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unguis
 Forum Newbie
United States
4 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2009 : 07:33:36 
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I can tell who of you have had a theory class... But please re-read your music theory books before you go on a rant
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oldwoodchuckb
 Forum Fixture
United States
7735 Posts |
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banjoak
 Rollin' Forward
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2009 : 11:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Unguis.
If you have valuable knowledge please instruct us. Just telling us to re-read a book the size of "Piston's Harmony" is of no value to anyone.
I can't find the S. Foster Songbook, some inconsiderate library user has actually taken in out. Does anyone have a reliable copy of Angelina Baker around or know of one on the web? I have always assumed it would be in Major mode but have to admit that I've only glanced at the tune once in the nearly 40 years I've been playing it, and changes might have been made. We have done it in A (a fourth down from D) and I'm not sure what chording we use as I play it on the banjo, and pretty much stick to the melody.
I also find myself unsure of the harmony in the D fiddle tune "Angeline The Baker" As I recall we and most jams used the D Maj chord and a B min --- no G chord at all. It sounds like that is not the way it is normally played among people on this forum. Is this correct?
I have a pretty old copy of Foster songs, somewhere, I recall it published in 1880's. A few bands have recorded that version. Critten Hollow, Beverly Smith.
The song is typically played in A major, clearly in A major, using I-IV-V chords. The fiddle tune A low part has it's basis in the chorus of the song. The verses start with a third down to the tonic phrase, end the first half of the verse on a V chord (melodically a second, fifth of the V), then back to a third tonic phrase, to a IV, V and at the end of the verse the tune melodically ends on the tonic rather than the fifth. The chorus starts with the lower melodic fifth against the I chord, just like the fiddle tune, but the end of the first half climbs to a B note again representing the fifth of the V chord. And then like the verse ends up going through a I-IV-V-I progression melodically and harmonically ending on the tonic. The other significant difference is he melodically used all of the notes of the major scale.
I recall the folio I had did match pretty well what Critton Hollow played, except I think they simplified the chords a little more, the folio might have included some transitional chords, typical of the professional song writing of that era.
Now if you hear the song in some context of E major or some mysterious bi-tonal hidden key, none of the above will make sense to you.
The fiddle tune got transposed to D, and converted to a pentatonic mode.
The Bm choice for that chord is a logical choice, especially the phrase that goes from F# down to D down to B; (in someways it makes more sense than G, that' more complicated than what I want to get into) does not change it out of D major. The harmonization, in this context is a choice. Many old time style do not like the minor sound in major tunes, and typically play a IV, even when a phrase may more indicate a sixth minor.
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One of the easiest books on music theory, put into really simple terms, is "Lies My Music Teacher Told Me" by Gerald Eskelin. Despite what you might think about the title, he's not throwing out old theory and coming out with new. It's just a better explanation, than what often gets taught. What music teachers, especially at the beginning can be and is easily misinterpreted leading to more confusion and a bunch of myths, and half-truths. He presents looking at the pitch components not through scales, but through harmonic relationships. His view is scales are built out of harmonic relationships, not the other way around. So learning scales just to memorize scales isn't particularly effective to help understand music. He bases a lot on what we hear, rather than looking at a mathematical symbolism. HEARING - D, F#, and A as being related is far better than formulatic THINKING 1, 3, and 5th notes of the scale, "the first note, count up 3 , and count up 2 more". He also has half of the book devoted to easier understanding of rhythm. It's not a big book, readily available at the big box bookstores and online.
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oldwoodchuckb
Forum Fixture
United States
7735 Posts |
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banjoak
Rollin' Forward
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 19:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Since the fiddle tune doesn't come up more than a couple times a year, and only at jams. My wife has to remind me that: "Angeline has the Bm and Sugar Hill has the G." That way I remember to play the correct low part.
And yes - there is no way in --- There is no way Angeline is Bi-tonal-tonic-whatever.
I am still looking for my old Foster book, it's quite rare, I put it somewhere for safe keeping. I do recall it was the same as a version published in the I think 1950's that I got from the library, and matched pretty well (other than some slight performance ornamental variance) the recordings I have. I also am thinking now that the tune might have been written in another key, A Flat or F comes to mind. But I might be thinking another song from the book. That is not particularly important in this discussion anyway. Clearly diatonic.
Funny I have always heard people play Angeline with G; Sugar Hill often folks use a B minor (cause of much debate) I like Sugar Hill with G more, but not a stickler, depends on who I am playing with, which way the majority goes.
I actually never thought about how close those tunes were to each other, until I was playing a dance last year; and someone suggested Angeline after we just played SH, and my student fiddler I who was playing with us said she couldn't do the one right after the other without mixing it up. And the version we play of SH is almost exactly the same melodic structure and contour, other than slight difference in ornamentation and syncopation, the most important difference is the last note. Angeline goes F#, E, D, B to A (the fifth) down; SH goes F#, F# E, D, B to D (the tonic) up. Never heard anyone call SH bi-tonal or anything other than D major.
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janolov
 Forum Fixture
Sweden
20711 Posts
Online
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janolov
Forum Fixture
Sweden
20711 Posts
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banjoak
Rollin' Forward
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 03:09:57
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quote:
Originally posted by janolov
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
All of that SCREAMS D major/Ionian/pentatonic.
There are sources that presents Angeline as A major/pentatonic with (more or less) the identical melody as the D-version, with the difference that the melody ends up with a A major chord, instead of the D chord:
http://www.theharem.net/dnload/songlist.pdf
http://jc.tzo.net/~jc/tmp/Tune4717.pdf
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From the Rocky Science banjo I learned the opposite. The tabs show Angeline has the G and Sugar Hill has the Bm.
Interestingly, your link shows Angeline going to Bm clearly in the B part. It's just a harmonic choice, does not affect the key it's in. Either works fine, depends on who you are playing with and what you want it to sound like.
Likewise the ending A chord. It's a choice. (which I had mentioned in an early post)
However in your example the key signature is D major! A major would need another #.
So are you saying what defines the key and mode is the final chord? So this is a concept that some folks got because they are sure they read somewhere, in some music theory book, or some music authority said, "the chord the tune ends on is the key and mode". It is similar to the "the tune ends on a tonic" NO exception. They can't explain why, they are just sure because they read the rules.
Play a D chord, then a G chord, then a D chord, then finally an A chord. Does it sound resolved?
Now for most people it does not.
Now do the above and after the A, play a D chord. Now does it sound resolved?
For most people it does.
It ain't no Piston's Music theory, or any thick book. It's the physical nature of music.
So you can hold onto your rule if you want, but what's it get you.
Or you can get rid of that rule. So the rules I and most theorists (at least everyone I read) follow.
1. The previous explanation of what determines key and mode.
2. The tune does not have to end on the tonic.
3. The tune does not have to end on it's key name chord.
The first set of rules has been around since at least the old Greek Ptolemy, but not really based on scales, circle of fifths, any thick music theory book, but purely on the physical nature of harmonic relationships.
The second rule has been used for at least 1000 years.
The third rule has been used since fairly early on with the introduction of chord theory and major/minor system at least 300 years.
These are the harmonic rules that have served to explain music for a long time in the past until the present day. It serves well as communication. As well every trusted reference to Angeline I've seen, including your example reinforces it in D major, and not one contradicts it. So they must be following the same rules.
Why does it make a difference? Well if you can understand the harmonic relationship rules and naming convention of Angeline, it becomes portable knowledge, you can use that to help identify key and mode of other tunes.
You have a choice. Look at in a way that makes sense and communicates to most of the world. Or look at in your own special unique way, that doesn't explain much of how music works to everyone. I'm not sure what believing it's in A major does for helping you understand how the world works, form any better understanding of how music works, be able to apply it to other tunes. Nor help with any communication. To me it would just make it all more confusing.
Maybe you have better deeper knowledge than the rest of us, including the durn music theorists, who got it all wrong. Something that communicates better. But really I am always open to new ways of understanding, something I might be missing, better explanation and maybe you have something different that I can then take to open up a whole new understanding to other tunes.
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Laurence Diehl
 Forum Regular
United States
462 Posts |
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oldwoodchuckb
Forum Fixture
United States
7735 Posts |
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double tonic
