I see some builders of open backs enclosing the outer two or three inches of the back with flat wood. Is there any sound advantage to this? does its create a slight resonator effect or is it just ornamental... Bob.

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  07:58:00        

That is known as an "internal resonator". see http://www.banjohangout.org/classif...asp?cid=5228
I don't have any knowledge of the sound but I would presume it is something in between. They look cool.

"We''re lost. But we''re makin good time".

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  08:25:20          

In the early 1900s THe Bacon banjo co. marketed a line of internal resonator banjos including the "FF Professional." models. The design is intended to increase the volume and enhance certain tonal characteristics.

The Arthur E. Smith banjo co. made simiar instruments in the 1970s. Bart Reiter produced his Internal resonator banjos until they were discontinued a few years ago. Dave Ball in knoxville, TN is one of a very few custom builders who offer this construction today.

I've owned and played several Internal resonator banjos. The ones I'm most familiar with, were made by Bart Reiter. I don't know that the volume is greatly enhanced over a regular rim open-back rim. However, I think these banjos have a bigger "presence" and a "wide," open, room-filling sound. The Internal Resonator also seems to strengthen the bass tones. Both of my CDs were recorded using Bart Reiter Internal resonator banjos. Sound samples are on my website (see below).

Here are detail photos of one (note this example has a whyte laydie tone ring which is a bit unusual for Internal resonator rims. Most have Bacon donut rings):




www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Edited by - jbalch on 07/22/2009 08:27:53

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  10:16:55    

Thanks Greg and John. You helped clear up a mystery for me. I plan on building on 12" Keller drum shells soon and will probably get a 10" shell to make the internal rings.
John, may I ask how much clearance is there between the inner ring and the head? Thanks ...Bob.

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  10:43:07          

The clearance between the top of the internal ring...and the head is about 1/2"

BTW...here is a photo of a rare 12" Reiter Internal Resonator rim. Bart made probably fewer than a dozen of these. There are a few subtle construction differences.




www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  13:45:41    

Thanks John. Like they say a pictures worth a 1000 words... Bob.

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  14:35:42        

Hank Volk of the Henry J Banjo Shop still makes a beautiful example of this style of pot assembly. His work is exceptional! And he's a great guy to deal with.
Gary

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  16:31:54      

So much to learn. John Balch knows a lot and plays pretty well too.The BHO is a great resource.

Bruce Vernon

"A gentleman is a man who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." - Mark Twain

"Don''t worry about mistakes. There aren''t any." - Miles Davis

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  19:18:24          

Thanks Bruce...you are too kind. Lots of folks around here know much more about this stuff than I do. I agree there is a lot to learn and this is a great place to do it.

Dave Ball (http://www.ballbanjos.com/) has made some beautiful Internal Resonator banjos. Here is one from his website:



Hugo Valcke ( http://www.hugovalcke.be/intro.htm) made this one:



www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Posted - 07/22/2009 :  20:09:17        

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

... The Arthur E. Smith banjo co. made simiar instruments in the 1970s.
Bart Reiter produced his Internal resonator banjos until they were discontinued
a few years ago. ...

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/22/2009 20:44:05

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  08:57:17          

Ed:

Back when AE Smith was making those banjos, I ordered a catalog. At the time, I simply could not afford one of their banjos. But I thought they were the coolest things I had ever seen. I know that is the source of my continued fascination with the design. Yours is a very beautiful banjo.

I think Bart Reiter's "standard" Professional & Grand Concert set-up became an off-the-shelf Stewart MacDonald Bacon-style tone ring. That tone ring consisted of a spun donut on top on a rolled brass hoop.

None of the Reiter banjos I have are that same standard construction. The fancy Grand Concert has the "hot-rodded" combination (whyte laydie scallop under the Bacon spun ring). Bart now calls this combination a "plus" model. The 12" models have simple brass hoops. I assume that there were not many commercially available tone rings for 12" rims in 1993 when they were made.

I once had a Bacon FF professional rim with a thin rolled steel hoop under the spun brass donut. The hoop was less than 1/8" thick and stood about 1/2" tall. It fit in a rabbet around the top edge of the wood rim. Unfortunately I did not make any photos of the rim and tone ring before selling the banjo to Mary Z. Cox. But, it was a really fine sounding instrument...a lot like my Reiter with the hot-rodded rings.



www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Edited by - jbalch on 07/23/2009 09:00:26

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  13:56:59    

I'm interested in experimenting with an internal resonator on an open back banjo I'm building, can anyone comment on the materials used for the "internal resonator" part of these designs? They appear to be thin ply of some kind, which wouldn't be too hard to do for an experiment. The other option that seemed possible would be to use tone wood like a guitar/mando/violin would use. Doesn't seem as likely, given normal banjo reso construction, but figured I'd ask...

Are there any critical sizes or magic dimensions to these designs? I saw the 1/2 inch distance to the head, are any of the other dimensions known to be critical to success?

Thanks.

73 John

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  13:58:42        

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

... I think Bart Reiter's "standard" Professional & Grand Concert set-up became an off-the-shelf Stewart MacDonald Bacon-style tone ring. That tone ring consisted of a spun donut on top on a rolled brass hoop. ...

---

quote:

---

I once had a Bacon FF professional rim with a thin rolled steel hoop under the spun brass donut. The hoop was less than 1/8" thick and stood about 1/2" tall. It fit in a rabbet around the top edge of the wood rim. Unfortunately I did not make any photos of the rim and tone ring before selling the banjo to Mary Z. Cox. But, it was a really fine sounding instrument...a lot like my Reiter with the hot-rodded rings.

---

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  14:16:00          

Here is one of the photos of the finished banjo.I got the rim without a neck. The neck was a Wyatt Fawley blank finished by Dan Knowles. The finish on the rim is same color as found. (Dan just touched it up with French Polish). I really wish I'd made photos of the tone ring un-assembled. I remember that there were some pencil marks on the rim...but I didn't make a note of what they said. I've started photographing the individual parts on all my projects now...but didn't think of it back then.

There is a sound sample of that banjo on my homepage. It had a bright, clear tone a lot like my hot-rodded Bart Reiter: http://www.banjohangout.ws/banjohan...41192007.mp3




www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Edited by - jbalch on 07/23/2009 14:24:30

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  19:51:14        

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

Here is one of the photos of the finished banjo ... I really wish I'd made photos of the tone ring un-assembled. I remember that there were some pencil marks on the rim...but I didn't make a note of what they said ...

There is a sound sample of that banjo on my homepage. It had a bright, clear tone a lot like my hot-rodded Bart Reiter: http://www.banjohangout.ws/banjohan...41192007.mp3

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/23/2009 19:54:51

Posted - 07/23/2009 :  19:58:02          

This isn't as good a picture as what John has provided, but this is from a couple years back when I was putting a Yellowstone head (installed sorta like skin) on my 1987 Reiter Professional. It's an 11" with the round-topped flat hoop that Ed describes. Mr. Balch once owned this one, too.



Brian

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  05:10:02          

Brian:

I remember your banjo well. It is a very good one.

The photos reveal a few construction differences between 1987 and 1993 (my 12" rim example), and 1994 (my fancy Grand Concert).

Yours has a larger rolled-brass tone ring (like the Special model). The ring sits in a rabbett on the rim. My 12" rim banjo has a simple round brass hoop ring that sits on top of the rim.

Yours has a larger solid block between the inner and outer resonator rims at the neck joint.

On your banjo, the inner ring joint is re-inforced with kerfing (like my 1993 12" rim). However there is no kerfing is on my 1994 fancy grand concert.

Interesting...


www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Edited by - jbalch on 07/24/2009 06:26:57

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  05:25:10          

Here are some interesting photos af a very rare Bart Reiter mahogany internal resonator rim from 1992. i owned it briefly before trading it to a good friend. The internal resonator back was mahogany. The neck was beautiful stained flame maple. It had a custom headstock inlay of a badger paw.





www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  05:47:59          

Thanks for the pictures of these beautiful banjos. These internal resonators are so cool. And the production facts you guys are sharing are cool as well.

David

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  06:35:07        

WHY use an internal resonator. What is the SOUND like? Does it make an open back Looking banjo sound like a resonator banjo? Or is it somewhere between open back and resonator? Aren't the metal tone rings a bigger factor in creating a less thumpity, more crisp tone then a resonator?

Jed Marum
http://www.jedmarum.com/

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  06:53:56    

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has experimented with using any other tone rings in an internal resonator banjo above and beyond those already mentioned. I have one of Bart's FF Dragons with the donut and the "subterranean" scalloped Whyte Laydie/Electric tone ring configuration and have been considering replacing the donut with the full Whyte Laydie unit (both inner and outer parts). In contacting Bart, he said this would be fairly easy to do. I'd be especially interested to know if anyone has tried using a JLS Silver Bell ring, assuming the outer rim wall would accept it or could be modified to do so. How would you describe the tonal results? --Cjazz

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  07:45:23          

quote:

---

Originally posted by JedMarum

WHY use an internal resonator. What is the SOUND like? Does it make an open back Looking banjo sound like a resonator banjo? Or is it somewhere between open back and resonator? Aren't the metal tone rings a bigger factor in creating a less thumpity, more crisp tone then a resonator?

Jed Marum
http://www.jedmarum.com/

---

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  13:08:02          

quote:

---

Originally posted by JedMarum

WHY use an internal resonator. What is the SOUND like? Does it make an open back Looking banjo sound like a resonator banjo? Or is it somewhere between open back and resonator? Aren't the metal tone rings a bigger factor in creating a less thumpity, more crisp tone then a resonator?

Jed Marum
http://www.jedmarum.com/

---

Edited by - jbalch on 07/24/2009 13:15:01

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  13:27:05          

quote:

---

Originally posted by clawhammerjazz

I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has experimented with using any other tone rings in an internal resonator banjo above and beyond those already mentioned. I have one of Bart's FF Dragons with the donut and the "subterranean" scalloped Whyte Laydie/Electric tone ring configuration and have been considering replacing the donut with the full Whyte Laydie unit (both inner and outer parts). In contacting Bart, he said this would be fairly easy to do. I'd be especially interested to know if anyone has tried using a JLS Silver Bell ring, assuming the outer rim wall would accept it or could be modified to do so. How would you describe the tonal results? --Cjazz

---

Edited by - jbalch on 07/24/2009 13:29:11

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  15:16:36    

Thanks for your reply, John. I assure you I don't have the desire to modify my FF's rim, but was curious if anyone had tried or had the knowledge of whether a JLS Silver Bell ring might fit. A long shot, for sure, but some do modify their banjos, and there are a lot of experimenters out there! I realize the way I worded my question might have caused a gasp or two. I know that the Stew-Mac Whyte Laydie ring will fit and will likely give one a try to see what the sound is like. I was hoping David Ball might chime in and find out if he's ever tried using a Silver Bell ring in one of his internal resonator banjos. I like the internal resonator design and the great mid-range sound the donut/scalloped ring offers, but then, to my ear, the tone tends to thin out in both the low and high registers where I often play. It does cut extremely well for jazz chording, though, as is! Best regards. --Cjazz

Posted - 07/24/2009 :  15:52:12      

I've used all kinds of tone rings in internal resonator banjos. I've never used a Silver Bell ring, but I'm sure it would sound good. I'm also betting that one of Bill Rickard's Dobson style rings would work very well with an internal resonator. I'll find out one of these days.

My current favorite set up is a heavy 1/2" tube suspended on round head brass rivets in an arrangement very similar to the earliest Gibson ballbearing tonering. Combined with an internal resonator, I really like the sound. It's bright, with a crisp mid-bass and bass and it has great dynamics. It still has the midrange that you'd expect from an internal resonator banjo. I have a 12" Rickard tubaphone tone ring that I might well try with an internal resonator one of these days too.

Dave