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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Patrick Costello's back!!


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scawa - Posted - 05/29/2007:  14:59:12


Pat is back posting video's on YouTube under his Dobro33H and putting out an excellent set of lessons under the title of the DailyFrail at

www.archive.org

He also is blogging again on a web site

http://tangiersound.wordpress.com/


So, those of you that miss the old How and Tao can find him again at the above sites as well as his Pickware site.

Some great stuff for beginners and those of us that are trying to transition from beginners to intermediate clawhammer players.

mojohand - Posted - 05/29/2007:  16:42:49


thanks for the post!

Keepin my skillet good and greasy all the time

uncledelphi - Posted - 05/30/2007:  07:18:53


Be careful with P.C. Get what you can out of his material, and then move on.

leastbest - Posted - 05/30/2007:  07:42:24


Uncle Delphi, could you expand on that a little. I'm relatively new to clawhammer and started with P..C. I have since found a great teacher (from the BHO) and I'm progressing.

What is the problem with Patrick's teaching?

uncledelphi - Posted - 05/30/2007:  07:50:55


leastbest (or anyone for that matter), please send me a private e-mail and I will explain.

oldtimer - Posted - 05/30/2007:  11:01:50


Get Dan Levenson's instructional materials. End of story.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

FretlessFury - Posted - 05/30/2007:  12:58:03


I agree that a lot of Pat's stuff can get you into trouble down the line.

The nice thing is that it's free, so you might want to use the cafeteria approach: take a little of this, and a little of that but keep the mystery meat off your plate.

Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.

mojohand - Posted - 05/30/2007:  13:07:16


I wonder if this is a widely held view of Patrick's material. I found it very good when starting out, then I moved to other materials. Not because I thought his were bad, they just focused on the basics more.

Keepin my skillet good and greasy all the time

banjoholic - Posted - 05/30/2007:  13:16:38


Part of what instructional method to choose depends on what you want to do with clawhammer banjo. Most folks on this forum kind of assume you're learning clawhammer in order to play old-time music, though this may not be the case. Pat's approach is oriented more towards getting you to play folk music in general, and to give you the skills to be able to play and sing, and to play with others in multiple styles (beyond strictly old-time). If your goal is to just play old-time music, then some of the other instructional methods (Levenson, Perlman, etc.) will suit you better.

That being said, Pat can be dogmatic to a fault sometimes, and seems to have a chip on his shoulder about certain things, which at times clouds his better judgment (he has been kicked off this site at least twice). On the other hand, folks on this forum can be pretty dogmatic at times as well. The difference between them and Pat is that his is still the minority opinion.

I like Tom's advice - sample what's out there and see what speaks to you.

Josh

chip arnold - Posted - 05/30/2007:  14:11:23


"The difference between them and Pat is that his is still the minority opinion. "

NO, the difference is that his presentation of his opinion is rude and obnoxious.



Play with a plan
Chip

banjoholic - Posted - 05/30/2007:  14:49:36


That too!

So much for being charitable.

Banjoman - Posted - 05/30/2007:  15:08:51


Let's stick to the topic...Thank you.

Hugh
Playing since 1964

"If the banjo was any good, The Beatles would have used it."- Bill McEuen


Click Here: Banjo Hangout Rules & Guidelines.

Click Here: Bobby Thompson's Home Page

Madgenius - Posted - 05/30/2007:  17:14:30


I have to say I adore PC's stuff, the best I've found for me.

"Music is a joy to me, sometimes living in it is the only safe place to be" Brian May

Treeman - Posted - 05/30/2007:  19:54:10


I found Patrick to be very helpful when I first started on my clawhammer path. When he was on the hangout, I found some of his posts so helpful I saved them on my computer. I have his books also. Without his advise, I would have quit playing.
Thanks Patrick



Luke 1: 46-55

Treeman - Posted - 05/30/2007:  20:10:31


Here is the post that kept me from quitting. I can see why he gets on a lot of people's nerves; but I like his philosophy. This is from 2004-

quote:
The problem has more to do with the approach you all are taking.

Fumbling through a tab file isn't playing a song, it's just memorizing a set of finger movements. You all say that you can play X number of songs, but what can you "do with those songs? Are you jamming? Playing and singing? Can you change keys , change the rhythm or come up with a new lick on the fly?

You guys are not being taught how to play. You are just giving money to banjo teachers and getting zilch in return.

Put away your books. Stop taking lessons. Take a couple of chords and a roll or two and ahook with with some musicians in your area. Sing folk songs and play rhythm. This whole "play lead in a bluegrass band" crap is nice to talk about- but none of you are making any real progress. Nobody could because nobody ever learned to play by tab.

Play simply, learn how to work with the rhythm of a song and start making music rather than sitting around here talking about tone rings. learn how things work, FEEL the music and UNDERSTAND how and why things work rather than just trying to memorize it.

I could have any of you guys jamming in a weekend, and I don't chagre for in person lessons. It's a freaking BANJO. It's a kazoo with strings. If you know three chords you can play a thousand songs. Why are you all so set on making it hard?

Look at the problems you are having. Think things through. If you can't go through the wall go around it, over it, under it, go buy a ladder, get a big hammer. . . there is never a single solution. You just have to think like a musician instead of a banjo player

-Patrick



Luke 1: 46-55

black flag - Posted - 05/30/2007:  20:39:10


Patrick is profoundly clueless about traditional music and not only is he rigid in his own opinions but he is rude and dismissive of anyone who disagrees with him. I left Banjo-L because he was stinking up the place--if he shows up on BHO I'll be the first one out the door. This is a great and generally civilized forum but life is just too short to endure ill-mannered adolescents if you don't need to.

Cheers,
Chris

wormpicker - Posted - 05/30/2007:  20:50:37


I have a feeling that many good people around here are biting their tongues

Paul

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

J-Walk - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:05:24


Ouch! My tongue!!

FretlessFury - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:24:12


A couple of people have stepped up and said that Pat's material has helped them. I think that speaks to the fact that he has some good stuff to say.

But I also find fault in his general assertion that "memorization" should be avoided at all costs. When I think of the musicians I admire most with whom I've had contact, they universally have stories that illustrate that music isn't always just about "fun" and "going with the flow". Playing music well requires a lot of hard, mind-numbing practice. It requires repetition, imitation, memorization moreso than "feeling the music". There is just no way around it.

It's an ironic truth: good music appears effortless and creative to the non-practitioner. It looks like an act of pure creative energy, but when you peal back that romantic facade you find countless, boring hours of repetition and imitation. Being good at the banjo is going to take work. Work is not always fun. Sometimes, you're going to loathe picking up the banjo and practicing that one phrase, or turning on that metronome to refine your timing. These things HAVE to happen in order for a musician to get good.

I think the good things that Pat says, step back from the tab, learn the basic rules of music, build a solid rhythmic foundation before trying anything fancy, are largely right on target. But he has a tendancy to throw the baby out with the bathwater by saying that imitation is bad, memorization is bad, and that if music isn't fun you're not doing it right.

I find also that if you want to play with fiddlers, which is where I consider the heart of old time to be, Pat's approach is going to make things difficult. Pat is really focusing on banjo backup for folk tunes. If that's what you want to learn, he's probably a good source of information. However, if you want to learn how to play with a fiddle, how the banjo and fiddle come together to make that magic old time sound, Pat's approach is going to slow you down. Pat's eschews memorization for understanding the chord structure of a tune, but that can only take you so far in the old time world. It's very much a guitarist's approach, which again is fine if that's what you want to do.

If you want to really dance with the fiddle, to interact with it on that special level, to establish that syncopated push and pull, you're going to have to put the work in. You're going to have sit down, slow down the tunes and learn them note for painful note. It's not always fun, it's not always easy and it certainly doesn't always sound good, but the skills you build while training that muscle memory are the very skills that you enjoy hearing in action when you sit down and listen to your favorite banjo player.

It's a shame that Pat has alienated himself from this community so many times because it would be nice to have his opinions on the topic.



Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.


Edited by - FretlessFury on 05/30/2007 21:28:54

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:30:15


It's amazing. The only thing I have ever done is try to help people and I am constantly badgered by losers.

Sure, I refuse to blindly agree when some idiot with no chops hands out advice - but even that is only because of my love for the craft.

For all of the things being said about me here, I don't see any of you actually contributing anything back to the folk process. You all talk, and you pretend to have a community in this little cesspit on the web - but none of you ever do anything.

That's why you hate me. I have been backing up my talk with actions from day one. My books are best sellers, my free stuff is used around the world and my students are out there right now teaching beginners.

Have fun.


-Patrick Costello

pastorharry - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:35:30


Excellent post, Tom.

Isaiah 38:20 -played on banjo,guitar,dulcimer
http://www.kidspot.org/pastorharry/

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:39:10


quote:
Originally posted by FretlessFury


It's a shame that Pat has alienated himself from this community so many times because it would be nice to have his opinions on the topic.



It takes two to tango. You folks forget that everything I have ever said has been met with screeching and flames by people with no chops.

Like me or not, I really do know my craft. I have done more and seen more musically than almost all of you combined. Yeah, I'm young - but this has been my life for the last twenty years. It gets a bit annoying when somebody who can't count to four lectures me - and when lecturing dosen't work the next step is to get condescending and insulting.

How long am I supposed to take that kind of abuse before I respond in kind?


-Patrick



wormpicker - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:49:34


quote:
Originally posted by Patrick-Costello

It's amazing. The only thing I have ever done is try to help people and I am constantly badgered by losers.

Sure, I refuse to blindly agree when some idiot with no chops hands out advice - but even that is only because of my love for the craft.

For all of the things being said about me here, I don't see any of you actually contributing anything back to the folk process. You all talk, and you pretend to have a community in this little cesspit on the web - but none of you ever do anything.

That's why you hate me.



And there you go. Pretty much sums things up much better than any of us tongue biters could have. By the way, Patrick, before you start labeling anyone an idiot loser with no chops (and personal attacks, incidentally, are against the rules of the forum), you might want to check out the sound files contributed by the likes of Fretless Fury and Chip Arnold. Yup, Patrick's back...

Paul

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

black flag - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:58:10


I. Am. So. Misunderstood...I rest my case--xin loi, Patrick.


Edited by - black flag on 05/30/2007 21:59:08

chip arnold - Posted - 05/30/2007:  21:59:46


Patrick, I for one don't "hate you" but I do think you're rude and obnoxious. You're just a pompous, spoiled little boy. Your implication is that nobody "gets it" but you yet if that were true, the "craft' you profess to "love" wouldn't even exist. You're very quick to give yourself credit and even quicker in denying it to others. People don't dislike you because you "have been backing up my talk with actions from day one'. That's the one thing people DO like about you. People who have had a lesson from you or used some of your materials usually seem to have had a positive experience. It's your little yapping, barking dog routines that aren't enjoyed by people.

Play with a plan
Chip

mike hansen - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:17:08


personally, I learned a few things from Pat, both in person and from his book.

In terms of his conduct on this site and other sites (like Banjo-l)...well, I'll just say this: It always good to have a gadfly around...

THE NAMES
www.myspace.com/ricehouserecords

brokenstrings - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:21:49


OK, cool down, everybody. Rudeness cuts two ways. BHO does not countenance others attacking Pat any more than it does Pat attacking others. So sit back, have a beer, or whatever, and relax.

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

KE - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:23:09


Well, good luck on those two other websites, Patrick.

Yopparai - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:28:03


I should stay out of this, which means I obviously haven't. For all the talk about how flawed and cantankerous Patrick is, I would like to point out the simple fact that HE didn't start THIS particular feeding frenzy. I had the exact same thing happen a while back when I started a thread to point out the four part frailing series he was in the process of producing. A couple of people said thanks and I know for a fact several of them have made great progress with their banjos because of Patrick's work.

Then, like now, someone felt the need to make a vague negative leading comment. Blood in the water that brought more comments, born not from the value of Patrick's material, but from some past gripe or personal conflict with him personally. There was over a page of sniping comments before Patrick showed up to respond in the thread I started.

I don't know the history between Patrick and other members of this community, and frankly I don't care or want to know. Dan, I am not picking on you in any way.. you were just the first name that came to mind... Now if anytime someone posted about some material that Mr. Levenson had produced, the thread degenerated into the kind of comments that I see here, or any other thread about Patrick's stuff, I bet Dan would get mighty miffed. (Just for emphasis, I am not making any inferences about Dan. His name came to mind because someone mentioned it above.)

Maybe Patrick has in the past upset some people personally.. I don't know, and again, I don't care. He sure didn't start it in THIS thread.

Scawa, sorry this happened to your thread, I know exactly how disheartening it is. Patrick's lessons are exactly what some people need to get the basic strum and rhythm, its exactly what some people need to see past tab and details and grasp the music that brought them to the banjo in the first place. Folk song of the day is just plain fun to play along with. If you don't agree, thats fine, but to turn around and dredge up past grievances because someone posted a thread letting people know he is back making videos is not simply disagreeing with him.

Get over it.

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:29:54


quote:
Originally posted by KE

Well, good luck on those two other websites, Patrick.



Why thank you kindly.

I had to close down howandtao.com because the workload got to the point where I literally almost died.

I've quit smoking, gotten the workload under control and things have been great so I decided to start the daily workshops again just for the fun of it.

The new setup has been nice and easy up until today. I was minding my own business teaching people and "blamo" my inbox starts filling up with hate-mail and I have people badmouthing my work here.

I guess it's free advertising - but I can't figure out why these people won't just leave me alone.

-Patrick

mike hansen - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:34:26


Pat, perhaps you can respond to FretlessFurys statment about how you method lacks in term of playing with a fiddler.

THE NAMES
www.myspace.com/ricehouserecords

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/30/2007:  22:37:32


I've been teaching fretted instruments since the 1960s. In that time I've run across a surprizingly large number of "teachers" who are quite content to send their students over the cliff in order to "get back" at the talentless hacks who have been pursecuting ..... etc etc etc.

I strongly suggest that anyone who gets only one book on how to play the banjo get a book one by someone who isn't looking for revenge.

I think that Ken Perlman's beginner clawhammer book is the best organized for the complete beginner, and that Dan Levenson's is excellent too - in fact were I still teaching I would probably use Dan's book even though I never used a book for clawhammer in the past.

I also think that books are not the be all and end all of learning and that in-person lessons from a good teacher are worth more than all the books and DVDs in print. Unfortunately there are people around who never should teach, many of whom have had out a shingle for decades.



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and "F" tuning tabs are now available on the web at: http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
There are mp3s of G tunes in F tuning on the web at http://www.box.net/shared/p06kzxt5lv
Rocket Science banjo is on youtube now. Here are the addresses:
Lesson 1 The Basic Stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Lesson 2 Drop Thumb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7gmyrlvtS0
Lesson 3 The Big Cluck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2iCyrsqr0
Julie Anne Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGonhCTQKfM

FretlessFury - Posted - 05/30/2007:  23:01:17


quote:
Originally posted by Yopparai

There was over a page of sniping comments before Patrick showed up to respond in the thread I started.

[...]

If you don't agree, thats fine, but to turn around and dredge up past grievances because someone posted a thread letting people know he is back making videos is not simply disagreeing with him.

Get over it.



I think it's perfectly legitimate in a thread like this to point out potential pitfalls in instructional material as long as those criticisms are substantive and not personal attacks.

I tried in my post to focus on the details of what I find problematic with Pat's approach. I also tried to point out the things that I like. I don't consider my post "sniping" in any form. I'm challenging an approach to the banjo and offering an alternative point of view. I think that is totally kosher given the way this thread unfolded.

Pat doesn't seem to want an open discussion of his pedagogy, and that's fine. He can do what he wants. Still, I think this is a missed opportunity for him to step up to a challenge of his approach. With the help of mood altering substances of our choice, we could perhaps have a decent discussion about clawhammer banjo and how to teach it.

Why not try?




Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/30/2007:  23:21:47


quote:
Originally posted by FretlessFury

his is a missed opportunity for him to step up to a challenge of his approach.



Okay. I'm game.

You said something about accompanying a fiddle. In order address that I have to ask you two questions:

1.) How is accompanying a fiddle different from accompanying a tuba or any other instrument?

Leave the cultural stuff out of this. Give me a musical example.

2.) How is a "fiddle tune" different from a folk song?

Once again, leave the cultural stuff out of this. Give me a musical example.

-Patrick

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/31/2007:  00:11:07


Fretless is absolutely right - If you publish a banjo method - no matter how "free" it is, then it must be subject to the same rules of criticism as any other method. I've read The How & Tao and as a banjo method find it comes up wanting. I also fell that those of us who find this to be the case have not just the right, but actually the responsibility to say so - especially the teachers. I have objections to some of Dan Levenson's book too, but no one accuses me of attacking him when I state those objections, and Dan defends his methods as methods rather than attempting to paint his critics as frauds.

There is in fact some very useful information in The How - unfortunately there are a lot of deadfalls too - Here is a quote from Patrick Costello that might well illustrate the heart of the problem:

"I could have any of you guys jamming in a weekend, and I don't chagre for in person lessons. It's a freaking BANJO. It's a kazoo with strings. If you know three chords you can play a thousand songs. Why are you all so set on making it hard?"

The mistake here is in the perception of an ability to figure out a simple chord harmony as somehow being superior to being able to figure out and play the melody. It ain't.

I can probably play 2000 songs with three chords and another 2000 with a 4th chord - permit me 5 chords and I should be able to play along with anything short of "Giant Steps". But the fact is I don't wish to limit myself to playing along with a batch of songs - any batch of songs. I want to play around with the actual melody between verses, I want to create a new line to compliment the fiddle, or the accordian, or the harmonica, or the vocal.

I can also play along with almost any tune a jammer calls - even if I've never heard it before. I don't do this by limiting myself to bum did-dying the chords but by listening to, learning and creating an interpretation of the melody on the spot. 3 chords is nice, but it is just a beginning.

One of the big problems I found with many of my banjo students in fact was this ability to come up with some chords and then zone out and not think about the actual tune ever after. The great majority of my students over the years had started with guitar, and were well past the point where they felt any challange in hearing chord changes. Still when it came to learning tunes, they quickly reverted to guitar techniques and simply didn't "get" melody. I've had more than one student use that exact phrase - "I don't get melody." I had to undo the years of guitar playing and teach them how to hear melody before they could even hope to play the banjo as a banjo.

I have nothing against learning some chords and if that is all one wants to do I certainly wouldn't complain about it. I have on several occasions recommended to people that they back off on the scale exercises and play a few folk songs first - get acquainted with the banjo have fun, relax, and let the "work" disappear. Instead of suffering for your art, you are having a good time AND making art. Lighten up. Have some fun. I've even recommended the How and Tao book for that very purpose.

The problem is in not realising the full potential of the instrument or of the player. It isn't a kazoo with strings - it is a banjo, and the banjo is a fully developed musical instrument that deserves to be played for itself, not just as an alternative guitar.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and "F" tuning tabs are now available on the web at: http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
There are mp3s of G tunes in F tuning on the web at http://www.box.net/shared/p06kzxt5lv
Rocket Science banjo is on youtube now. Here are the addresses:
Lesson 1 The Basic Stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Lesson 2 Drop Thumb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7gmyrlvtS0
Lesson 3 The Big Cluck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2iCyrsqr0
Julie Anne Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGonhCTQKfM

gottasmilealot - Posted - 05/31/2007:  00:23:48


I have a problem here. Pat freely puts out a lot of help to those that choose to use it. Like any other person doing the same thing, you may not agree with all of what he says or his approach, but he's a fellow player passing on what he knows to others. That's to be commended. I've learner most of what I know by information passed to me by other players, some good and some not so good, but they offered. Now I do the same for others by showing them what I know. That's the tradition.

Pat, your description of this site as a cesspit on the internet stands to alienate those with whom you have discussions. I makes some angry, and others not want to participate, because they just don't care to deal with your attitude and comments. The good you are doing is offset by the way you handle people. If you really feel this is a cesspit, leave.

I'll ask everyone to treat others as they would like to be treated and stop the attacks or the whole topic will be deleted.

Keith

FretlessFury - Posted - 05/31/2007:  00:29:21


quote:
Originally posted by gottasmilealot


I'll ask everyone to treat others as they would like to be treated and stop the attacks or the whole topic will be deleted.

Keith



Aside from a few zingers, this thread seems civil and substantive to me. I'm looking forward to hashing it out with Pat.




Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.


Edited by - FretlessFury on 05/31/2007 00:31:27

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 05/31/2007:  00:32:42


stanger - Posted - 05/31/2007:  01:23:42


quote:
Originally posted by Patrick-Costello

quote:
Originally posted by KE

Well, good luck on those two other websites, Patrick.



Why thank you kindly.

I had to close down howandtao.com because the workload got to the point where I literally almost died.

I've quit smoking, gotten the workload under control and things have been great so I decided to start the daily workshops again just for the fun of it.

The new setup has been nice and easy up until today. I was minding my own business teaching people and "blamo" my inbox starts filling up with hate-mail and I have people badmouthing my work here.

I guess it's free advertising - but I can't figure out why these people won't just leave me alone.

-Patrick





Hi, Pat...
You just have a way of calling down the lightning and thunder, my friend. I admire the work you've done, and leave the rest to old history! Best of luck in your new enterprise. I'm also glad you are still vertical and suckin' wind, and quit the devil weed. Don't tip over too soon- I always enjoy surprise visits.
regards,
Stanger

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/31/2007:  02:03:10


Patrick Costello said:

"Okay. I'm game.

You said something about accompanying a fiddle. In order address that I have to ask you two questions:

1.) How is accompanying a fiddle different from accompanying a tuba or any other instrument?

Leave the cultural stuff out of this. Give me a musical example.

2.) How is a "fiddle tune" different from a folk song?

Once again, leave the cultural stuff out of this. Give me a musical example.

-Patrick"

Did anyone say that accompanying a fiddle is different from accompanying a tuba or a song? I don't think so, but if they did, they are at least partially wrong - accompanyment is accompanyment and while you might have to make some changes to best deal with a specific instrument, or set of instruments, or voice, etc. the idea is always the same.

There are some structural differences between most fiddle tunes and most folk songs but those differences are not something many people find troublesome enough to prevent them from doing both.

There is, however more to playing the banjo than accompanyment. The banjo can be a full partner to voice, fiddle, tuba, whatever - but that takes more than knowing a few back up chords. The banjo can also be a great solo instrument - again it takes more than a few chords.

I understand that you've been barred from the hangout in the past but it seems to me that if you were to keep your replies to the issues and leave out the attacks the moderators probably won't seal you off. So why not discuss the issues - as you did in the post I quoted - and stick around? It's a whole lot easier to defend your ideas if you are around to defend them.




The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and "F" tuning tabs are now available on the web at: http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
There are mp3s of G tunes in F tuning on the web at http://www.box.net/shared/p06kzxt5lv
Rocket Science banjo is on youtube now. Here are the addresses:
Lesson 1 The Basic Stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Lesson 2 Drop Thumb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7gmyrlvtS0
Lesson 3 The Big Cluck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2iCyrsqr0
Julie Anne Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGonhCTQKfM

5-String Dan - Posted - 05/31/2007:  02:15:49


You know, I'm on Banjo-l, and I've seen Pat's website, and he almost seems like two different people. The kind of stuff I've found in Pat's books, videos, sound files, etc. has saved my butt in jams, and teaches important lessons like know your stuff, and it's ok to be simple. On the other hand, in discussions, he seems a bit aggressive.

Now, I unfortunately don't get the chance to jam with mainstream old-time or bluegrass folks much, and of the people I do jam with, I may well be the best fiddler (you'd understand the tragedy of this if you ever heard me attempt to play a fiddle) but the "know the basics, find the spirit (or "tao" if you will) of the music, relax, and go with it" approach seems to work wonderfully when jamming with people who seem to have an equal appreciation for Earl and Ozzy, and I think I could learn a lot from Pat, but on the other hand, I'm kind of afraid to ask him...

oldtimer - Posted - 05/31/2007:  02:25:07


Holey Cow! I go off and play for a few hours, come back on-line and the place has turned into a chaotic war zone. I've been through this before....more than a few times. I'm thinking "borderline personality disorder". Look it up.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/31/2007:  02:41:48


quote:
Did anyone say that accompanying a fiddle is different from accompanying a tuba or a song?



Yup.

"Fretless Fury" (can we drop the goofy handles and use real names?) wrote:
"I find also that if you want to play with fiddlers, which is where I consider the heart of old time to be, Pat's approach is going to make things difficult."

That implies that playing with a fiddler is "different".

If my handling of the fiddle issue is the reason "Fretless" told people to stay away from my work then it's only fair to ask him to elaborate on the issue.

It's also only fair to clear out the amorphous "regional style" answers that every scoundrel hides behind on these forums and keep things in terms of general musicianship.

If he has a genuine concern with my teaching methods those two questions should be easy enough to answer.

If he was just trying to hurt me with a nonsense statement about the fiddle . . . nah, the nice folks here wouldn't stoop to something that low . . .

-Patrick

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/31/2007:  03:46:33


I probably should step out and let Fretless answer this - BTW our actual names tend to be known - if they aren't on our posts, click on a screen name and you'll go to teh page with what many people would feel is far too much information - I don't think too many people here are trying to be anonymous snipers - we just use nicknames. I've been called Woodchuck since the early 80s when I had a group called "Woodchucks In Babylon". Tony Spadaro is my given name.
But I digress - accompanying a fiddle is pretty much the same thing as accompanying a voice or tuba, but being half of a fiddle banjo partnership is a completely different animal. The banjo & fiddle are a perfect match - especially for southern tunes, but my wife and I have a pretty hot version of "Saint Anne's Reel" too - the tension and attraction between the two instruments is almost sexual - it is definately sensual.
I won't say it is impossible but it is definately harder to achieve the full effect (the congress if you will) of the two instruments if the banjo is not fully participating. Chunking chords against a fiddler playing drones, or playing chord substitutions against the rather stark dorian mode harmony of many old time tunes interferes with the congress. Playing in the wrong tuning limits the banjo ability ot set out rhythm markers which also tends to dilute the experience.
Last night we went out to jam with friends. They are another couple - she plays fiddle and he the harmonica. They do old time, jug band, country blues, and some straight out folk material (American, Irish and English). The usual instrumentation when we're together is 2 fiddles harmonica and banjo with the harp player sometimes adding in autoharp or slide mandolin. In fact these last two instruments handle most of the chords. This is a situation where the four of us play as intimately as two. All of us - each of us, has to adapt to all the others or it simply would not work. It takes a lot of effort and study and practice to sound this good. It isn't something one is born doing.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and "F" tuning tabs are now available on the web at: http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
There are mp3s of G tunes in F tuning on the web at http://www.box.net/shared/p06kzxt5lv
Rocket Science banjo is on youtube now. Here are the addresses:
Lesson 1 The Basic Stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Lesson 2 Drop Thumb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7gmyrlvtS0
Lesson 3 The Big Cluck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2iCyrsqr0
Julie Anne Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGonhCTQKfM

Patrick-Costello - Posted - 05/31/2007:  04:09:10


Come on, Tony. You didn't answer my question. All you did was state your personal preferences.

Instead of telling me what you like or dislike try approaching this from the standpoint of music.

If you and Fretboy are going to harp on me about fiddlers then give me something concrete. Just waving your arms in the air and farting out some nonsense about sexual tension is pretty insulting to me and everybody else reading this.


-Patrick



R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/31/2007:  05:41:27


About time a moderator showed up.

quote:
Originally posted by gottasmilealot

I have a problem here.
I'll ask everyone to treat others as they would like to be treated and stop the attacks or the whole topic will be deleted.

Keith



Well? How about it then?
******************************************

"Badgered by losers"

"Some idiot with no chops"

"This little cesspit on the web"

"That's why you hate me"

"I have done more and seen more musically than almost all of you combined"

"...when somebody who can't count to four lectures me"

"can we drop the goofy handles...?"

"If you and Fretboy..."

"...farting out some nonsense..."

*************************************************

So? How much does it take?










R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

eickmewg - Posted - 05/31/2007:  06:33:12


This looks like banjo-l all over again. My heart sinks every time I see Patrick Costello's name. I bear him no ill will but I wish he would go away.

Bill

'05 Lee Rose Hill 12", #165
'06 Romero 13" custom walnut, #0684

BConk - Posted - 05/31/2007:  06:33:33


Oy - here we go again!


Brian
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists...4644&alid=-1

atracksler - Posted - 05/31/2007:  06:38:48


I like everyone involved in this. Patrick, Tom, Tony and RD.

I was walking through the woods a week or so ago with Bob Carlin. We were talking about learing the banjo. I equated it to learning to cross country ski. You can get skis and in the matter of a few hours, you can get up to speed and learn how to ski. You can be happy at this level forever. There are people who may never want to progress past this point. That is totallly fine and legitimate. There are other peole who want to progress further and refine their technique and learn new techniques, they are not skiing any more than the person in the first example. They are skiing differently.

Bob Agreed with me.

I like Patricks books, when I was starting out they helped me a lot. I decided to help him and record some chapters for the "book" he was making for the blind. I think it is a legitimate method to play. There are a lot of people that want to earn how to play "Mountain Dew" and play once in a while with some folks playing guitar and a kazoo and make some music (me at one point). They are fine at that level. There are other people that want to progress further (me now), thats fine too..

If you learn 3 chords and can play with some folks, thats great. God Bless you. You make yourselff and some other people happy. If you can drop thumb and ppick up every song in the "Most obscure fiddle tune" jam, then God bless you as well.

It occured to me that the "Canon of Old Time Music" is an artificial thing that was created during the Lomax era of tune hunting and gathering. -- but this isnt the place to get into this....I will start a new thread on that....

Music is music.

A kid with a banjo in his/her hands is a kid that doesnt have a no-frendo joystick in their hands.

Just my 2 cents.



P.S. Have a Nice Day!
http://www.brycecreative.com

Madgenius - Posted - 05/31/2007:  06:39:48


I think a lot of you guys are being WAY to hard on Patrick. Somebody who gives of himself so freely and so willingly to try and encourage people to make music should be congratulated, not castigated because you don't like the way he speaks sometimes.

Patrick has got a LOT of people playing who otherwise wouldn't be. If they then go off in a different direction using some other form of instruction then great. But kindly DO NOT attack someone for sharing music just because a lot of you play in a different style then him.

For the record I don't see any of you teaching freely over the web. Either piss or get off the pot

Danny

"Music is a joy to me, sometimes living in it is the only safe place to be" Brian May

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