Hello I'm a newish player about one year and have been playing mainly in open G I can play C out of G and D out of G but sometimes find the fingering difficult.

Anyway started to jam with a few friends that are not really old time music players, and they wanted to play Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen so I thought I would practice this week. A few chord shapes were hard to get so I thought iwould venture out to a different tuning (why not) I played with standard C Open C and Double C and all have there advantages and negatives. I do not want to learn another 3 tuning at once and was wondering what is the overall most useful to learn. I get the feeling its Double D

Your thoughts please?

Patrick

Just getting the beat

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  18:11:38      

If you're going to be playing mostly fiddle tunes, Double-C (D) is probably the best. But I'd suggest that if you're going to be all over the lot stylistically, that standard C is the best one. There's a reason Pete Seeger uses it so much; there's a reason it's the normal tuning for classic style players. That's because you can get to all sorts of tunes with it--tunes that might not be suited for the sound of the C note open on the 2d string.

Bill

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  20:41:52        

Hi, Oh yah Bill nailed it Double C (capoed) Double D is First base ,Cant' hit no home runs until you are good friends with this tuning. Your scruggs friends are coming from a different Galaxcy. So.......Tune up to gCGCD.Now for the magic old time primary Giant AH HA! Place yourMiddle finger on String 1 at the second fret, begin the rythum ( Bump-a ditty) . This shuold be good . Now for the miricle of Double C tuning Pull off at-a- as in Bump-a ditty. Wow there you go Get over your bad self......Steve A banjo Yankee

Edited by - ELWOOD on 08/13/2009 20:46:10

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  21:48:32          

You don't say what key you need to play the Cohen song in, but unless it has key changes or a lot of harmonic busy work you should be able to use a tuning that won't force you to use all barre chords or clumsy fingerings. If you let us know what key you are after we can be a lot more specific about tunings.

If you are actually playing D out of G tuning, without a capo -- Believe me you need to get yourself a capo. Life gets Soooooooo much easier with a capo. However, if you are absolutely against capos, think about:

1 - tuning the banjo Up one whole tone to - aEAC#E) which will also work for the Key of A. You would have to tune down again to get back to G but a few thousand fretless players do it all the time and if they can do it so can you.

2 - Using Open D tuning (f#DF#AD) You get this tuning by dropping the G strings one half tone to F#s and dropping the B string one whole tone to A. No strings are raised above their usual G tuning pitch for this and the chord positions are similar (sort of) to the G tuning chord positions - think "everything that was on strings 1,2 3 in G tuning goes to strings 2,3,4 in D tuning - and the 1st string is the same as the 4th".

Yeah, I admit that sounds a bit complicated, but just draw out the chord shapes you need and Bob's your uncle.
D is 00000
G is x0120
A is x2302

As to the various C tunings, I never use Open C and have never really cared for the tuning - I don't like extra tension on the 1st string - it just "feels" dead wrong. So I all I say is based on C bass (gCGBD) vs Double C (gCGCD).

The first way to think about the tunings is to think about the repertoire you will be playing. I do mostly fiddle tunes and for me the advantage goes to Double C - Having the root note on the 2nd string allows me to do all sorts of things without worrying about having that open "B" string come ringing out when I don't want it. B is the 7th of the C Major scale and will not fit into C Mixolydian tunes or C Pentatonic tunes. Having a "B" on that 2nd string usually forces me into more closed positions.

HOWEVER
I do not play a chord based style. I play melody and backing. Were I playing mostly chords I would probably use C Bass (gCGBD) tuning a lot, as the chords become the same for both key of G and key of C songs. Capoed to the second fret that becomes the keys of A and D. Many years ago I did play mostly song accompaniment and C bass was the only tuning I used other than what was then called "Mountain Minor".

For Chord work, standardizing your tuning either on C bass or Open G just seems the most logical to me. Which you choose would strike me as more a matter of taste than necessity - ie: if you really mostly like the G tuning but there is one tune you just can't get without that C bass, go ahead and re-tune that 4th string for that particular song, and then back to G when you finish. You get the C bass when it is necessary and deal with your most familiar tuning most of the time.

Basically, it comes down to the repertoire being the important part. If you learn something that calls for a specific tuning - use it. You don't have to commit to a tuning. You can actually change any song to a different tuning later, should one come along and just steal your heart away,

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer Tunes" at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

To print the tabs separately from the book you need TEFView a free download from:
http://www.tabledit.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  22:27:03  

thanks for help gentlemen. Chuck I have no problem retuning its just the one to choose but you certainly have helped. I do indeed sometimes play C chords out o G with a capo. There is one thing you mentioned I dont understand
"were I playing mostly chords I would probably use C Bass (gCGBD) tuning a lot, as the chords become the same for both key of G and key of C songs" Do you mean the chord shapes are the same?

Just getting the beat

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  22:47:06          

Yes - exactly

I first learned from Pete Seeger's book in the 1950s and from a teacher who had played in the classical banjo era. So I used C bass tuning for everything either in the key of C or that of G. I thought of it like guitar where you play all the keys out of one tuning. Both Pete and my teacher used C bass so I did too.

After a couple years I needed money for a Flamenco guitar and sold the banjo. When I came back a decade later, folk songs were out and fiddle tunes with string bands were on the ascendant. So I used G tuning for G + A and Double C for C + D to use as many open strings as possible in any given tune.

This was an opposite philosophy to that of my early teachers, but I adapted pretty quickly. Were I still a working musician I would still spend hours reworking set lists to minimize tuning - audiences hate silence and I have never learned how to tell joke at the same time as I adjust strings. Singing with the banjo - jes'fine. Keeping an audience occupied and happy while tuning - not so good.

If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer Tunes" at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

To print the tabs separately from the book you need TEFView a free download from:
http://www.tabledit.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Posted - 08/13/2009 :  22:50:44      

The Woodchuck and I agree, but he gave a lot better and more detailed musical explanation than I did. Except for the 4th string, chords in G tuning (gDGBD) are the same as for (standard, or low bass) C tuning (gCGBD).

Bill

Posted - 08/14/2009 :  00:25:28      

I think double C (D) is the most common tuning in CH next to the G(A) tuning. However, I think the open C (D) tuning is a forgotten tuning. It has a lot of possibilities and should be used more..

.

Jan-Olov

Posted - 08/14/2009 :  07:01:33      

And have a look-see at Don Borchelt's (http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango....asp?id=8408) discussion of alternate tunings at: http://www.banjr.com/tunings.htm .

LyleK
P.S. - And while you're at it, be sure to check out his cartoons and Fred the cat.

http://lylewk.home.comcast.net

Edited by - LyleK on 08/14/2009 07:05:47

Posted - 08/14/2009 :  07:24:19  

I had a look and very good thank you.
I'm going to spend a bit of time on Double C(D) for now and see how the tunes I know sound and then I think I will try sawmill. (a new door has opened)

Cheers Patrick

Just getting the beat

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  06:08:01  

I can't stop playing on any tuning with a C Bass note (Sawmill, Double C, Open C). I find there's something really satisfying about that lower fourth string - playing around on the higher strings and then dropping down to the fourth has a nice sound to it. Open G and any other tunings will just have to wait for now until I ride this one out!

Out of all of them, though, I'm finding Double C the most fun. Can't give a musical explanation, I just love it.

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  08:46:32    

I discourage people from learning new tunings unless they mostly wish to play by themselves. Different tunings have kewl sounds but it _is_ learning a new neck.

Many years ago, folks were saying learning a new tuning helped you learn the neck better. They are wrong. That's like saying learning chords on a mandolin or a guitar help you learn your chords on a banjo. It only helps with learning if you can translate between the instruments.

When I first learned to frail, I learned a bunch of different songs in different tunings. When I had the translation epiphany, I converted three of my G songs to double-C tuning (in G) and three of my dbl-C songs to open G tuning (in D because they were always capoed) just to make sense of the banjo neck.

I stopped using dbl-C after that exercise except for solo or stage work.

Spike your 5th string up to A and you've got two open D strings in G tuning.
Your home D chord is 0230.
Your other D chords up the neck can take advantage of that low open D, too.
0777, 0-11-10-12


If you like the sound of open tunings, use them, but if you cannot convert any of your songs from one tuning to another, then it's almost like saying I know these 4 songs on the banjo, these 5 on the mandolin and these three on the guitar and if I have the wrong instrument, I cannot play that song.

I discourage learning new tunings until I think the person knows enough to play in at least 5 or 6 different keys in one tuning first. Otherwise it's just memorization of new chords or scale positions without any actual musical knowledge being imparted.

Mike Moxcey
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  14:19:53          

I have to disagree with you completely on that Mike.

The banjo is an instrument of tunings. The Life of a tune is in the tuning, and if you don't use appropriate tunings you might as well be playing a guitar. Because of my stage time I cut down to as few tunings as I felt I could use and still keep an audience from getting bored. That comes down to 4 regular tunings and 2 capo positions. Any less and I wouldn't feel I was doing the right thing.

As to not being able to learn the neck --- why would you think that? And what do you mean by "learning the neck"? Are you talking about doing jazz scales up and down the neck? If so perhaps you should stick to one tuning. But if all you need are a few chord positions up the neck and the ability to play a tune melody someplace other than 1st position - what makes you believe that is difficult in more than one tuning?

When I played folk guitar I used standard tuning, G tuning, D tuning, and a modal tuning - I wasn't much into folk guitar so I didn't play in any of the other tunings my friends used. And yes I played up the neck in all those tunings because there was no point going into those tunings unless you were going to play up the neck.

It is the same with banjo.


http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  16:32:36    

Amen Tony a tuning can make all the difference in an arrangement of a tune, well yeah you might have to do something a little hard there remembering this stuff but WELL worth it I have tried and tried to not to have to do a lot of tunings - no more BUT if you are a chord based player Double C is not a good tuning an open C tuning - yes raising that dreaded first string (i know Tony but..) while it isn't as chord friendly as open G is much better than Double C for chords and some tunes just love that tuning. Some VERY good examples of what can be done in open C tuning can be found in some of Mike 'i love his tabs' Iverson's tunes on his web site, a couple that come to mind are his arrangement of Ragtime Annie and Cuckoo's Nest which i like better than any other tabs i have seen for these two tunes, Mike also gives common chord diagrams for this and i think four other popular tunings, you may want to check it out. By the way those two tunes are not chordie but i can't think of any examples of chordie clawhammer because i don't like it so i don't listen to it but the chords are there in open C if you do.

jk

Edited by - majikgator on 11/01/2009 16:48:19

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  17:31:59        

To each his own. I've never understood why anyone would think of C/C as not being chord friendly. I seldom brush chords but I do use chord shapes a lot and I find C/C to be very easy to chord in. I do tend to make three string chords though.

As for not learning tunings because you have to learn the neck differently for each tuning.... If I learn how to use the neck in five tunings, why would that be any harder than learning to use the neck five different ways in one tuning? Not only is it not harder, it's easier. The tunings were designed to locate the notes you'll be needing for different keys and different tunes right under your left hand fingers. They are also designed to provide certain effects. A cool sounding pull off, handy hammer on or whatever that makes the tuning unique and provides the "atmospheres" often spoken of. If a person wants to play old time tunes with an old time sound, that person needs to learn the tunings. If a person wants to chord along behind a singer or play a chord based old time style backup like C. Poole or some of those masters, then working out of one tuning makes sense.

There is a sense among some pickers that those who retune their instruments, whether banjo, fiddle or guitar, to play certain tunes or in various keys are somehow substandard or less skilled than those who cram everything into one tuning. It ain't so.

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  20:14:08    

i guess i should correct what i said there, i meant like full chords as in folk style playing i just am not interested in that myself, i don't do a lot of three string brushing very seldom, i kind of like what i guess a lot of round peak players and others do my strums are most frequently one string sometime two strings very seldom three strings if the next notes to be played happen to fall in pretty much the shape of a chord even a four string chord then i may very well form that chord but often as not i may not even know what the chords are to a tune i am playing let alone have that be the basis from which i play, chords are often only suggested and can be substituted the melody (and rhythm) are the main thing for me. Tunings give all the flavor in the world to a tune they aren't necessarily there to make it EASIER to play as i often hear, what does EASY have to do with sounding good if you can get the exact same sound doing it the easy way then sure do it the easy way. i figured out how to play "Down to Tampa" in differnt tunings and different keys trying NOT to use the f#BEAD tuning that Paul Brown used and finaly only did at his urging as he likes that tuning a lot and boy when i did all those other ones i did just paled compared to the way i played it then, that tuning he used allowed him to make that arrangement of the tune that made me want to learn it to begin with, and another tune and another tune...

jk

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  20:38:29          

Now that I'm using light gage strings perhaps I will check out Open C tuning more. With mediums it just never felt right.



http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
Rocket Science Banjo - Advanced Clawhammer Techniques for beginners and long time players alike. Plus videos and 25-40 EZ Clawhammer Tunes.
& check out "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
banjo brad's great banjo site

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  20:38:49        

jk, If you're responding to my post, I think you may have taken me wrong. Other than C/C being easy to form chords in, I agreed with all you said. I don't brush a lot of chords as you can tell from my music files here on the Hangout. I try to get at the melody in every tune. But my style of playing involves weaving notes around the melody as well and so while I fret the melody notes, I'll also be fretting whatever other strings I might be using to do that weaving. This means I use a lot of "shapes". Not all of them are chord shapes. Rather they're shapes that include the notes I need which may or may not be part of the chord the tune is in at the moment. My comments about tunings and the idea that using the appropriate tuning makes things easier were directed to Mike in response to his above post about tunings.

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

Posted - 11/01/2009 :  20:49:06        

Tony, Since learning Snowdrop I've tried using open C for several other tunes. It's an easy enough tuning to use but I keep returning to C/C which seems more versatile to me. It probably has more to do with my being used to it though. I'm the same way with f# D F# A D tuning. Don Borchelt plays his D stuff there and it's really effective. He tends to run the melody up the 2nd and 3rd strings when he can so that he has drones above and below in pitch. But there again, I always seem to come back to C/C although I do play a few in the open D. Open D and C tunings do work really well for the old time banjo show piece tunes like Snowdrop and Coal Creek March. Those type tunes take advantage of the barre chords and don't always have a lot of melody but nearly always have a lot of rolling over chords.

**********************
Take what is given
Give what is taken

Chip Arnold

Posted - 11/02/2009 :  05:37:26            

I play all my "D" fiddle tunes out of double C. It's my favorite tuning.

"Gospel. The most powerful music in this world and the next."



www.frailin.com
www.myspace.com/frailin
www.myspace.com/singletonstreet
www.myspace.com/eelpouts
&
www.autismhangout.com

Posted - 11/04/2009 :  00:09:24      

Double C capoed definitely- 'cept I have a short neck banjo,
so no capo, Double D is its default tuning.

I like the hammer on to the third on the 1st string.

As a fiddler I also like the similarity the tuning shows to standard fiddle tuning-
both have a D, an A, and an E.
The two low strings finger like the fiddles middle two strings and the high string like the fiddle's top string... well, except that on the fiddle the notes are much closer together.

I also like that the tuning is just one whole step away from "sawmill" tuning by tuning up the bottom string. Before I became mostly a fiddler, the way I kept the fiddler from getting too impatient at retuning was to start in two C's capoed for D, raise the low string for Sawmill and A modal tunes, drop the second string a half step for A major, then take off the capo and adjust the 5th string for G major. That way, only one string needs to be changed at a time.

I also find 2 C's to be very good for drop-thumb- that second string is a natural first and frequent destination for the dropped thumb

I found Standard C utilitarian but bland, and Open C a hassle to change to and from.
It also seemed better suited to a bump-ditty frailer who hammered-on and pulled-off lots, and I became more of a drop-thumber.

Michael

mp3 page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088/
Also available:
Michael's Old Time Fiddle and Banjo Hour (Hi-Fi and Lo-Fi streams)

Edited by - banjopogo on 11/04/2009 00:18:40

Posted - 11/04/2009 :  10:39:52        

I play all of my c or d tunes in double tuning. I like the tone color you get from the double "tonic" and "dominant". This way the single mediant sneaks in perfectly. Also, I am a melodic player. If I play chords, it is also while I am playing the melody. I have noticed much more chording from musicians that I have heard in classical tuning. I am not opposed to the classical tuning and sometime down the road I would like to delve into that tuning style.

As for other tunings:

I would encourage anyone to learn song in many different tunings, once you have a good foundation on songs learned. In my own experience (playing banjo, as well as classical trumpet) it is always good to know the canon-or standards- of songs/tunings. This will allow you to be able to play with others more frequently. At the same time, it is good to learn some tunes "in a different light". It can be just as rewarding, even if you may not get to play them with other people, in alternate tunings, as much.


~Chris

Christopher W. Dean

Edited by - Chris Dean on 11/04/2009 10:43:42

Posted - 11/04/2009 :  11:29:16            

I use double-C/D more often than standard C too, but that does seem to be a modern habit. Guys like Wade Ward and Hobart Smith used standard C more often than is common nowadays. For some amazing melodic use of it, check out Ward's 'Mississippi Sawyer': http://www.myspace.com/wardwade and Smith's 'Soldier's Joy': http://www.folk-legacy.com/store/sc...idProduct=40

Like any tuning, it makes some things easier and other things harder. For the original question about which to learn next, like some others have said, I would go with double-C if old-time is what you're aiming for, standard C if you want to play songs in various keys (and get a copy of Pete Seeger's book!).

Hunter

"Eternity is in love with the productions of time." - William Blake

Old-Timey Music for Body & Soul - www.hunterrobertson.com

Posted - 11/04/2009 :  12:55:42  

well this thread ha realy gone off recently. As it was started a while back, I made a decision to go with standard C next. The reason being that I am playing a number of more modern tunes with others in a very mixed group. I find I can cover most of my tunes between G and Standard C

Cheers Guys


Just getting the beat