Some of the pre-World War II Gibson banjo manufacturing dates that we commonly accept are incorrect.

Surviving pre-war Gibson factory records do not contain detailed and specific information about production dates for individual instruments. It is possible that Gibson never kept this data in the way that C.F. Martin and other manufacturers did. However, by combining other contemporary external source material and the surviving original Gibson factory records we are now in a position to make some badly needed adjustments to our Gibson banjo manufacturing chronology.

One of the first people to attempt the compilation of a pre-war Gibson manufacturing date system was Mr. Davis Kennedy. In a letter published by Bluegrass Unlimited magazine in March 1969, Mr. Kennedy laid out the first important information that would be used for years in assigning production dates for Gibson banjos. Davis Kennedy worked at Gibson as the Supervisor of the Custom Department from 1965 through 1968 and collected his data firsthand from the Gibson factory employees during that period. Roger Siminoff began building on that early data when Pickin’ Magazine published his Gibson Banjo “Serial Number” list in the 1970's. Vintage instrument dealers like George Gruhn, John Bernunzio, Stan Werbin, Stan Jay and legions of private individuals followed the example of these earliest pioneers and collected their own lists of Gibson numbers. These materials first became widely available in the 1990's when Tom Biggs placed a large collection of Gibson information on his Internet website.

As the data began to mount, cracks began to appear in the accepted dates. Tom Biggs originally voiced his concerns to me on this topic over 15 years ago. Other collectors began to see the problems as well, especially those who collected Gibson guitars and mandolins. The system used by the banjo enthusiasts simply did not square with information collected by the guitars and mandolin players. The situation worsened as original sales receipts surfaced, more catalogs were reprinted and a few nearly complete collections of Mastertone Magazine were complied. In his recent book even Jim Mills points out a few of the problems with our accepted chronology.

In retrospect part of the problem is clear. No single collector or dealer had enough data from which to draw valid conclusions. Gibson built over a hundred thousand instruments before World War II and a list containing 200 numbers or even 2,000 numbers is simply not enough data. Another problem is that bad information was repeated. In his original 1969 letter, Davis Kennedy stated that the first flat head Mastertones were built in 1932. But immediately afterwards he qualified that statement by writing that “no one knew for sure, but the most popular guess at Gibson was 1932.” Mr. Kennedy never intended that 1932 be taken as an absolute. But the information was repeated over and over again for years and unfortunately it was incorrect.

The confusing and inconsistent Gibson “system” of serial numbers and factory order numbers adds to the problem. Each batch of instruments built by Gibson during the pre-World War II period had a “factory order number.” This number was used by the accounting department to track the actual costs of manufacturing the instruments. The price of raw materials, finished sub-assembly parts and labor used in the production of each particular batch of instruments were tracked and assigned to that factory order number. High quality instruments like L-5 guitars and F-5 mandolins also received an actual serial number upon completion. Other mid-line instruments like banjos and lower quality guitars simply retained their factory order number with the addition of a bin number instead. Lower quality instruments often got no identifying numbers at all, even though they originally had a factory order number just like everything else.

In a 1970 interview former Gibson employee Wilbur Marker stated that the factory order numbers originated in the weekly production meetings. The senior staff gathered together each week and decided what would be produced in the near future. According to Wilbur Marker, a pre-printed and serially number form was used to initiate a production run. The number on this form became the factory order number. External evidence today shows that Gibson had been using the factory order number system as early as the 1910's and perhaps before that. Indeed, by the time the first Mastertone banjos rolled off the production line in April 1925 the factory order numbers were already in the 8,000 range.

It would also be naive to assume that the factory order numbers were always used in sequential order. Existing evidence shows this is simply not so. Some instruments took longer to sell, some took longer to produce. What began as a pile of pre-printed forms with sequential numbers was not always exactly in numerical order at the end of the production line. For the period from 1925 through 1930 they are nearly sequential, but from 1931 onwards chaos was the order of the day. In my examination of the 1935 shipping ledger sometimes I wonder if someone knocked over that pile of pre-printed forms and then just picked them up off the floor without returning them to sequential order.

The shipping ledgers also show another important fact. After the stock market crash of October 1929 Gibson had extreme difficulty selling plectrum (PB), regular (RB) and any gold plated banjos. One All-American tenor (9747-4) was shipped and returned nine times. By 1937 it is described as being “shop worn.” The final Mastertone banjo shipped prior to World War II was a style 6 which had been sitting around the factory since 1928. I have interviewed a Gibson employee who worked there in the period 1938-1940. He remembers seeing hundreds of dusty older instruments sitting around in the famous rolling racks. Some of them in a state of partial disassembly. The shipping ledgers themselves show that Gibson had a considerable back stock of instruments. These often appear in the ledger with the notation “TB-G old style” or simply “L-5 old.”

It is not difficult at all for me to believe that the Earl Scruggs RB-Granada was assembled in the first quarter of 1930, but not shipped until 1934. The shipping ledgers show that type of thing happened with regularity. Research on my book continues on a daily basis. Hopefully, I will be able to share a revised and more accurate Gibson banjo production chronology with everyone at a near date.

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  06:25:09    

Thanks once again Joe. Please put me on the list for your book when it's ready.

Rich

Kateyz Banjo Bridges
Custom Scrimshaw by Ed Weber
Price Banjo Cases
My Fawley Retrotones

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  06:51:06      

Extremely interesting ,thanks for all your hard work!!!!

"Pick it right or pick through it,just dont stop".
Vic Jenkins

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  07:27:47        

Facinating!

Brian

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  07:55:32  

Does this information now make the Mills Banjo book obsolute?

Tom Isenhour

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  08:04:23    

quote:

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Originally posted by f5loarDoes this information now make the Mills Banjo book obsolute? Tom Isenhour

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Posted - 10/21/2009 :  08:12:53    

Wow!

Tom Briarhopper
http://www.wbtbriarhoppers.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/tomwarlick

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  08:17:03      

If the book is as well-written as the post, then sign me up for a copy. Nice writing style.

Kelly

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  08:20:04    

Great stuff, Joe

- = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = -
Bluegrass -- THE Original Country Music!

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  08:39:51        

Very impressive work, Joe. Glad to see it happening.

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  09:13:32      

In his new book, which I like very much, Jim Mills goes out of his way MANY times to say that the "serial numbers" can no longer be believed as absolute guides to manufacture dates. I think Jim makes it a major point of his book, and he credits having access to SHIPPING records as what is shedding the new light.

Safe to say, you probably don't see many 9000 series or the 3 digit series or the lettered series in the 1920s. As Joe has suggested, things changed RADICALLY after the stock market crash!

I for one, am now perfectly happy to think that an 8000 series banjo might not have been finished, shipped, purchased until WWII!

I think this helps me "accept" the "1927" and "1928" Bella Voce and Florentine at Gruhn's with big flat head tone rings. Those pots (with factory order numbers) might have sat around for years before being finished up into fancy gold plated banjos, and by that later time, flat head rings might have been the ones at hand, and in fact preferred for plectrums and RBs.

Joe, I would like to know what you know about the "second series" of factory 4 digit order numbers supposedly from the late 20s that being with "0".



The Old Timer

I can win the attention of most any girl, wherever I may roam -- But singing and playing on a banjo alone, won't work against a trombone! Uncle Dave

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  12:41:11    

Here is a wonderful example of why the pre-World War II Gibson banjo manufacturing chronology needs adjustment.

I was contacted today by the owner of an RB-1 from lot #9527. He asked me what I thought the manufacturing date might be. I replied that the summer of 1929 was the correct time frame. He later responded that the son of the original owner had always claimed that the banjo was bought by his father in 1929. So all that makes sense.

But here's the catch....

Under the current and commonly accepted chronology any of us would probably have dated this banjo to 1933. What the current owner couldn't understand was how the original owner had purchased the banjo 4 years before it was built!

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  12:46:43        

Joe, thanks again for a very informative post.

Like the others, let me know when you publish these artifacts.

Posted - 10/21/2009 :  13:53:12    

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Spann

Here is a wonderful example of why the pre-World War II Gibson banjo manufacturing chronology needs adjustment.

I was contacted today by the owner of an RB-1 from lot #9527. He asked me what I thought the manufacturing date might be. I replied that the summer of 1929 was the correct time frame. He later responded that the son of the original owner had always claimed that the banjo was bought by his father in 1929. So all that makes sense.

But here's the catch....

Under the current and commonly accepted chronology any of us would probably have dated this banjo to 1933. What the current owner couldn't understand was how the original owner had purchased the banjo 4 years before it was built!

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Posted - 10/21/2009 :  22:16:36      

Once again Joe, GREAT info and thanks for all your research and hard work. I sure wish there were some kind of records pertaining to the custom shop of the PW era. I can trace my PW to about 1935 but don't know the year it was actually made. Numbers put it in the 1925 production but that can't be right as it has features that were not available that early. Sure would be great to find something firm on it's production. Thanks again for all the great info.

Bob

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  06:31:10  

Great post. This fully agrees with the findings I am reaching on mandolins and guitars

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  06:38:54  

We have this similar thread going in mandolin cafe land

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/s...55349&page=2

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  07:13:26    

quote:

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Originally posted by f5journalGreat post. This fully agrees with the findings I am reaching on mandolins and guitars.

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Posted - 10/22/2009 :  08:48:06        

quote:

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Originally posted by f5loar

Does this information now make the Mills Banjo book obsolute?

Tom Isenhour

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Posted - 10/22/2009 :  09:26:36        

This is really exciting. . . the biggest advancement so far in our understanding of these old banjos and Gibson's production practices. This is what has needed to happen for so long. . . someone with Joe's training and abilities as a researcher (and writer) having access to these records. More, Joe. . . more!!!

ge

The Prewar Gibson Banjo website
http://www.earnestbanjo.com

Posted - 10/22/2009 :  10:46:43      

Thanks for sharing, Joe, and for undertaking all the hard work that goes into a project like this. As Greg said, it's really exciting.

--Frank

Posted - 10/25/2009 :  05:45:13      

The previous owner of 9774-3 insists that it was purchased in 1928. He said he had documents to prove it... I've begged him to try and find that document. He's looking.

Aaron, North Carolina
--------------------
Maple Chief #75


1988 Gibson RB-3

Posted - 10/25/2009 :  05:58:42              

quote:

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Originally posted by apherigo

The previous owner of 9774-3 insists that it was purchased in 1928. He said he had documents to prove it... I've begged him to try and find that document. He's looking.

Aaron, North Carolina
-

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Posted - 10/25/2009 :  06:51:17    

[/quote]

I've heard those kinds of stories too Joe! I have heard more than one story of original flathead bowties being bought in the 1940's! Heck, one was remembered to be bought in the '30's!! My point is, without proof-positive of some of these purchase dates, memories cannot be relied upon.

Lynwood Lunsford

[/quote]

Consider this, Lynwood:

A Top tension TB-7 sold in 1941 or later could accurately be described as ".....an original flathead bowtie bought in the 1940's.....". Not the familiar RB-250, but still an accurate description. Would have been true in 1937. Yeah, the bowties had slots, but still they are the original bowties.

Just rattling your chain, pal......

Oldtwanger Frank
'Information not shared is lost.'

Posted - 10/25/2009 :  07:39:28      

quote:

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Originally posted by Ks_5-picker I've got a 9781-80 kel kroydon.Would that not be somewhere close to this banjo in chronology?

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Posted - 10/25/2009 :  07:41:33    

For what it's worth, my dad received his brand new TB-4 #9681-1 as a highschool graduation present in 1934. Could this have been sitting around at the factory for several years? Maybe his teacher had it for several years - I wish I could have asked him more about it. All I know is when he got it and what my grandparents paid - $150 which was the going price at the time. I currently own TB-4 #8836-16 on some lists dated at 1928. How much earlier was this made?

Rex