Ok, I have been slapping at this thing for years and years. I do some things well and others things "foggy mountain roll" I just blew right passed and developed my own thing. Here I am years later limping along. So my question for you seasoned pickers is:

Do I go page to page mastering every lick and song in Mr. Scruggs book?

Do I keep learning and tripping though songs I dig off Youtube?

Focus on licks? Scales? My own thing??

I do not have the money for an instructor nor to much time. Maybe 45 to an hour a day due to season of life (3 young kids).

I am just having a hard time staying with one thing and I am all over the place. Adult ADD? Probably but I like it all and want to learn it all.

Talk to me folks, I would love to hear your feed back. The good the bad and the ugly!

Blessings to ya!


Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  20:37:10      

Sounds to me like your brain hasnt went through the proper steps to process what you hear correctly. The transfer of certain info has to happen automatically on a couple different levels and those are dependent on how you first precieved the whole anatomy of a banjo break from , how roll configs (not whole rolls) are supposed to work, how melody spawns from them, how tag, lick ,filler, vamp, phrases work in an arrangement and their differences.IMO, reading more isnt gonna help ya. Im sure youve understood and done everything youve read thus far? Im mean, playin since 89, your exposure to everything by now has certain concepts and systems (old Jack H title from BNL) for better or worse, in place. Ive had quite a few students starting in the late 90s who developed this syndrome of wanting to play every new tune that tickled their fancy and thought becuase they liked it so well and tab was readily available to feed the LUST, they would get it....NOT!.....The ones who never went back to square one and actually learned to PLAY with the right mental principles in place ,like I would suggest ,either gave up or are about the same place they were in 97 still tryin to play on a concious level....I would have to call out a few tunes and see what you do INSTANTLY without thinking to see exactly where your at with this and to see if any muscle memory has formed at all.Man , if you could find an experienced player to watch you as you play through a few tunes, he /she might be able to tell ya what ya need to focus on..Playin BG banjo is SO MUCH more than just being able to "do" things right... Even "doing" EVERYTHING right cannot help you through what mentally has to be taking place , (behind the scenes) to internalize (not memorize) tunes to play them fluently from one to the next and improvise. Get help from someone who can re teach you how to put all this together where you'll be able to have a foundation for every tune that comes your way and a process that puts it together with the right brain function.
Post some of your playin if ya can so we can hear what your talking about.
John


http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  20:39:18  

Mr. B.:

What is your goal? What are you trying to accomplish? Twelve months from now where would you like to be as a player?

Knowing this may help drive your strategy.

the_mahout

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  21:08:52          

John.....my gosh, you are right on. Goals? Ohh yea.....about that. So, right now I have to prepare for my 8 year old daughters Bday party tomorrow..Will ponder both posts.

I will say John, that I have a pal that has playing for years and is on the hangout that has offered to get together. I bet he could drill down to the areas I need to focus. I should honestly be so much farther along then I am. Years of floundering. Hey, I am fine with our annual family Christmas jams etc etc. Friends think I am great. But they don't play and they have not been listening to he same music as me for so long. I know what good is. I have to have focus.

Guys thank you so much for your feedback. I will vacuum floors and ponder this.

Thanks again.
Brian

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  21:44:49  

I think The Kidd has it right. How much patience do you have? You seem to have the motivation, but I believe you need to back up a bit and REALLY listen to what you're playing and correct the mistakes. This takes oodles of patience. It means plodding along slowly and playing the same tune over and over and over till it sounds right. How right? Well, Pete Wernick gives a tough standard: Be able to play a tune well enough that you'd like to hear it on a CD. This can get quite frustrating, but if your goal is to play well, what alternative do you have? I've been playing for 20 years. At this moment, in front of me on the wall is a list of tunes that I need to learn or relearn. I add slowly to it, but mostly it involves playing and playing the same old tunes, e.g, St. Anne's Reel, Leather Britches, Ragtime Annie, Road to Columbus. These are tunes that I "learned" many years ago--but I have fumbled through them forever. It's time for me to get it right. I believe you're at the point where it's time for you to get it right. Best of luck.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The opposite of a profound truth may well be another truth.
Neils Bohr

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  22:02:25          

I think you both nailed it. Along with the goals. The goal question is gettin to me. However, I have to face the fact I have a lot of junk to fix. So....I am open to suggestions....really go though Mr. Scruggs book page by page or what? I get side tracked by wanting to play a song (Banjoben1 Shuckin the Corn on Youtube as of late). See I pick stuff up and work through it but I am afraid I cheat. I think you are right. I need to go back home and learn the roots. Ideas?

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  22:16:20      

3 youngins ..Man , I couldnt even imagine?. I had a heck of a time with twin 2 yr old grandsons for 3 days (by myself mind you..) The banjo didnt even make it outta the case.They woulda tore it up in a heart beat..Just the fact you posted this shows ya may be ready to accept a different approach... 45 min is alotta time if used wisely.. I go to jams all the time where players are content stumbling through the same tunes week after week not really looking for betterment . Yeah , if its buggin you , doesnt really matter at this point what others think of your playin. Computers involve a logic that I cant seem to grasp. Everything I know was accquired a lil bit here, a lil piece there only learning what interested me at the time and NOW, Im a big mess. Prolly worse than if I knew nothing at all... I dont think Im as dumb as this thing makes me out to be so theres PROOF that the BRAIN can be a dangerous THANG!and will cause untold grief if its not fed properly. Yeah , between your buddy and the rest of us , we'll try to putcha path to where your brain will start sendin the right info.
John

http://www.myspace.com/johnkuhnbluegrass

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  22:17:47      

Two comments: (1) get off the dime and contact this "pal" and let him prove that he is one! (2) During the break at a David Greer guitar concert, I overheard a fellow say to him, "I'd give anything if I could pick half as well as you do." David put down his beverage and said thoughtfully, "Hmmm, well let's see . . . do you work? Do you have a job?" The fellow replied, "Yes." David then offered, "There's your problem!"

All my regular students are told, "Regardless of how much time you spend playing today, you do not retire for the evening until you've matched it with an equal amount of listening." 45 minutes spent on banjo means only 22 1/2 minutes of actual playing time. Not enough! Realistically, 45 minutes to an hour has only kept you where you are - in other words, enough to tread water, but not enough to progress. So I concur with the question regarding your goal. It's time to get clear and then to do what's necesssary.

~Julio

==================================

"I have a pal that has playing for years and is on the hangout that has offered to get together. I bet he could drill down to the areas I need to focus. I should honestly be so much farther along then I am. Years of floundering."

Posted - 11/06/2009 :  22:24:44  

I have no real qualifications to comment except I am new to playing (about 3 years), have a few (5) children and aggregately fit in time to play as I can. As for the goal question, I like learning songs and different techniques and hope to maybe play in front of more people other than my wife, kids or people working in/on the house, someday. Having a teacher is really the best way in my experience and it gives you a reasonable excuse for some "me time" outside of the house. Tabulature is very mechanical and a bit mindless though immediately satisfying and sounds decent. However, a teacher forces a different "homework" agenda and exposes different styles and songs to be learned. I have tried a few teachers and learned immensely from each. It's really not too expensive and certainly worth the time commitment. The good is I can play Boil dem Cabbage like a pro, the bad is whatever song I learned last week and the ugly is the song I'm going to learn next week but I look forward to my weekly lesson. Good luck and I hope that's helpful.

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  05:34:40  

It's generally a good idea to 'practice' (that would be drilling over and over, with focus and determination) the things you don't know and then reward yourself at the end by playing a tune - or part thereof - that you have already mastered and enjoy. Sometimes breaking these songs down into increments as small as a measure or two for practice purposes produces fairly quick results. Also, learning a simple song or two will help you learn and develope your chops while avoiding the frustration of being effectively stonewalled by a song that sikmply too difficult for this part of the learning curve.

AD3

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  07:19:34    

Have you ever played guitar or mandolin? Most of the folks I read interviews with said they sat down with the Scruggs book and learned it. Later on, you read they also played guitar for 3 years first.

Have you ever strummed any songs on the banjo like a guitarist would?
I start folks there getting the left-right hand coordination working on chording songs and tell them to practice two separate things.

One is chords with strumming. Get your hand on every music book you can and strum all the songs you've ever heard. Don't learn new songs. Play songs. Pretend you've got a guitar in your hands and just mess around exploring chords.

The other part of your practice, just do rolls. Not licks. Put your left hand in your pocket and play the forward roll as many different ways as you can at speed. I don't think it's wise to try learning licks until you can actually play at speed and while the folks who are trying it that way say it's impossible and you won't get up to speed for years (which is true for them), I see folks picking at speed within a few weeks as long as they don't try to make fancy licks.

I think it's like riding a bike. If you go to slow, it starts wobbling. Then they tell you to get a metronome to take care of the wobbling and then later on, if you ever get up to some sort of reasonable speed with a stutter pace, you start asking how to hear the melody or how to get more rhythm in your roll.

If you play at speed, you don't have any wobble. You hear the rhythm because you also hear the rhythm while strumming.

Another way to think of this approach is that it's the one Earl used to learn to play banjo. He didn't start off with Foggy Mountain Breakdown licks. It's rather bizarre that everybody else thinks they can start there and learn to play.

Try some of the basic lick-free banjo lessons on my site.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  09:55:13          

FINE JULIO FINE!!! :) I have to find the sweet spot with all of this. To me its bigger than just focus. For me and my family it requires balance. Thats the toughy. Yes, I play the guitar also, have for years. Careful or I will be on another tangent.

I have the basic rolls down great (I think). Struggle with backward rolls a wee bit but I will just sit on the couch with the kids and play that roll until I get kicked out. I think I need to sit with "this guy I know" and drill down on my many weak areas and then set some realistic goals that I can measure. I try to play too fast for sure but I am working on that as well.

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  11:46:41      

Brian is learning why not to engage me in a discussion!! ( ;

I went through grad school, reared a child, and ran my business. I have never devoted less than three hours per day to the banjo.
== so ==
The Man from Mars comes down to Earth, not knowing anything about humans, and observes Brian. Does he decide that there is "balance" in his life? Uh uh, amigo - that's precisely what is lacking and why he decides that you've allotted insufficient time to progress on the banjo. Your family usurps most of your off-work hours (except when you're navigating the BHO!).

The Man from Mars thinks, "We know our intentions, by looking at the results." Convince the Man from Mars and you'll convince me.
~Julio


"FINE JULIO FINE!!! :) I have to find the sweet spot with all of this . . . For me and my family it requires balance. Thats the toughy."

Edited by - Julio B on 11/07/2009 11:50:04

Posted - 11/07/2009 :  11:57:50      

Let me suggest you find a regular jam and attend it. I've been playing over 65 years now and have gone through the frustration of being stalled in my playing abilities. I found when I was in a local band or playing in a jam with others I enjoyed what I was doing and seemed to progress. I still attend a jam every week. I'm constantly playing leads and taking breaks on songs that come up. Songs I may have never heard till the moment I'm asked to play. It's lots more fun to play in a group. It will force you to get better!
Over the years I've seen others join the group with little ability, and after a few months come out of their shells to become great performers.

Go to www.folkjam.org to see if there are regular jams in your area.

Posted - 11/08/2009 :  05:54:43        

Go back and learn the basics right, then you will have a properly built foundation with which to play songs you hear, the way you want to play them.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Glenn

Posted - 11/08/2009 :  06:59:44            

I wrote this a dozen or more years ago. I reposted it on my blog a while back. Maybe it will be of some help...

http://wildjimbo.blogspot.com/2006/...-lesson.html

You might also want to look at:

http://wildjimbo.blogspot.com/2009/...g-banjo.html



Jim Pankey

Edited by - WildJimbo on 11/08/2009 07:05:58

Posted - 11/08/2009 :  10:07:13          

Thank you all for the fine advice and feed back. I really do appreciate it. Julio, I truly appreciate your efforts and opportunities. I am trying to get that "balance" with my other half. I can make things black and white but sometimes its a wee bit more complicated. I will plod ahead and try to make a commitment to getting together for some focus time.

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/08/2009 :  16:56:09      

Let's get together . . . soon!
But do us both a favor, please; avoid using the word, "try." There is a huge difference between making a commitment versus *trying* to commit. "Try" is preparation for failure (the full sentence, "I didn't succeed, but I tried.").
~Julio (who is surprised he has any friends left!)


"I will plod ahead and try to make a commitment to getting together for some focus time."

Posted - 11/09/2009 :  15:03:20  

Problems with all things have the same solution!
Be it Music, golf, playing ball, team ropin, and especialy the dam banjo.
Basics and fundimentals.
It also works well in your life
Try it, it works
DFO

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  07:14:32        

I have to agree that the time you find to practice, is critical to learning the banjo as quickly as possible. I also learned out of the Earl Scruggs book, and digested every page of the fundamentals. When I started to learn the banjo, I worked rotating shift work with lots of overtime. We were raising two boys, and I spent quality time with them. I went to church with my family every time I was off, and helped teach a boys group at church. I played guitar and sang in a country gospel band, and still practiced my banjo at least 2 hours every day, and much more on my days off.

You always find time to do what you want to do. Muting the banjo helps keep peace when everyone else is asleep.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Glenn

Edited by - Glenn Tate on 11/10/2009 07:18:00

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  09:37:34    

quote:

---

Originally posted by The KIDD

Sounds to me like your brain hasnt went through the proper steps to process what you hear correctly. The transfer of certain info has to happen automatically on a couple different levels and those are dependent on how you first precieved the whole anatomy of a banjo break from , how roll configs (not whole rolls) are supposed to work, how melody spawns from them, how tag, lick ,filler, vamp, phrases work in an arrangement and their differences.IMO, reading more isnt gonna help ya. Im sure youve understood and done everything youve read thus far? Im mean, playin since 89, your exposure to everything by now has certain concepts and systems (old Jack H title from BNL) for better or worse, in place. Ive had quite a few students starting in the late 90s who developed this syndrome of wanting to play every new tune that tickled their fancy and thought becuase they liked it so well and tab was readily available to feed the LUST, they would get it....NOT!.....The ones who never went back to square one and actually learned to PLAY with the right mental principles in place ,like I would suggest ,either gave up or are about the same place they were in 97 still tryin to play on a concious level....I would have to call out a few tunes and see what you do INSTANTLY without thinking to see exactly where your at with this and to see if any muscle memory has formed at all.Man , if you could find an experienced player to watch you as you play through a few tunes, he /she might be able to tell ya what ya need to focus on..Playin BG banjo is SO MUCH more than just being able to "do" things right... Even "doing" EVERYTHING right cannot help you through what mentally has to be taking place , (behind the scenes) to internalize (not memorize) tunes to play them fluently from one to the next and improvise. Get help from someone who can re teach you how to put all this together where you'll be able to have a foundation for every tune that comes your way and a process that puts it together with the right brain function.

---

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  13:50:10  

For me sometimes the longer I practice the worse I really start to sound. I do get very frustrated and wonder why I'm even trying to learn but I'm not giving up. I keep telling myself that one day it's all gonna come together and sound great.

Like a Dog, a Banjo just wants to be played with and cared for.

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  14:21:27    

quote:

---

For me sometimes the longer I practice the worse I really start to sound...

---

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  16:48:40      

Yep, over-practicing! Not good. Here's how to fix it: split your practice sessions into no more than 20 minutes each. Between each session, take a minimum 30 minute break to allow the skills/info to sink in. It's NOT how long one practices, but how many short sessions are worked into the day that matter.
~Julio

quote:

---

Originally posted by dbaty

sometimes the longer I practice the worse I really start to sound.

---

Edited by - Julio B on 11/10/2009 16:50:31

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  19:08:15          

Wow, finally got back to the thread. Again, good stuff. John, dead on. Julio good advice. I usually get 20-30 power sessions in. Kinda like how I do my workouts. Between, dinner, at lunch time, just before we put the kids down etc. I still need advice on how....to practice. I look forward to Thursday for your constructive criticizing :) or just down right chastisement. I can take it. Ive been married 13 years and have three childins. As you have done.

So, I want to learn the technique and just where to put my energy toward. I guess we go back to goals...

Thursday it is Doc Julio. I want a white beard when I grow up!

Mr. B

Wind me up and watch me go!

Posted - 11/10/2009 :  19:55:13      

One second, please! You want to "grow up" AND play banjo????????????????
~Julio





"Thursday it is Doc Julio. I want a white beard when I grow up!"