridge positioning as explained HERE if anyone is interested. 

If the 12th fret fretted note is sharp to the 12th fret harmonic the bridge gets moved toward the tailpiece.
If you move it too far toward the tailpiece the fretted 12th fret note will become flat to the harmonic at the 12th fret.
The right spot is where the comparisons agree.
It's just that simple.

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoman56

quote:

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Originally posted by donho-boy

Thanks Bryan. I appreciate the comments. The method seems to work for me!  But here are some additional thoughts about straight  vs compensated bridges, and also some of my probably incorrect theories!

My experience and resulting video have been with a straight bridge, but  with a straight bridge the intonation actually seems to improves with higher capo settings, most notably the third string (after tuning it, of course). My theory for this is that with the capo on, the action is diminished by a slight amount as you place the it further and further up the neck. Therefore, each string has less of a distance to travel, and therefore, notes truer.

In setting the bridge I think a secondary and tertiary measurement should be performed with the capo on to make sure that all the strings are perfectly in tune, in addition to the harmonic bridge setting method at open G that Steve mentioned. I know with a straight bridge if you can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune (not only with each other, but also individually with a tuner) at all capo settings, you will have the tuning fork (guide strings) that you need to stay in tune.

Here is a recent example of a banjo that I worked on: I could get 1 and 4 to be in tune at all settings except at the high C capo position. String 4 was 1 cent consistently sharp. Rotating the bridge less than 1mm FORWARD on the on the string 4 side solved it. Doesn't seem possible, but my theory is that the head became slightly lower that helped to zero it in. It is also interesting that such small movements of the bridge can solve such a profound problem.

I am interested to see what results could be gleaned using Steve's bridge. One question would be, if I can get strings 1 and 4 to be in tune using his bridge at all capo settings, what happens to the rest of the strings? I only ask this, because in my past experience with a compensated bridge, string 2 seems to go noticeably flat and has to be raised.

---

When I got the bridge in position to where 1 and 4 were in tune, the other strings were dead on using Steves bridge. I like that bridge better than any that I have tried and I've tried quite a few.

---

I have had the same experience with Steve's bridge on 3 different banjos now -- all with different scale lengths. Once the bridge is set properly, the banjo plays in tune, whether capo'ed or not.

I use one of Mr. Hatfield's compensated bridges and have also found that the banjo stays in tune when I put on the capo.  I linked the youtube video before because I enjoyed the part about bridge placement.  He did more than check the harmonics.  He put the capo on the second fret to see if the strings went flat or sharp, made an adjustment, then repeated the process by trying the capo at the 4th fret.  I found it very informative.