So. I couldn't really find anything specific on here, so I have this question:

Where do you luthiers or hobbyists buy or find your old wood. In may case, I'm looking for older than dirt maple. 
 

Thanks.

Derek, interesting question.  Our newspaper had an article a couple years ago about companies who were harvesting the submerged logs in the Columbia River between Oregon/Washington.  The logs sank 100 plus years ago when they used the Columbia to float logs downstream to the mills.  They found that the logs were in pristine condition being underwater that long and these were old growth clear timber.  Just for fun, I Googled "submerged timber Oregon" and came up with several articles that have been written about the subject.  You may want to do the same and research it out a bit and possibly call some of the small mills that are mentioned to determine who sells old recovered wood.  I suspect that most of the submerged timber would consist of Douglas Fir (very common here) but in those days, they probably harvested Maple also.  Hope this helps in your search.  I can almost envision a maple banjo slowly working its way down the Columbia:).   Joe

I think one of the companies from Canada that reclaims this wood from the Great Lakes was featured on Dirty Jobs.

Tim

The company that discovered and started it all is Timeless Timber. Scott

Edited by - desert rose on 02/01/2012 00:12:28

Where you are in Merriam, Kansas is close to the national source for structrural beams, like century-old or more, there is a yard and company in Kansas City. Missouri, that is.

There was an all-hangout project in 2009 with a Chestnut banjo from 150- year old beams from Ohio, I made the rim in Az., neck and rez from Ky, bridge from Tx and assembly in Ohio all from the same Chestnut.

Otherwise look for old tables, cabinets, pianos, be ruthless, no more macaroni and cheese, cut up some furniture. Trunk and large limb are available from landscapers, door jambs from remodelers, cabinet fronts and sills. I'm talkin' 1x12 50- year old Mahogany.

All of these creatures called trees have their own predators from mold to beetles to termites to us. Use the best of it, do your best work, the wood is still alive, be respectful, plant new trees.

Alder and Birch are cousins, the Maple you are seeking exists, watch for spalting mold.

Submerged wood is only one way to do this.

A barn beam that is heated and cooled daily and frozen and scorched seasonally 150 times is pretty well cured by the time I get it. I played my Chestnut on stage two weeks ago. Alive and well.

Oak is the first to 'call' termites. Sends a signal, I'm ready, yoo hoos.

Remember in 1980? You weren't alive then, always wanted to say that. They had to log the beaches of Oregon from Mount St. Helens' eruption.

There is a company in New Zealand digging wood from Peat Bogs which has been carbon dated to 40,000 years old+

I have some pieces. It is interesting stuff.

Ancientwood.com

is a source although not the digger of the wood.

ken

Recovered submerged wood has found it's way into a few banjos. Stelling made a few banjos that were constructed of this type of wood. Do not recall the name Stelling called these banjos, but I remember they had a blue-ish color.

quote:

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Originally posted by derekanjo

Where do you luthiers or hobbyists buy or find your old wood. In may case, I'm looking for older than dirt maple. 

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My question would be "Why bother?"   

Stability issues aside  -and older woods do tend to be more stable-  the age of the woods used in banjos has pretty much zero effect on the tonality anyhow.

~Pete

that's funny, you don't look bluish.

Im not a fan of Submerged wood, for bridges or rims, generally. I look for really well dried and stored lumber that has been cut like the woods the  builders used back 'in the day'. Those virgin forests produced woods that are some of the best on earth, imo.  There are many sources for older timer, and you can look the topic up here on the BHO and on the web. Sometimes I'll find great old timber in my own home area, thats been 'hiding' in plain sight.

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My question would be "Why bother?"   

Stability issues aside  -and older woods do tend to be more stable-  the age of the woods used in banjos has pretty much zero effect on the tonality anyhow.

~Pete

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That's one opinion. I think aged wood is superior to new wood , as far as tonal characteristics go. Bridge builders routinely choose older woods for a reason.  The real thing to point out is the O.P. asked for sources for 'old wood'. So, he's 'bothering' to look. As Yoda said.."there is no why"...

Courtesy of another Banjo Hangout member, I have enough old maple to do two to four pots.  The wood came from a basketball court that was being removed.  Tear down a hundred year old building, and get hundred year old wood.

Don

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

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My question would be "Why bother?"   

Stability issues aside  -and older woods do tend to be more stable-  the age of the woods used in banjos has pretty much zero effect on the tonality anyhow.

~Pete

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That's one opinion. I think aged wood is superior to new wood , as far as tonal characteristics go. Bridge builders routinely choose older woods for a reason.  

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 I said "the wood used in banjos", not "the wood used in banjo bridges".

And I'd just love to see a few double-blind tests done to find out what percentage of listeners could consistently tell the difference between identical banjos made of relatively recent  maple and 100-year-old wood.

Despite the myriad of urban myths going around out there, my guess is that the figure would be exactly zero.    (And that's a guess based on 50+ years of building, listening to, and playing banjos.)

~Pete

The submerged recovered woods used in banjos and other instruments from the Great Lake4s are FAR AND AWAY MORE stable than ANY modern harvested wood, thats a hard cold fact, and not open to debate

Whether for rims in banjos or necks in any string instrument this is so and years ago we had the wood tested by a national testing agency ( read that no interest whether good or bad) and the govt testing agency confirmed these points with scientific repeatable data

Since then we have built or been involved in building THOUSANDS of string instruments with this wood in the necks and the results speak for themselves, its STABLE

Scott

"There ain't no facts on a banjo, you just play it!"

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 I said "the wood used in banjos", not "the wood used in banjo bridges".

And I'd just love to see a few double-blind tests done to find out what percentage of listeners could consistently tell the difference between identical banjos made of relatively recent  maple and 100-year-old wood.

Despite the myriad of urban myths going around out there, my guess is that the figure would be exactly zero.    (And that's a guess based on 50+ years of building, listening to, and playing banjos.)

~Pete

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I was guessing that wood used in banjos covers about all of the instrument. Builders given the choice of 'new' wood and  '100 year old wood', my guess would be they would prefer the 100 year old stuff. Thats based on 40 years of banjo experience, but I will have to defer to you, since you have me by 10 years,haha.

I don't see it as any 'urban myth', since there's always been builders and luthiers who have chosen vintage woods as the preference. Stablity is definitely part of the choice, but  'sound' would have to play an equal part in it, wouldn't it ? I mean seriously, do you think  given the choice of some fantastic 100 year old maple, and some thats 5 years old, most builders would choose the 5 year old stuff, because theres no real value in the 'old stuff'? 

My choice would be to have all the great old wood I could get. If no one but me believes its worth a hoot , it wont change my opinion of it as a very valuable resource.  I think the myth part comes from folks thinking the builders from years past went out looking for old growth because it was better than new. My thinking is that they used it because the stuff we call old growth virgin timber was what they called 'wood'. This was their regular supply. Now, that's the stuff is almost gone and has aged another generation, we realize that what was common place to them is pretty special stuff to us now.

But Ive read about the old builders looking for an using 'vintage' wood and coveting the sources of it. So, apparently many builders a century and more ago thought enough of 'old wood' that they used it and coveted it. Maybe that was a 'urban' legend even then,haha. They could have has the same discussions about it then as we are now, who knows.

Oh,well, its fun to talk about anyway. Speaking for myself, I'll take all the great 100 year old wood I can afford and use it. You can have all the new wood you want.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 02/01/2012 17:31:38

I see two major facts about old woods that mean different things to wood workers.

One of the kewl things about old-growth logs (which is what most of the sunken lumber was since it was part of the first cutting of America) is that they have nice straight grain and are really, really big. That's independent of whether they were sunken or not.

If they were sunken under cold water for a lengthy period, changes occur in the wood and sunken wood is 'stiffer' than unsunken wood of the same type.
You could sink new logs today in Lake Superior and they would undergo the same changes but they wouldn't be old-growth logs.

And if you want really, really hard and really, really old wood, check out Arizona's Petrified Forest.

Here are some interesting facts from Aqua Timber up here north of Toronto. Lots of info on their website.

Aqua Timber produces environmentally-friendly wood products using “old-growth” timbers recovered from the depths of Georgian Bay, the Great Lakes and other waterway’s throughout North America. The timber that we recover began growing between 1000 and 1500 AD and was harvested from the 1850s to the early 1900s. When you include the last 150 years that it has spent below the water’s surface our wood ranges between 500 to 1,000 years old.

I agree with John 100%....."Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.....oh....and your OLD wood....

Tim

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic
 

I was guessing that wood used in banjos covers about all of the instrument. Builders given the choice of 'new' wood and  '100 year old wood', my guess would be they would prefer the 100 year old stuff. Thats based on 40 years of banjo experience, but I will have to defer to you, since you have me by 10 years,haha.

I don't see it as any 'urban myth', since there's always been builders and luthiers who have chosen vintage woods as the preference. Stablity is definitely part of the choice, but  'sound' would have to play an equal part in it, wouldn't it ? I mean seriously, do you think  given the choice of some fantastic 100 year old maple, and some thats 5 years old, most builders would choose the 5 year old stuff, because theres no real value in the 'old stuff'? 

My choice would be to have all the great old wood I could get. If no one but me believes its worth a hoot , it wont change my opinion of it as a very valuable resource.  I think the myth part comes from folks thinking the builders from years past went out looking for old growth because it was better than new. My thinking is that they used it because the stuff we call old growth virgin timber was what they called 'wood'. This was their regular supply. Now, that's the stuff is almost gone and has aged another generation, we realize that what was common place to them is pretty special stuff to us now.

But Ive read about the old builders looking for an using 'vintage' wood and coveting the sources of it. So, apparently many builders a century and more ago thought enough of 'old wood' that they used it and coveted it. Maybe that was a 'urban' legend even then,haha. They could have has the same discussions about it then as we are now, who knows.

Oh,well, its fun to talk about anyway. Speaking for myself, I'll take all the great 100 year old wood I can afford and use it. You can have all the new wood you want.

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 The only woods used in a banjo proper are in the pot, the resonator, and the neck; and -stability aside- the age of the woods used for those purposes has no demonstrated bearing on the resulting tonality of the finished product.

That is not true of instruments such as violins, guitars, and mandolins where almost the entire instrument is made of wood, and the types of woods used in the construction of the body can and do have quite a bit of influence on the instrument's tonality.   But the reason that they have more influence on tonality is that the different woods resonate / interact with the soundboard in differing ways.   And even with that being said; every guitar builder knows that it's the top  -the soundboard itself-  that is responsible for circa 90% of a wooden instrument's tonality.   The differences in the sides, back, and neck woods provide the seasoning, but the soundboard provides the entree.

With a banjo, however, the soundboard is the head; and the woods in the pot, neck, and resonator don't interact with it to anything like the degree they do on -say- a guitar.  So claiming that "the old builders" were known to value older woods means nothing unless you can document the fact that banjo builders such as Stewart, Gibson, and Vega actually tried to obtain and use these woods in their instruments -and that it made a quantifiable difference in the tone of instruments that used those woods.   

Until that happens, the "older wood sounds better in banjos" bit will remain an urban myth -along with all the other unproven assertions such as "prewars are the holy grail" and the other hundred and one things that everybody 'knows' are true- but which nobody has ever bothered to check against objective reality.

~Pete

quote:

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Originally posted by Deaf Lester Crawdad

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 The only woods used in a banjo proper are in the pot, the resonator, and the neck; and -stability aside- the age of the woods used for those purposes has no demonstrated bearing on the resulting tonality of the finished product.

That is not true of instruments such as violins, guitars, and mandolins where almost the entire instrument is made of wood, and the types of woods used in the construction of the body can and do have quite a bit of influence on the instrument's tonality.   But the reason that they have more influence on tonality is that the different woods resonate / interact with the soundboard in differing ways.   And even with that being said; every guitar builder knows that it's the top  -the soundboard itself-  that is responsible for circa 90% of a wooden instrument's tonality.   The differences in the sides, back, and neck woods provide the seasoning, but the soundboard provides the entree.

With a banjo, however, the soundboard is the head; and the woods in the pot, neck, and resonator don't interact with it to anything like the degree they do on -say- a guitar.  So claiming that "the old builders" were known to value older woods means nothing unless you can document the fact that banjo builders such as Stewart, Gibson, and Vega actually tried to obtain and use these woods in their instruments -and that it made a quantifiable difference in the tone of instruments that used those woods.   

Until that happens, the "older wood sounds better in banjos" bit will remain an urban myth -along with all the other unproven assertions such as "prewars are the holy grail" and the other hundred and one things that everybody 'knows' are true- but which nobody has ever bothered to check against objective reality.

~Pete

 

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I understand guitar construction and how it differs from Banjo construction and yes, a guitar top is the sound board, as the head is for the banjo. Saying the wood used in the rim and neck dont' interact with the pot assembly exactly as a guitar side and neck, is logical, obviously, since these are two completely different instruments. But I can say that  the woods used in the banjos neck and rim have a direct impact on tone and response. The impact can be dramatic. The banjos rim is the engine , in my opinion, and the wood makes a critical impact.  If I had access to 150 year old maple for a rim build, and the choice was that, or 5 year old stuff, guess which one I would prefer.

The whole 'holy grail' topic is something I'll just pass on as it seems you wish to tie all this up into 'old wood isnt any good 'and 'old Mastertones didnt have any impact on bluegrass banjo'.  You can think both old wood and old Mastertones are bunk and I respect your views. I think you're dead wrong, but it's no big deal. AsIve said before, I'll keep looking for great old wood and I'll definitely keep playing my prewar Gibson. I know, I know, Im deluded, but I like being in this altered reality cause it sure sounds great in there,haha.

Im out and I enjoyed the discussion!

Edited by - Banjophobic on 02/01/2012 20:57:16

I  have  some  hard  maple  flooring  from  a  shoe  factory  built  in  1921,  I  worked  at the  same  factory  in  1954.   Very old  and  seasoned.   

Nechville. In  Higginsville.

Lee  Kelso

Edited by - pick1936 on 02/01/2012 21:04:36

"Whether for rims in banjos or necks in any string instrument this is so and years ago we had the wood tested by a national testing agency ( read that no interest whether good or bad) and the govt testing agency confirmed these points with scientific repeatable data"

The spirit of the forum is such that curiousity will get the better of us if things aren't clearly explained. I would like to see further data, was it a nat'l agency or a govt. agency, and what data was repeatable?? No further discussion allowed is a little heavy, no?

Otherwise, like ALUMINUM at Davis-Monthan airbase, it's all above ground and ready to mine.

I get my excellent,very old(1860) air-dried maple from my carpenter friends who renovate very old buildings and barns.

The genetics of maple trees probably hasn't changed much if any in the last 500 years. My first rims were from 100 year old sugar maple cause that's when my house was built and that's what the floors are and that's what the carpenters left bundles of in the attic. It looked like maple, cut like maple, and smelled like maple. When I rap on those rims, they sound just like rims made of “new” maple to me. I can crawl around on my floors and study old maple all day long. There is birds eye, curly, tight grain, wide grain, different colors, all that stuff. But I can pull boards out of my maple stash accumulated over the last 10 to 20 years and find all the same characteristics.

When it comes to tone woods I believe the most influential components are density and stiffness. I believe you can find new wood matching the characteristics found in about any piece of old wood – heck, it’s still wood and there are as many variations board to board today as 100 years ago. So I ask what is old wood? 30, 40, 50, 100 years old, pre-war wood, what? Scientists ought to be able to measure some chemical or structural difference in old and new maple if there are any, but where’s the data? About every 6 months some new group finds the “secret of Stradivarius” and then 6 months later someone else does, but their findings always have a lot of “maybe’s” and “appears” in them for some inconclusive reason.

Some part of what makes a particular banjo sound good might be the luck of the draw, which board it ended up being made of. There are particularly good sounding old banjos just as there are particularly good sounding new banjos. And there were banjos that didn’t sound so hot back then, just as now. I select my wood by how it looks and feels and how it sounds when I hit it and what I am shooting for in the end product. I personally like to keep my instrument wood around for 5-10 years, beyond that, I don’t care how old it is and age doesn’t play a part in my selection process. Older aged, larger diameter trees provide greater sawing options to a mill and can provide a higher percentage of high quality lumber per tree but that does not preclude finding high quality lumber at mills today, if you look for it. There is nothing wrong with good old wood but there is nothing wrong or different about good new wood.

There's my 2 cents for what it's worth -

Post 2 -

Submerged wood is a different animal and most likely uptakes and assimilates dissolved solids available in natural water sources. That process along with microbial activity would change wood characteristics in ways much different from wood stored in air. Scott mentioned nat’l – gov – testing – agency, I’d have to guess, but it almost must be Dept of Agriculture, U.S. Forest Service, Forest Products Laboratory, since they are responsible for forest products laboratories and research. They usually publish any significant data, I’d love to see the science of submerged wood too. Can you give us any direction, links to documentation Scott?

I spent a fair amount of time looking for Forest Service documents but can't find anything yet but gov sites are usually tedious to search. There is a local USDA lab near me, maybe I'll call them tomorrow.

Thanks Brian