What's the point of scooping out the higher frets for playing Clawhammer? I've seen a lot of banjo's with this mod. How much does it cost to have this done?

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Truth is not relative. It is absolute.

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  09:55:24      

Some players like to play over the neck in the fashion of the Round Peak players. Many of them like the banjos scooped to facilitate that. So it's become a fashion. It's not necessary to play there, but it's a convenience. I play over the head so it's never been an issue with me. The older players who played over the neck did not scoop their banjos.

Bill

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  09:58:35  

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Some players like to play over the neck in the fashion of the Round Peak players. Many of them like the banjos scooped to facilitate that. So it's become a fashion. It's not necessary to play there, but it's a convenience. I play over the head so it's never been an issue with me. The older players who played over the neck did not scoop their banjos.

Bill

---

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  10:37:36    

As I've been told, and read in the Siminof book, striking (attacking) the strings at mid-point is the ideal from a physcs point of view. Also, playing at the base of the neck seems to give a mellower (plunkier) sound than mid head. Conversely, if you want a sharp, very precise sound, back up towards the bridge... check out the BG folks.

Some frailers I've spoken to claim they must have the scoop because their thumb and/or finger sometimes strikes the fretboard. Others say that's not true and the scoop is primarily a visual effect. I often play up at the bottom of the fingerboard and have never stuck a finger or thumb in far enough to hit the fretboard.

Some frailers also raise the action so that they have extra clearance at the 12th fret and beyond. Most don't do a whole lot of "up the neck" work so it doesn't matter too much. This is probably more apt to be on the fretless banjo. I believe Stringbean is quoted as saying that "there's no money above the 5th fret."

Scott

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  13:06:05          

There is indeed something of a sweet spot up there, in some cases several. I find that I really like the tone when I play at the spot where there is a harmonic over the 17th fretwire. It's really hard to describe, but I find that there is a rich clarity to the notes plus a lot of "crack" or percussiveness. It's easy to get that cluck sound right at that spot too.

Sure, the scoop isn't really necessary... but I find it so much more comfortable playing a banjo that is scooped that I personally consider it all but necessary. I've owned two banjos that weren't scooped, and if I sat down and played them for a long time I'd get a better feel for them and end up playing them unhampered, but with the scoop I don't even think about it or have to get used to anything.

I typically dislike the high action alternative, as it causes intonation issues (even when you haven't strayed above the money frets). Also, while there may be no money up there, there sure is a playground full of fun.

Mark

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  13:10:34  

I also like the scoop and sis it on one of my banjos. Yes, you can do it yourself. I removed the neck and put it on a mill and slowly removed the wood. I left a bit at the bottom of the neck to make it easier for me to put back on the banjo at the same position. I have heard of other people that have used a bandsaw to remove the wood. Less precise than a mill, but would work.

Ed e

You''re only young once, but you can be immature forever!

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  13:30:34          

I scooped mine with a round-cornered block and some sandpaper. First I used a round file to bottom-out the fret slots, as this depth was my goal, then began sanding. Looks great, works great.

BM

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  15:35:55    

I play over the neck without a scoop and don't have any problems (none related to that anyway). I'm in the it's a "convenience" camp.


Scott LaBounty
Orange, CA

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  16:26:21    

It seems like the need for a scoop depends upon the individual player's attack. When I play over the neck (which is often) I must have either a scoop or a high action, otherwise I bump my thumb and finger on the fretboard. As has been mentioned before, the high action option is not a good one due to intonation problems. As with so many things, it boils down to different strokes for different folks.

Regards,

David West

Fort Collins, Colorado

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  17:22:02    

Having a luthier scoop your banjo would probably run between $50 and $100 depending on how much you want scooped, whether or not side dots have to be dealt with, whether you want it scooped straight across or 'S' shaped, extra thumb notch, etc. Check Arnie Naiman's home page for a pic of a thumb notch he did on a banjo (he did it himself). He got room for his thumb and didn't have to sacrifice his high frets this way. Look at his "5th string bevel" pic.
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=17597

Ray

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." --G. Santayana

Posted - 06/29/2009 :  20:03:22          

The straight across scoop is easy enough to do for anyone who knows woodworking - I would not start with scooping a good banjo as a first wood project. But if you know your way around wood - it is truly an easy job.

I would start by cutting into the fingerboard between the 16th and 17th fret - a bit closer to 16 but leave some room. This prevents the fingerboard wood from chipping all the way back to the 16th fret as you remove the 17th.

YOu don't really have to be too careful removing the frets that will be in the scoop area but it is worth learning to do it right. Start with the last fret as you will be learning as you go. You are going to want that 17th fret to come out fairly easily and without chipping.

Start by cutting under both sides of the fret you are pulling with an exacto knife - use a fresh blade. This is to cut the wood so it is less likely to splinter - it is still going to splinter.

Most modern frets seem to be glued in place so start by touching the fret you want to pull with a soldering gun and slip a pair of dykes under the fret to see how easily it moves - don't pull too hard. If it looks like it is going to be a problem you probably have frets that have been pounded in. If you see glue running but it just doesn't want to move, then you got pounded and glued frets - always a pleasure.

We used to make a set of fret pullers by grinding a set of nippers flat so they went under the entire fret. You can do that or buy a fret puller, or you can do it (more messily) with good sharp dykes.

Remember to start with the last fret so that if you decide you are not meant to pull frets you can have an expert pull that 17th fret.

You want to be able to play with the thumb hitting the place where the 17th fret should be so the frailer hits at the 19th fret. This gives you a great harmonic as you play. You mentioned having Ken Perlman's book. I know he covers getting harmonics in that book as he has Ray Andrews' great version of "Meadowlands" in there. If you've ever seen a movie about Russia, you've heard Meadowlands.

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  08:10:47  

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

The straight across scoop is easy enough to do for anyone who knows woodworking - I would not start with scooping a good banjo as a first wood project. But if you know your way around wood - it is truly an easy job.

I would start by cutting into the fingerboard between the 16th and 17th fret - a bit closer to 16 but leave some room. This prevents the fingerboard wood from chipping all the way back to the 16th fret as you remove the 17th.

YOu don't really have to be too careful removing the frets that will be in the scoop area but it is worth learning to do it right. Start with the last fret as you will be learning as you go. You are going to want that 17th fret to come out fairly easily and without chipping.

Start by cutting under both sides of the fret you are pulling with an exacto knife - use a fresh blade. This is to cut the wood so it is less likely to splinter - it is still going to splinter.

Most modern frets seem to be glued in place so start by touching the fret you want to pull with a soldering gun and slip a pair of dykes under the fret to see how easily it moves - don't pull too hard. If it looks like it is going to be a problem you probably have frets that have been pounded in. If you see glue running but it just doesn't want to move, then you got pounded and glued frets - always a pleasure.

We used to make a set of fret pullers by grinding a set of nippers flat so they went under the entire fret. You can do that or buy a fret puller, or you can do it (more messily) with good sharp dykes.

Remember to start with the last fret so that if you decide you are not meant to pull frets you can have an expert pull that 17th fret.

You want to be able to play with the thumb hitting the place where the 17th fret should be so the frailer hits at the 19th fret. This gives you a great harmonic as you play. You mentioned having Ken Perlman's book. I know he covers getting harmonics in that book as he has Ray Andrews' great version of "Meadowlands" in there. If you've ever seen a movie about Russia, you've heard Meadowlands.

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

---

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  08:43:32  

I'm planted squarely in the middle of the scoop vs. no scoop issue. That being said, at the moment I own a dozen banjos and only one is scooped. When I clawhammer, I play over the fingerboard and generally like the action high enough so that a scooped fingerboard is not necessary. When I fingerpick, I like the action somewhat lower so chording up the neck is easier and clearer. While I can do either on the nonscooped necks, the scoop let's me do both a lot more effectively.

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  09:06:46  

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjot

I'm planted squarely in the middle of the scoop vs. no scoop issue. That being said, at the moment I own a dozen banjos and only one is scooped. When I clawhammer, I play over the fingerboard and generally like the action high enough so that a scooped fingerboard is not necessary. When I fingerpick, I like the action somewhat lower so chording up the neck is easier and clearer. While I can do either on the nonscooped necks, the scoop let's me do both a lot more effectively.

---

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  09:30:46    

You can put your name or initials on the scoop.

Bill.O

www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  11:04:13        

I've been frailing since '62 but only very recently got a banjo with a scoop. Here are my observations, very much in favor of it:

1. For my arm and hand length, the scoop area is a very natural place for me to play.
2. It's a good way to avoid thumping on the head or hitting the frets or fingerboard with the thumb and noting finger - there's nothing under your hand.
3. It extends the range of tonal possibilities and puts me in a mellow sweet spot that I really enjoy.

I recently got a Carlin BC-350. With a skin head and scoop, and I think it has a really beautiful tone. At this point, I think I'd go for a scoop on anything I'm frailing, except a cello banjo, where I use all the frets.

BTW, a huge benefit for me about these discussions is finding out about people I don't know - like Mark Johnson, who commented above and whose music I just checked out and thoroughly enjoyed.

http://www.banjocrazy.com/ - Gold Tone Banjo Dealer - Articles - Interviews
http://elationarts.org/ - Elation Center for the Arts in Southwest Colorado

Edited by - Paul Roberts on 06/30/2009 11:06:41

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  11:44:39      

I think the big issue is that so many new players see scoops and watch people play over the neck without understanding that playing over the neck is not "the standard way" of playing clawhammer (There is none such, of course.) and that scooped banjos are a relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of the scoop being there for playing over the neck. Many great players play over the neck. Many don't. It's a matter of personal style, comfort and choice of sound.

Bill

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  12:23:21  

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

I think the big issue is that so many new players see scoops and watch people play over the neck without understanding that playing over the neck is not "the standard way" of playing clawhammer (There is none such, of course.) and that scooped banjos are a relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of the scoop being there for playing over the neck. Many great players play over the neck. Many don't. It's a matter of personal style, comfort and choice of sound.

Bill

---

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  12:54:22          

I think I might have been in on the early days of the scoop and even though we scooped banjos in the 70s - none of us would even consider playing with a scoop. Our feeling was that if you can't take the high action, you shouldn't be playing clawhammer.

I lived with that attitude until after arthritus put me out of music in the mid 1990s. When I decided I needed music more than I needed to be without pain I bought a new banjo with low action. It was hard playing over teh neck where the banjo lacked a scoop so my next banjo had a scoop - and the one after that. Scoops make it possible for me to do everything I want. I think I've lost a total of 2 notes note (one each in 2 tunes and both can be played well in a lower octave) that I ever hit by having a scoop and that is only because I also have my banjo tuned lower (read capoed higher) than concert pitch.

Looking for a tab? Ask The Woodchuck - If I''ve got it or will do it - you can get it for a buck.
If you are interested in what I say on the hangout you should download a free copy of Rocket Science Banjo - the Advanced Method For Beginning to Intermediate Clawhammer Players. Along with the full text in PDF you will also find the four current RSB videos and the "25 EZ Clawhammer tunes at:
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com

Banjo Brad is still hosting "How To Mold A Mighty Pinky" and some other material at:
http://www.pricklypearmusic.net
A site chock full of interesting banjo material

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  13:16:17        

Read my reply on this thread....I'm no woodworker, but anyone can scoop a neck easily with only hand tools and not removing the neck.
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=151651
BTW; I believe the "look" started when folks started removing their upper frets to donate metal to the war effort (WW1), that's my understanding anyway. You'll notice this on the vintage picture of Uncle Dave's early banjo on this thread. http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=151511

Isaiah 38:20

Edited by - pastorharry on 06/30/2009 13:22:45

Posted - 06/30/2009 :  14:29:40  

quote:

---

Originally posted by pastorharry

Read my reply on this thread....I'm no woodworker, but anyone can scoop a neck easily with only hand tools and not removing the neck.
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=151651
BTW; I believe the "look" started when folks started removing their upper frets to donate metal to the war effort (WW1), that's my understanding anyway. You'll notice this on the vintage picture of Uncle Dave's early banjo on this thread. http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=151511

Isaiah 38:20

Thanks Brother

---

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  08:22:52        

The first banjo I bought does not have a scoop, but I found myself playing over the neck all the time anyway. I don't think it was a purely conscious choice - it just sounded better and felt more natural for me. However, the banjo's action was pretty low and I was having trouble with my thumb strokes. I didn't want higher action for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.So, when I was shopping for a new banjo, I looked for one with a scoop. I really like having the scoop. Playing over the neck somehow gives me a feeling of being better connected to the banjo - more intimate, I guess.

Anyway, I appreciate the info on scooping a neck - I'm no woodworker either, but I know a couple of good ones, so I may ask one of them to scoop the neck on my first banjo.

Mary

"Do not pray for an easy life. Pray to be stronger. Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for powers equal to your tasks."
- Fr. Solanus Casey

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  09:02:44      

"Old Timey" banjo, as a style arrived on the scene in the late 80's or into the 90's sometime. It was NOT around for the Folk Revival of the late 50's and into the 60's (Ahhh, the 60's.. ;-) But I digrees... SO, NO one played clawhammer up over the neck back then, well, almost no one. And we all had that "playing over the head" sound/tone, which is good and solid stuff!
Now WHERE you pluck a string DOES make a difference in tone, no doubt. Think of it in terms of proportion or percentage of the string "behind" your hand... Thefurther from the bridge, the higher the percentage... Note also, BRIDGE placement has changed, too! Older banjos all had their bridges placed about one quarter (that's 25 percent...) from the tailpiece, with the rest (75 percent) between the bridge and the heel of the neck. SO as a result, we were picking further up the string that we may have realized.
In this wonderful modern age in which we live (Get the ref??), especially on the scooped out clawhammer banjoes, bridges are typically 40 to 50 percent out. the bridges are almost in the middle of the head! SO if one is going to pluck in the same place as before the bridge moved, you will end up playing up over the neck--just to get to the same place as before.
Remember, just as where you pluck a string makes a diference, WHERE the bridge is on the head makes a difference in tone! Oh yah!
The real old fretless banjos had NO problem here. Put the bridge any old where and pluck where you want,too. But when frets were added, like anywhere between the Civil War (or here in the South, "The Late Unpleasantness" aka "The War of Northern Aggression"...) and the 1880's, well, all of a sudden everything got nailed down and you couldn't just put things where you wanted without pre-planning.

Now the real resaon for scoops (i.e. not just "I wanna pick *there*."): When you play over the head, you get very accustomed to a certain amount of space between the strings and the head. VERY acustomed... And many fretboards are higher than the level of the head.. See where I'm going? So many of the scoops are just trying to replicate that height between the strings and the head up over the fretboard, so that one may *comfortably* play as before.

SO when you move the bridge further into the middle of the head, you also move the sweet spot for plucking up, and sometimes it moves up over the neck. So you play there, but the fretboard is in the way, so you scoop out the fretboard. Voila, the modern, "Old Timey" banjo, gotta like that oxymoron...

And my scoops are "S" shaped, more scooped on the 5th string side to make room for the thumb, leaving a couple more frets on the 1st string side for use fretting. I start with a dremel on a little router head arrangement (a setup I use for cutting inlays, avail at Stewmac), then sanding and or heavy use of a very favorite tool, a single cut Mill Bastard file (I have 5 or 6 that see much use in all kinds of work on instruments!). My scoops are big enough for ALL the picking to be done over the neck! (Fingers make odd noises when picking really close to the edge of the rim for me...).
I play well down over the head as in the 60's OR totally over the neck. Great differences in tone, etc, but also great fun to play so differently. Sometiimes I vary playing the second time around in a diferent way, sometimes whole songs just do better in one OR the other place. It's music after all, work out how you want to express the song/music.
It's all voodoo to me.

* * * * * *
Brewer
* * * * * *

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  09:52:35  

It's all one's own preference, and scoops are plentiful these days, perhaps even standard equipment.
I find though that with a high enough bridge (I prefer 3/4") I don't really need a scoop. Another possible alternative
is to have a banjo with the last 2 or 3 frets left off ( no scoop) a la the banjos that were being made in the 1890's.

My Ramsey is the only banjo I own that has a scoop, and it is fairly shallow compared to what many other makers are doing.
To each his own.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo
****************************************************
"Drink from the Musselfork once, and you''ll
always come back." -Dr. Bondurant Hughes, 1917

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 07/01/2009 09:53:46

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  10:11:18            

From the early 1960s until the mid '80s, I played both CH and 3-finger (BG-style) in an several bands, and became accustomed to the low action necessary for the latter. When I began to focus on CH style almost 30 years ago, I didn't raise the bridge, as I found the low action to be quite useful to what some have called my "notey" style of play.

I spent most of that time playing over the neck of my 22-fret, 1908 Fairbanks Electric that has very low action, and had no difficulty without the presence of a scoop. When Mike Ramsey sent me his prototype Fairbanks Electric model (based on my original), I was surprised and a bit disappointed to find he had scooped it! However, the more I played it, the more I liked it, and I am now fully accustomed to scoops, and would want them on my personal instruments.

And if I need to play above the 17th fret, I just grab my old Fairbanks...

Cheers,
ZEPP

Posted - 07/01/2009 :  14:16:36    

I would like to see a banjo scooped all the way to the 5th fret!

Just kidding.

I have a HOAB and Jubilee scooped and they both are a pleasure to play.

As mentioned above, I may scoop my Goodtime, but maybe not. I like all the dirt in the 17th - 20th frets caused by my dirty fingers!