I just bought an Orpheum #1 tenor banjo SN 2040.
To me, that is a very low (early) serial number.
Orpheum (Rettberg & Lange) first advertised their
"tango banjo" in 1916 (from a search of The Cadenza).

I'd like to date this banjo.

Does anyone have an Orpheum (four or five string) with
a lower or concurrent serial number?

I have an Orpheum #1 5-string, s/n 1743. However, as records do not give dates of serial numbers by year, it is almost impossible to date the banjo. All I've done is take the total numbers (about 3000), the median year (all Orpheums are dated c. 1915), and conclude that my banjo would be, maybe, 1915-17. But that's just a guess.

Paul R -
As I understand it someone has seen an Orpheum catalog
circa 1915 and according to Reese thereafter sellers began
dating Orpheums as ca. 1915. Well, I can tell you that Rettberg
& Lange were making and advertising Orpheum banjos well before 1915.
I have been reading The Cadenza magazines I got on microfilm
and Orpheum is adverising their 5-strings in July 1909 (the earliest
The Cadenza I have) and probably much before. Your Orpheum
is very early I think. Does it have a tag on the dowel that says
"Orpheum"?
Sure wish there was some way to date Orpheums by serial number.
This is a major brand that somehow did not kindle someone's interest
to do serial number research like the Vega/Fairbanks and Bacon brands.

I wish I could see that catalogue!

The reason for dating Orpheums to 1915 - as I understand it - is that it's the median year. Rettberg & Lange were indeed making Orpheums before 1915, but 1915 is given as a "default" designation because serial numbers can't be verified as to year of manufacture. We can trace Martin guitars, for example, because records match serial numbers to date of manufacture. Such isn't the case with Orpheums. If you look at the Orpheums on the "Bill's Banjos" Web site, you'll see that he dates all of them to circa 1915. I doubt that collectors would base dates on a single catalogue.

I date my Orpheum to 1915-1917 as a rough estimation based on the total of about 3000 banjos under the Orpheum name. I put number 1500 to the year 1915 by this admittedly crude calculation. We can't tell how many banjos were made in any particular year. It's entirely possible that more were made in the earlier years (remember that World War I lasted from 1914 to 1918 - 1917-1918 for the U.S.A. - and lower production in those years would be a possibility). I agree that it would be great to date them, but, almost a hundred years later, I doubt that such records exist, and the original owners certainly aren't around any more, either! I think Rettberg & Lange took over Buckbee before 1900, but I'll have to double check that.

Yes, my Orpheum has the dowel label, as well as one inside the rim that says "made by - Rettberg & Lange - New York City" (three lines). Lettering is in blue for both labels. The serial number is on the dowel stick. Stamped inside the rim, near the R&L label, is "patented - 724933" (as well as I can make it out right now).

I can still take pleasure - as I'm sure you do - in owning a fine, well made historical instrument. We had a member a little while back who said he had a chance to get an old Orpheum and then said he was considering changing the tone ring. He was strongly advised not to, and I hope he keeps it in original condition. I'm impressed with my Number 1. Considering that it's the bottom of the line, it's a great piece of work! Have fun with your Orpheum, too, no matter what its year of manufacture.

If you find out any more information, I'd be grateful if you'd pass it on. The more I learn about my instruments, the better. I can do the same if you'd like.

Paul:
I think the "Orpheum" tag on the dowel is significant for dating purposes.
I like the Orpheums so I look when I see on on the web or elsewhere.
That "Orpheum" tag on the dowel is not common as far as my experience.
Somewhere in the teens R&L discontinued using that tag.
Maybe when they started their contract with Bruno?
We'll have to be alert to Orpheums with and without the dowel tag.
Maybe that will lead us somewhere??

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Paul:
I think the "Orpheum" tag on the dowel is significant for dating purposes.
I like the Orpheums so I look when I see on on the web or elsewhere.
That "Orpheum" tag on the dowel is not common as far as my experience.
Somewhere in the teens R&L discontinued using that tag.
Maybe when they started their contract with Bruno?
We'll have to be alert to Orpheums with and without the dowel tag.
Maybe that will lead us somewhere??

---

When looking at Orpheums I ignor Lange models.
This is from memory - In early 1922 Lange acquired Rettberg's
interest in R&L. I found an article in Music Trade Review that
stated Rettberg was in ill health and retired.

I did some internet sleuthing and looked at Orpheums with
the R&L tags and jotted serial numbers. Then I looked at Orpheums
with Wm. L. Lange tags and jotted serial numbers I could.

I am satisfied that R&L banjos were made into the very early 1920's
and that firm's serial numbers stopped at about 14XXX. The Wm. L.
Lange successor company continued the serial number sequence. So,
if you see an Orpheum mid-14XXX it could be either company. But, when
you get to, say, 14,9XX and above, that is a Wm. Lange Orpheum not
a Rettberg & Lange banjo.

I wanted an R&L Orpheum tenor from the 1920's. I had to settle for
Orpheum No. 1 SN 12161 which I think is probably 1919 on its best day.
But, it was available and affordable so I got it as it was close enough
for gov't work. Would have loved an Orpheum tenor with the R&L tag
and a serial number number 139XX. But, I'm glad I got close.

Now, I have coming in mail Orpheum No. 1 tenor SN 2040. I'm very much
bummed because I think the banjo has been tampered with an not
original tone ring. But, I am a sucker for serial numbers and always get
in trouble chasing them.

I have a #3 Special original 5-string with the red/white/blue "Orpheum made by Rettberg & Lang, New York. plate on the rim and a grained ivoroid C.Bruno and Son plate on the dowel stick. S/N is 15503 so they must have gone beyond 14000 as R&L.

Here's a bit more, which you probably already know:

R&L acquired Buckbee around 1897. R&L split about 1921 with Lange continuing the Orpheum manufacture. I now see that the 5-strings were supposedly numbered to 3000, with tenors 3000 and up.

But that contradicts with some serial numbers I've seen, such as a 5-string No. 3 with serial number 13406 and a 5-string No. 1 with serial number 13486, as well as your tenor 2040. With numbers that high, my No. 1 would probably be pre-1915. Also, over time tenors became more popular and 5-strings less so, thus pushing 5-strings to earlier dates, but this is just speculation. I guess that your 2040 would be fairly early, too.

It seems as though their numbering system was quite bizarre!

There are other banjos which were made by R&L and marketed under other names. banjo manufacturers seemed to do a fair bit of this. Some of them were sold under names of banjo teachers. with students needing banjos it would be a pretty good source of extra income.
You can sometimes tell the R&L ones by that distinctive five-ply neck or by the heel shape.

I didn't chase serial numbers when I bought mine - I just needed a frailing banjo and that's what was in the shop at the time! It doesn't have a lot of volume, but it has a sweet, mellow tone for clawhammer. It is, however, a bit of a challenge for ease of playing (string spacing).

It's a funny thing about old banjos. Recently I was in the Twelfth Fret in Toronto to (finally) get a decent case for the Orpheum. I picked up a few banjos and tried them out. By far the best sounding one was an old Windsor - British, probably early 20th century. It was also the cheapest one that I tried - way, way, way cheaper.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stevec

I have a #3 Special original 5-string with the red/white/blue "Orpheum made by Rettberg & Lang, New York. plate on the rim and a grained ivoroid C.Bruno and Son plate on the dowel stick. S/N is 15503 so they must have gone beyond 14000 as R&L.

---

FYI, mine's an Orph. #3 tenor, sn 11485; Orpheum (red letters)- R&L label on rim, Bruno label on dowel. Glad to see this discussion. I hope someone is keeping track...it would be nice to figger this out.
BT

Stevec-
Holy Cow. Your banjo really throws things into the fog.
I looked at an Orpheum No. 1 tenor on ebay when I was
doing my checking. It was SN 14979 with a Wm. L. Lange
Orpheum tag on the rim.
Now, whatever will we do???

Furthermore, in my experience very few Bruno tagged Orpheums
have serial numbers. 20% maybe. I wonder if your 15XXX was
tagged with a holdover R&L tag due to some kind of compensation
deal Lange had with Rettberg about banjos going to Bruno. Maybe
Rettberg was the originator of the contract with Bruno and was to
receive some $ for banjos going there???

Think about it...Paramounts did not go to Bruno. Did they????

Edited by - beezaboy on 03/20/2010 14:50:07

Here is a Wm. L. Lange tagged Orpheum SN 15452.
I've also seen the Lange tag on SN 14979.

Stevec's 15503 is really quite surprising and difficult to
explain.

However, generalizing, I would still say when you get
to 149XX it is more likely a Lange not a Rettberg & Lange.

See: Open Back 5-string inventory #5693.
intermountainguitarandbanjo.com/

Here is a photo of the two tags for comparison on this Lange Orpheum:
banjoworld.de/High113.htm

Edited by - beezaboy on 03/21/2010 05:13:09

Here is a look at the "Orpheum" tag on the dowel that
seems to have been discontinued and may be a clue to
dating older Orpheums...
This is SN 4460 (an oldie!)
musurgia.com/products.asp?Prod...892282010

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Here is a look at the "Orpheum" tag on the dowel that seems to have been discontinued and may be a clue to dating older Orpheums...
This is SN 4460 (an oldie!)
musurgia.com/products.asp?Prod...892282010

---

Boy am I gnawing this bone!

Another thing - The early Rettberg & Lange banjos had a
black/white R & L New York tag. The red/white/blue tags shown
above came later.

Another clue.

Just checked and can post these important:

FACTOIDS:

1. Rettberg & Lange formed Wednesday, Sept. 22, 1897.
Purchased Buckbee plant, machinery and stock.

2. Wm. Lange purchased sole ownership of Rettberg & Lange, April 4-15, 1921.
Wm. P. Rettberg in ill health.

Thanks BTuno for your number and description.
You are mainstream.

We need serial numbers and R&L tag descriptions.

I'm starting another thread in case people don't read this far.

Edited by - beezaboy on 03/21/2010 09:55:25

Here's my #1 plectrum ser. #13528, with Bruno label on the dowel stick &"Orpheum made by Rettburg & Lange NY" on the inside of the rim:

Good to see you working so hard on the Orpheums, Beeze.

I hope you have plenty of health insurance... 'Cause the Lange stuff will drive you
absolutely nuts. That's why I never delved into it -- even though I have a sweet
spot for Orpheums, and Paramounts.

Interesting reading...

Best--
Ed Britt

Thanks Mainejohn. Based on hypothesis (Red R&L tag - SN lower than 139XX)
you are mainstream. Your banjo built before R&L dissoluntion in mid April, 1921.

Here is an Orpheum Melody Banjo.
SN 9257.
Rettberg & Lange red/white/blue tag

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT

Hi Ed Britt!
So far Orpheums are more gratifying than Gretsch.
At least the serial numbers appear to be consecutive.

Curious that no one has tackled Orpheum dating given
that R&L then Lange were producing this brand for
quite a long while.

This is a great thread I have wondered about this off and on over the 30 years I've owned my Orpheum. In looking over the various photo's around the web I have a couple more observations about my banjo that probably are part of the picture. At any rate my #3 Special s/n 15503 has a badge on the dowel with only 2 lines of text:

"C. Bruno & Son, Inc. - w/o the "Distributors" in the middle line.
New York"

This may point to a date in the Bruno & Son, Inc. history that could possibly establish a date at R&L.

Also my banjo is fitted with the optional Page Geared tuners which are featured on page 11 of the "Orpheum and Langstile Banjos" catalog reprint published by Mugwumps. These appear original to my banjo. The catalog is from after the R&L period so I have always figured my Banjo was just before or just after the break-up (w/ an old R&L tag). The other difference between my #3 Special and ones that I believe are earlier is that mine has 22 frets w/o fingerboard extension and a scale length that is shorter than most of the banjos with f/b extensions at 26.25". I believe many of the ones with f/b extensions are 27"+.

Interestingly, many of the Orpheum 5 strings with fingerboard extensions differ also. The John Hartford #3 Special pictured in "Acoustic Guitar and other Fretted Instruments" Gruhn & Carter has a f/b extension with 3 frets and no inlay. Charlie Poole's #3 Special and the one Tom Paley holds in the early NLCR photo's are similar, but Poole's has 22 frets with 2 frets and one inlay on the extension while Paley's extension appears shorter with only the inlay and the last of 22 frets on the f/b extension. The #3 Mac Benford played with Highwoods appears to have only 21 frets barely an extension after the last inlay. Did it originally have more of an extension with the 22nd fret?

Lastly, the post Rettberg banjos like the Super Orpheum #3 from Banjo World pictured earlier in this tread are almost hybrid Orpheum/Paramounts. They exhibit characteristics of both w/ inlays from both Paramount and Orpheum and changes like the Paramount style stop on the back of the neck just before the peghead and other Paramount advances like resonators etc.

Steve

Steve -
I am looking at my "Orpheum and Langstile Banjos" catalog. It is undated.

Anyway, look at Lange's letter on last page where he says the banjo has
been closest to his heart "for nearly a score and a half of years".

He bought Buckbee with Rettberg Sept 22, 1897 + 24 years 5 mos = Feb. 1922.

Your banjo has the tuners option from that catalog (and it is high-grade).

Therefore, as you have concluded, your banjo is probably a Lange circa
February 1922.

How can the R&L tag be explained?
My guess = A contract signed with Bruno before the buy-out for a number
certain of Orpheum banjos specified your R&L and Bruno tags. Lange was completingthat contract and built a batch of Orpheums for delivery to Bruno and tagged them according to the contract. At the same time Lange was building Orpheums under the Lange banner and they got the new Wm. L. Lange tags. Serial numbers were consecutive and the workers stamped them consecutively as they were made.

Kind of makes sense but there is always the element of speculation

Edited by - beezaboy on 03/21/2010 15:28:37

What about parts? My # 1743 has an Elite tailpiece (with the two rows of knobs), and there were at least two variations on the basic design that I know of. Would there be a chance that some rudimentary form of dating can come from the parts on the banjos? Just thinkin'. After all, we're looking at labels, parts can give clues, too.

Now and then everbody has a bad day....................