FXHERE - Posted - 08/27/2006:  17:14:45

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What do you think of the ODE as a collector banjo. They were the best built banjos of their time in a lot of peoples opinion..Havent been built since the early 80s and are american made..I would love to own a style D.. Let me know---Thanks Doug

No such thing as a bad sounding banjo

mponzi - Posted - 08/27/2006:  19:11:02

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How do you define "collector" banjo? I would have to say requres a combination of rarity and demand. Not many around, but everybody wants them. It also helps to have a cult following like the one Earl Scruggs and others created around Gibsons.

Odes are great banjos, but I don't know I'd put them in the collector category at this point. Who knows, maybe some day. But right now, if you wanted to buy one, you should probably do so because you want a player.

Just my opinion.

Marshall

Bill Rogers - Posted - 08/27/2006:  19:30:58

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Not close to being collectible. Simply not enough demand. Probably won't ever be. They don't have the "bluegrass sound" in the minds of too many. And collectible banjos, outside the incredibly fancy ones, must be wanted as players as well as to put away in a case. I don't think Odes have even kept up with inflation.

Bill

Gronk - Posted - 08/27/2006:  19:55:03

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There's an enthusiastic corp of Ode lovers (I'm one) but it seems to be that there are plenty in circulation to satisfy demand. A Baldwin model C went on eBay today for $1,025.

stanger - Posted - 08/27/2006:  20:26:19

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Hi, Bill...
I'm on the other side of the fence from you on this one, but I'm a big Ode fan, and have been for many years. There is a substantial group of professionals who played Odes, but by and large the group is younger and less known at the moment. The most widely known players are Bobby Thompson, John Hartford, Roy Clark.

But there are many more players known only to the banjo community who played one- Vic Jordan, Lynn Morris, Mike Lilly, Jimmy Henley, Larry McNeely, and others who used them. A lot of folk musicians used them, too, with Taj Mahal, Roger McGuinn and Steve Stills being the most famous... all were folkies in their day and still play their Odes.

At the moment, Gibson reigns supreme, but this generation of players is aging, and banjo popularity skipped a generation. The young players, if they get into collecting at all, may well have different standards as to what constitues bluegrass sound than the present one. Who knows who sill surface as a prime influence, in players and instruments, in the next 20 years or so?

As just a banjo, I know my D always gets a lot of interest from players old and young when I take it out. I took it to a local festival yesterday, where a good young player in his early 30's, who had a Stelling Staghorn, was really tipped over by it. Tonally, it went head to head with his banjo, too.

As a collectible, Odes have steadily and slowly risen in the market. I bought my D on eBay 8 years ago, and they were regularly sold there for some time, but it has been quite a while since I've seen a 5-string offered there now, and whenever they come up, they go for 3 times more than I paid for mine. The C Model's prices spiked about 3 years ago after a steady rise, and have remained at a steady level since then, and there are a lot more of them. All the D's I've seen offered in the past 2-3 years have been from dealers, and most players who own them are hanging on to them now. I think I'm not the only one who believes they'll increase in value over the next few years.

There are more Odes around than pre-war Gibsons, and they are a more durable banjo. The company has a very interesting history, a wide variety of banjos, and enough banjos to be a presence in the market. Like Gibson, some Odes are extraordinarily rare, and all are very high quality. They have a very loyal following, and they have detractors. Odes may never be the next big ticket collectible, but they sure have all the qualities that interest collectors.

Time will tell.
Regards,
Stanger
(I own 3, with a 4th coming)

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Edited by - stanger on 08/27/2006 20:28:49

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/27/2006:  20:37:41

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Stanger:

I could not have said it better myself! I have owned a D model since the middle 70's (still in mint condition) and love the banjo. I have not played it much due to the fact that I have other banjos to play and just didn't need to. But, I liked it enough to hang on to it. Certainly, it is heads and shoulders above what Gibson was making during that particular timeframe. I suspect that it will one day be quite collectible.

pick1936 - Posted - 08/28/2006:  00:22:42

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The Baldwins,, and Odes, are collectable,, But even more so is The Imperial, not as many made,, and will be very collectable..



pick the banjer son.

Lee Kelso

stanger - Posted - 08/28/2006:  01:40:10

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Hi, Lee...
It's hard to predict which, if any, makes are going to be the hot ones of the future. Imperials are good banjos, but they never had a prominent player boosting them. If the past is any kind of guide, there have to be enough instruments made, and enough survive, to be able to get on the radar screen in the first place. Lane banjos, as an example, developed a following in the 80's, and got some notice because Eddie Adcock and Hub Nitchie both played them, but lots of newer players know nothing of them at all now.

I suspect that only Ode and California Fenders were produced in enough numbers to make a blip on the screen.

All that blather above I posted is just my gut feeling. We've both been around long enough to know when the collector's market didn't amount to doodely-squat... that was less than 20 years ago, and collectors were mostly gutar players then.

I just read a post in another thread that said that the Gibson pre-war is, and should be, the standard. No doubt it is right now, while there are a bunch of baby boomers who have the money to spend, but the 'should be' part bothered me, because I truly believe that the 30's Mastertones have some serious durability issues.

Eventually, there will be a shift in what constitues 'should be'... there have been quite a few in the last 100 years of banjo making. It's also important to remember that the most collectable Gibsons right now were made in a 10 year period of a history that goes back over 100 years. Who knows what's going to be a standard in the future, when these are gone?

As soon as the boomers start needing to sell their banjos, we'll see if Gibson collectibilty sticks or if the scene these days is another Dutch tulip craze. Archtop guitars have already boomed and busted in the past 10 years with the same age group.

For now, Odes and Imperials are afforadable alternatives, have great tone, durabilty and playability. Like Marshall said- buy 'em for the players they are, and wait and see what happens. I think that there are a lot of great banjos around that are undervalued and overlooked, and now is the prime time to take advantage of the situation.
regards,
Stanger
who just popped for a Gibson ball-bearing, the banjo of the future...

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Edited by - stanger on 08/28/2006 01:57:24

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/28/2006:  09:41:05

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Stanger:

I still agree with you. One of the hardest things in "collecting" is figuring out what the next "collectible" will be. If it was easy to do, then everyone would know which "widget" to start buying. As a general rule, I don't buy anything (instruments or antiques) that are either produced as a "collectible" or are still being made and someone has to tell you is a "collectible". Buy stuff you like and you will never have to worry about whether it becomes a collectible or not.

The best items I have were bought when I could not afford them and were just run of the mill "stuff" at the time (like my Martin OM-18 I bought for $200).

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Edited by - BanjoLink on 08/28/2006 15:36:50

FXHERE - Posted - 08/28/2006:  09:54:10

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Thanks to all for their imput. AS Gronk said a Baldwin sold for 1025.00 on ebay..I bought it..I will take all i can find for 1025.00. That is way below market..Even the Chinese banjos are selling for this and more..Dont forget Curtis Mcpeake and Buck Trent as Ode players. Yes Curtis Mcpeake-- the Gibson Guru--When he was with Danny Davis and I have it on tape ..He had a Fmodel like Rual Yarboro had..I have several Odes and several other makes as well..I enjoy them all--Doug

No such thing as a bad sounding banjo

stanger - Posted - 08/28/2006:  11:41:08

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Hi, Doug...
I agree completely. Odes, Baldwin Odes and Omes are all WAAAY undervalued. If you compare your C to a Gibson of the same time period, there is little doubt as to which one is better. The Ode simply has more features, better construction and better overall quality and playability. If you jump to 1974- 32 years ago- you see the same thing in an Ome Juggernaut; more and better everything. To me, there is simply no way a Gibson from the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's can compare in quality.

I don't have anything against Gibson banjos, either- in fact, I just got one yesterday that most Gibsonites would immediately hack up- a 1925 ball-bearing that's gonna keep it's tone ring, springs and bearings until the bitter end. I love their tone, and I'm not interested in trying to sound like Earl at all. This old banjo will keep on ticking forever- it was built when Gibson wasn't trying to cut costs.

I harp on the durability factor all the time when I talk about vintage banjos because I think it is widely overlooked. But if some of the people who are currently spending thousands more on banjos with critical pot metal parts would think about their investments more carefully, a lot of undervalued vintage banjos would be looked at more closely. it is crazy to me to think of spending any money on a banjo that is held together by a part that is disintegrating- I would much sooner accept a different tone for assurance my banjo will still be perfectly intact and playable in the next 10 or 20 years.

The tone thing has so much voodoo fogging it now that I think it's useless. Go with something that attracts you, and find your own singular tone in it.
regards.
Stanger

hicotton - Posted - 08/28/2006:  17:32:54

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Well Doug, I'm glad it went to you and for the record, I think you got a heck of a good deal on that C. I was really, really tempted to bid on it. If you don't wwant to hang onto it, let me know - I'm just down the road from you.
I'm not qualified to speculate on Odes as the next hot collectible - but, I will say that for the quality, sound, and playability, they are a great value. My Ode 'D' has everything that I wantedd in my keeper banjo - American made, walnut, quality components and fitting, and clean, clear tone - finally, like Stanger said - it always get compliments when I bring it out (now if only my playing could match it!).
clay

True wisdom comes from God; from him we learn how to live, and also what to live for. Job 12:13

sideways - Posted - 08/28/2006:  21:35:30

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I have an Ode "C" and a Fender Artist. Both are early production models and both have the slim neck. I didn't buy them so much as an investment, just bought them because they sounded good, felt good, and were about the same price as a Chinese POS.

Gronk - Posted - 08/28/2006:  22:23:05

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FXHERE, congratulations on your buy. I saw that the heel on that banjo will be more user- friendly.

beegee - Posted - 08/29/2006:  01:02:04

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Anything is collectible if you want to collect it. Now, holding it hoping for an increase in value is another matter. Until the Odes and Omes and Baldwins and fenders are appreciated for their sound and workmanship, Gibson will continue to be the collectible of choice. Even though there are more fakes than real Gibsons, that doesn't seem to faze the banj0-buying public. Perception becomes reality.

FXHERE - Posted - 08/29/2006:  09:11:18

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Hi Cotton--Got an email from Tommy George and all it said was Baldwin King...

No such thing as a bad sounding banjo

old dog - Posted - 08/29/2006:  09:24:07

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I bought an Ode D back in about 1980 new for 1000 bucks. It was a great banjo, and I played it for about 6 years and then sold it to a professional picker for 1000 bucks. If I wanted it back now, it would cost me at least twice that, and there is one on eBay at the moment for 2500. I'm no math whiz, but something tells me I should have held on to it.

John Allison - Posted - 08/29/2006:  09:57:11

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Mike,
Totally agree with everything you said. I have had my ODE for three years now and picked it out (sound wise) over a Gibson that I was considering buying. Never gave it a second thought. It has the sound I want, the projection is great and I have been offered more today than what I paid three years ago. Would I sell it .... no, this is a keeper.

Froggie

black flag - Posted - 08/29/2006:  11:00:12

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I think that "real" (pre-Baldwin) wood rim Odes are already very collectible, especially the fancier ones.

Chris

frailin - Posted - 08/29/2006:  11:06:41

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My 20-YO son took my 70's-something Ome Grubstake (with resonator) to Rockygrass. While playing around with different groups, he had two offers on it... both from younger players (BTW - it's NOT for sale). Which, picking up on Stanger's earlier comments, raises several interesting thoughts.

1. Today's generation of bluegrassers (kids) see the banjo as cool.



My kid AND his R&R buds dropped their Stratocasters and completely unplugged to pick up the "5-string woman repellant." Which, if you follow their social lives, I'm happy to say ISN'T the case. In fact, playing the banjo has made all of them MORE popular in the eyes of women and more respectable in opinions of fellow musicians.

2. That's all a VERY good thing! I'm all in favor of losing the banjo jokes. Elsewhere on BHO there's a thread relating to "is the banjo past its stereotype?" (or something like that). I'd be pleased to offer "yes." The only place I see/hear disparaging remarks is either here (on BHO... we tease ourselves) or in BG circles where, according to mammalian behavior, something/someone has to be low-man on the totem pole.

3. "It's about the sound, stupid." Typical of "X" generation and "Millenium" behaviors, what is in place (as a standard) is subject to debate, scrutiny and experimentation.



Yep, to OUR generation, Gibsons still rule in BG and Whyte Laydies/tubaphones to the OT crowds. I got my son a '98 RB-250 just so he can hear/play the standard (BTW - he still maintains a soft spot for Omes and will probably go back/pick up another at some point). But if you see/hear what younger bands are playing with today, all bets are off. They could be sporting a new Chinese instrument. A Nechville. Or something they cobbled together on their own. Personally, I've seen an uptick in Omes and Odes. So much so, I watch for them now... as a collectable. Gibson serves as the benchmark, but the BG and OT newbies want their own sound. And that hunt is now on! Woo-hoo!!

Ok. That's waaay too much thought outside of work for a Tuesday AM.

Craig

frailin.com
myspace.com/frailin
myspace.com/singletonstreet

FXHERE - Posted - 08/29/2006:  13:05:18

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Thanks Graig for the post and I am glad to see the younger people that are in bluegrass today..I may get some flack but I think its a better group of people to be with than out on the streets..It gives them confidence and self esteem..I make banjos and Martin style guitars and iI have given 5 away to young pickers and I will be paid someday--Doug

No such thing as a bad sounding banjo

frailin - Posted - 08/29/2006:  13:42:53

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Good for you, Doug!! (on giving instruments away). I've been doing the same with banjos (1), mandos (1) and fiddles (2) for a few years now. Haven't seen a dime in repayment, and frankly, not sure I'll ever see my money back. But it's MORE than worth it. Hearing a kid play, watching their face reflect the joy of a newly honed skill is enough payback for me. 'Course I won't tell them that.



Aside from faith in God above, there isn't a much better life-long gift to give than music.

Craig

frailin.com
myspace.com/frailin
myspace.com/singletonstreet

stanger - Posted - 08/29/2006:  14:27:15

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Hi, Craig...
full agreement here! Few Gen X'ers (age 30-40) picked up the banjo, but kids 20-30 who followed them are, and teens seem to be, too. Their ideas of what's good are definitely different from the boomer players, in instruments and music alike.

I think an interesting phenomenon will develop with this bunch. Like any young group, they are bound to be influenced to some degree by older group's advice and comments. Gibson's banjo marketing fiasco has left a deep distaste with a lot of the boomer players, not so much for their banjos as how they did their business selling them. The boomer's Gibson bashing may leave a big hit a few years down the road as the bashing becomes legend for the kids.

I wonder what if that will develop new voodoo with kids as they age. All the dancing on the head of a pin older players do about pre-war stuff tends to leave the young players I know cold... they couldn't be more indifferent. Like you said, they have their own notions of what's cool, and they couldn't care less about where a banjo was made.

It's like the boomer love of muscle cars. The kids now would rather spend the same money on a juiced Honda than on a vintage GTO.

For sure, Ome has a vibe going with the younger players, especially in their openbacks... the Ome company, (including earlier Ode) has a 50 year tradition of ex-mountain hippies building killer banjos in a small little shop, and they make models from very plain to over the top. Ome has an advantage of always being in Boulder, which has a cutting edge tradition as a college town, and word gets out from there widely among the kids.
regards,
Stanger

frailin - Posted - 08/29/2006:  15:46:49

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Hey Mike:

Agree completely. I get especially jazzed about Ome when thinking how the newbies will respond to Chuck Ogsbury... once they learn of him. Even at almost 70, Chuck could be one of them! He thinks in terms of what can be... and where that can go rather than try to recreate some dimly-recalled past history.

I ordered a new open-back banjo from Chuck (in person) last April. He brought out 2 new tailpiece ideas he was working on to see if I had any input or interest in having them installed on my banjo. This after probably building at least 250 of the same banjo over the past 25 years. You should have seen the excitement in his face! This guy is so ethusiastic about what he's doing, he could never just accept status quo. Couple that experience with similar "out there/push-the-envelop" thinking that came up with aircraft-grade aluminum pots way back when. Who woulda' thunk it!? Go Chuck!!

If I were a gamblin' man, I'd put money on Ode/Ome being THE most highly desired banjo by the next generation of players. Imagine, banjos being revered as much by what they represent - the open-minded, creative thinking that went into them - as their playability and voice.

If John Galt made a banjo, I'm sure it would be an Ome.

Craig

PS - Hang tough, Tom Nechville. Your time is coming!


frailin.com
myspace.com/frailin
myspace.com/singletonstreet

BANJO TONY - Posted - 08/29/2006:  16:14:53

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The best sounding banjo I own is a 1980 ODE model C,it blows away my Gibson & my Deering,

hicotton - Posted - 08/29/2006:  23:33:25

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Hi Cotton--Got an email from Tommy George and all it said was Baldwin King...

Well Doug - sometimes Tommy is a man of few words and I have to pay close inspection to what he says, but he is an Ode collector and authority - not to mention an outstanding luthier. He and I talked about your eBay 'C' this past Saturday at a jam and I think we were both looking over our shoulders to be sure that the other one wasn't running off to make a bid on it Just don't mention it to him if you consider re-selling - call me first!





True wisdom comes from God; from him we learn how to live, and also what to live for. Job 12:13

stanger - Posted - 08/30/2006:  00:22:56

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Good post, Craig!
A very good friend of mine knows Chuck well and has worked for him in the past. He says Chuck is a real collaborator who is open to any and all ideas. He loves to argue new ideas through and go out to the shop and try to put something together afterwards. He's been like this from the very first, and his concepts show his thought process. When he designed his second series of aluminum rims, he cast the rims so that, by just milling down various parts of the rim, and turning some of the parts over, he could produce 2 archtop and 2 flathead designs which all sounded different.

He learned woodworking after he started making banjos. He has a mechanical engineering degree, and knew how to work metal, but not wood, so he went all over Boulder asking who the best cabinet maker was. He found one guy who was recommended more than the others, and he went to him- more collaboration and concensus. He has always favored making laminated necks because they are stronger and less prone to warping than single pice necks, and all of his stuff shows his concerns with issues like this. He bows to buyer's desires because he has to make banjos that will sell, but makes very few compromises. I think his current crew is some of the the best he ever had, too.
regards,
Stanger
and Tommy George said it well- Baldwin King

grownedhawg - Posted - 08/30/2006:  07:48:27

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Greetings, Stanger!

Since this topic has swayed to talk of the "younger generation" I just had to slip this question in:

What kind of banjo does the wonderful Dame Darcy play? The photos I've seen of her are never clear enough to read the headstock, but it's always a resonator Masterclone-lookin' thing.

Just curious. I'm also a "thirtysomething" and a big fan of her artwork; I'm still thinking about putting away some cash so I can commission the Dame to draw/paint something original on a banjo head (for display only). She'd be my number one choice for the project!

I'd love to get my hands on an OME GRUBSTAKE model; I've seen/heard descriptions, but never played one. I'm one of those Gen-Xers who believes Deering Goodtime banjos are a new "standard" in what can be accomplished with simple, thoughtful design, and (in my imagination) I see the Goodtime as a descendant of what I understand the Grubstake to be: all you need to make banjo sounds, and nothing you don't need. For some of us, the value of simplicity trumps tradition, provided that the neck is playable and resultant sounds are pleasant.

Thanks for Reading, Kirk

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Edited by - grownedhawg on 08/30/2006 10:03:17

stanger - Posted - 08/30/2006:  12:37:40

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Hi, Kirk!


Not many folks here connect me to my daughter!
We're both artists. She started drawing with me when she was two, and I started teaching her to play when she was about 11. To tell the truth, I don't know what brand her banjo is! She bought it while enrolled at the San Francisco Institute of Art in about 1989, and she never brings it with her when she comes home for visits because I always have enough banjos on hand for her to play, and she just picks one out while she's here.

We recently talked about banjos- hers is a real hunk o' junk, and I'm planning on taking the resonator off one of my Ibanez prototypes and giving it to her. She wants a lighter banjo, and an openback will be good for her playing style. Here's a pic of the banjo- it's one of her faves. I designed it in 1978, and the Ode/Ome influence is obvious.

I'm sure she would love to do a banjo head for you... I expect she'll be calling me when you send her a head for some technical advice.
regards,
Stanger
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

grownedhawg - Posted - 08/31/2006:  06:40:58

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Hi, Mike! Thanks for writing back

Your daughter is indeed a fortunate lady; to have her pick of banjos to play, and then eventually take one home...very nice. I bet the inlay on that Ibanez is totally her style.

I'm still thinking about a commission, but I can't finesse my budget just yet. I imagine I'd have her depict a scene with a log cabin; there's something special about the way she renders wood grain in black and white. No joke, I love to get lost in the wavy-line wood grain whenever she draws floorboards or deck planks...neat stuff!

In case others are reading this: Dame Darcy (Stanger) is a painter/crafter/musician/filmmaker/ comic book artist (amongst others things) who is fairly prolific and well-respected in the comics community. She has several times illustrated comic book stories in collaboration with Alan Moore, probably the most renowned writer in the business. No joke, no hype; having Alan Moore ask her to draw one of his scripts would translate (roughly) into the phrase "Earl Scruggs asked her to play some solos on his new album."

Okay, I know we've moved from the original thread topic, so I'll digress no more. Anyway , thanks for being there

Sincerely, Kirk

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Edited by - grownedhawg on 08/31/2006 07:50:09

stanger - Posted - 08/31/2006:  13:08:28

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Hi, Kirk...
I'll pass this stuff on to Darcy.

Back to the subject at hand... I just got a 1964 Ode longneck from a friend. It arrived yesterday, and is the second '64 I own now. The first is the first good banjo I ever bought and was my only banjo for over 14 years. The pot got a new neck in 1979, and I still have the original neck, but it hasn't been on the pot for 20 years now, and shouldn't go back on until it has a complete refret and neck scrape done.

My brand-new old one was either never played very much, or was played by somone who likes to keep their banjos clean, because it is in excellent shape. It's a grade up from my old outfit- an astonishingly beautiful lrosewood neck, rosewood resonator that's lighter in color, ebony board with block inlays, and goregous tone. It came with the old 5th string Ode capo, and was originally sold resonated.

It was very interesting to hold when I first pulled it out of the case. My hands immediately recognized the feel of the banjo. Usually when I get a new one, it takes me about a week to be real comfotable with it, but not this one... there is truth to muscle memory.

Playing a longneck again after so many years is a real revelation. The banjo balances nicely with the resonator, and the tone of that open neck- deep and low, with a lot of fullness but keeping that distinct crispness that the old Odes have- is just too cool. I think more old-time players should check these things out, because they are much faster to change keys with than retuning. And with the zero fret, the capo never has to come off the banjo or be stashed above the nut.

Here are a couple of pics. The banjo came from Elderly a while back- that's who my pal got it from.
regards,
Stanger
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/31/2006:  17:55:37

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Stanger:

The best banjo I have ever heard, bar none, is a pre-war whyte ladye with a long neck made by Ode in the 60's. I don't know if it is just the pot or the additional mass of the neck, but the sound was incredible.

stanger - Posted - 08/31/2006:  19:15:50

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Hi, Link...
I just discovered the other day that Chuck sometimes did conversions in his early days. I wonder if the banjo you mentioned was one of them?
regards,
Stanger

okbanjobill - Posted - 09/01/2006:  10:33:54

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In the past year I have became Ode, Ome, Baldwin concious, thanks to Mike Stanger, and Ed Britt answering my posted questions while I was researching a somewhat related banjo. (sho bud distributed by Gretsch). After all my pestering questions, that the two of them were always glad to respond to, I have acquired a 64 rosewood aluminum pot, much like the above picture of Mikes. ( very nice looking banjo Mike). I also have an Ode C that sounds excellent. I had a single X which I sold, and now I can't figure out why the heck I did that. I just returned from a trip up to South Dakota and I took my 64 with me and stopped off at OME in Boulder for Chuck to have a look at it. I'm here to tell you his eyes brightened up when I pulled it out of the case. He concluded it was 100% original and in very good condition. It was a thrill for me to have him hold it in his hands after 42 years and play it as well. Another customer was there and wanted to know if I brought it to trade it in. That happened to be Ken Pearlman (an added bonus to the afternoon)! It was not easy after marveling at all the OME's hanging on the wall , to not take just one extra one home! As long as Imperials were mentioned above, I have a couple of the early block rim models that I like very much, but they as well as many other brands have their own unique sound.

Bill

BanjoLink - Posted - 09/01/2006:  12:56:11

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Stanger:

This conversion was done when my friend (I think) lived in Colorado or near there. I first saw the bano in the arly 70's, but I believe it was done when my friend was in college and the ""folk craze" was in it's heyday. That would have to have been in the early to middle 60's. I am not sure when Ode was started, but it seems it would have to be a real early one.

I need to call my friend and see if he still has it. I doubt if he plays it anymore or cares anything about it. He also has an RB-800, with the cherry sunburst finish - I'd rather have the Ode/Vega!

keithmcgreggor - Posted - 09/01/2006:  13:36:52

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What's a late 70s Style D in killer condition worth? I've got one (I'm the original owner) and I flirt with letting it go every now and then...

- Keith

Daniel D. Tedder - Posted - 09/01/2006:  16:42:35

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Hey Keith,
I'd like to see that banjo. Can you give us some pics, please? Or email me some?
Thanks!

Ronnie - Posted - 09/02/2006:  16:37:22

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Rolf Sieker has a new CD playing Bobby Thompson's Baldwin style E. Watch for it!!!

banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp

bobbythompsonbanjo.com

Jim Bowman - Posted - 09/26/2006:  10:50:52

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I have a pre-Ode Baldwin banjo with the Baldwin metal scroll in the headstock. Very nice sounding banjo in very good shape. Any idea what they are selling for now?

Jim

stanger - Posted - 09/26/2006:  13:44:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Bowman

I have a pre-Ode Baldwin banjo with the Baldwin metal scroll in the headstock. Very nice sounding banjo in very good shape. Any idea what they are selling for now?

Jim

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Hi, Jim...
Actually, Ode came first. The history is complex- Ode started as a small company in Colorado ca. 1960. By 1966, it was a known and growing brand, and the Baldwin Piano Co. bought Ode as part of their expansion at the time. It also bought the Gretsh and Burns guitar companies around then. All the Colorado banjos are simply marked Ode.

From 1966 to 1969, the banjos continued to be made under founder Chuck Ogsbury's supervision, but were labelled Baldwin.

In 1969, Ode was moved from Boulder to a new factory in Arkansas. At this time, all the banjos were still being labelled Baldwin, but by ca. 1975, the began adding the Ode name under the Baldwin ribbon. The banjo operation was moved again, to a second factory in Arkansas.

Around 1978, Baldwin began to shed the name on all its products except for pianos. It still owned it's various divisions, but the Baldwin name was dropped from the banjos, making them simply Ode again.

So- the name progression is: Ode- Baldwin- Baldwin/Ode- Ode. There are slight differences in each era of these banjos, but they all retained the essentials that were begun in Boulder.

This is further confused by the continued use of the cast aluminum rim used on many models. This rim was an Ogsbury invention, and were used on his earlier banjos exclusively. Ode began making wood rimmed banjos in addition to the line in 1965. The aluminum rim went through several evolutions, and by the time of the buyout, was offered in 4 different versions; each has a different tone. Most of these rims, (except for the earliest, which had no cast markings in it) had some lettering cast into them.
This casting says: Boulder (in script) ODE Colorado (in scriipt), and on the opposing side says: Model and Grade (both in script).

Baldwin never changed the casting mold, so all aluminum rimmed banjos have this lettering, whether they were made in Colorado or in Arkansas. Baldwin simplified the number of tone ring options on them, though.

Odes used quite a variety of peghead shapes, and the shapes differed from era to era. It is often hard to spot an Ode by the peghead alone, unless you know the variations. They also used several different inlay patterns; some are much more rare than others.

To further complicate things, Ode, before being bought out, also made another line of banjos called Muse, which are very similar but not identical. Muse banjos are rarer than Odes.

The value of an Ode depends in part on the era it was made, much like a Gibson. Although the differences in quality from one era to another are VERY slight, Odes were produced in larger numbers after the buyout, and most were produced in the Gretsch factories. At the time, Gretsch's guitar quality was all over the place, from very good to bad, and, although the banjos were made by a seperate crew, later Odes suffered from association to Gretsch guitars.
I have played Odes from all eras of production and find no major differences in quality, except for the very last ones made.(The last ones are still good, but show evidence of floor-sweeping to me.)

Like any vintage banjo, any era Ode is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Because their history is so complicated, any of them seem to bring roughly equal prices on the general market. Wood rimmed Odes usually bring more than aluminum rimmed ones, but the wood rimmed banjos are fancier. Serious Ode guys know the differences, but they don't spread the info around widely because they, just like anyone else, like a bargain when they pop up. In general terms, I've watched all of them go up in price since around 1997 with no huge spikes. My 77 D Model has increased roughly 55% in value since I bought it in 1998.

The demand seems to be gradually increasing as well, as it is with several other overlooked brands. I see fewer offered lately- I think more players who own them are keeping them now. The heaviest trading I've seen is among the diehard Ode folks, and that group seems to be expanding over the past 2 years.

Unlike Gibson, the brand never produced dogs in any year, but they really didn't ever produce any particularly superior model years, either. Their quality control standards were always very high from first to last- much higher than any major brand of the time, except for the US made Fenders. Unlike Gibson, there was never any degrading of parts quality at all, and the construction methods remained constantly the same.

The only real differences are in the earliest banjos, which show a steady progression of finesse in their quality. I never met one I didn't like.
regards,
Stanger

Iderhobanjer23 - Posted - 09/26/2006:  16:08:33

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Its good to hear that your daughter is so sucessful Mr. Stanger!
One thing i do know, the other day i went over to Stanger's place, and he had an Ode banjo (besides his long neck which is killer). This banjo was kinda beat up, but talk about TONE!!! Wow, by far the best banjo i've ever played. It had wonderful tone changes between the X and Y positions, and had great note separation. And to think it even had a couple holes in the rim!!! What model was that Mr. Stanger?? Lookin foward to playin that one again. And to think he had never told me of that one before (or he said i never noticed it. Knowing my stupid teenagish self, i looked at it and thought, O it's just an Ode!).

Luke in Idaho

Happy Angel Band
Pickin and Singin for the Lord
nowhereradio.com/artists/disco...?aid=4858
Good Person??? Find out...goodpersontest.com/

stanger - Posted - 09/26/2006:  20:39:47

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Hi, Luke...
It was good visiting with you again! That was my D Model. Sorry to say that it will probably be in pieces the next time you come down... I'm refinishing the resonator, along with another that is in even worse shape. Both have severe buckle rash and general finish failure.
Hope to have it done within a few weeks. The rim problems are gonna get fixed up later on. (I should have fixed 'em years ago, but hate to mess with it because it sounds so good).

If any of you are interested in hearing it, I cut a couple of tunes for my pal Michael Hofer that are posted on his website:
banjobasics.julieferris.com/

regards,
Stanger

Drycreek - Posted - 09/26/2006:  21:19:36

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I have never owned an Ode, but have wanted one since I took lessons from Rual Yarbrough in the late 60's and he would let me play his Baldwin that he played regularly. It was a banjo that still rings in my mind as one of the best that I have ever heard. Of course, I am sure a lot of it was his technique. He operated a music store in Muscle Shoals, AL at that time and had a wall full of Gibsons, many pre-war, but chose to play a Baldwin. I could not afford a one then and now play a Gibson, but I will have a Baldwin some day when the right one presents itself..

sonhouse - Posted - 09/27/2006:  18:08:53

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Does anyone out there have a 1960's style C-like Ode with a metal Baldwin on the peghead that has the aluminum rim with the arch top ring? How do they sound?

Thanks,

Jim

Joe Garinger - Posted - 09/29/2006:  23:29:57

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Hi All,

I collect Ode, Ode, Muse and Baldwin serial numbers. If your interested in passing them along I'd be very thank full.

Joe

stanger - Posted - 09/30/2006:  00:30:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by sonhouse

Does anyone out there have a 1960's style C-like Ode with a metal Baldwin on the peghead that has the aluminum rim with the arch top ring? How do they sound?

Thanks,

Jim

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Hi, Jim... Those banjos were made in the 70's. They typically have a very bright sound and a lot of volume. With careful setup, they can sound much deeper than the way the usually come, though. That peghead shape is only found on Baldwin-made banjos, and is very similar to the old Epiphone Recording banjo's pegheads.
regards,
Stanger

BANJO TONY - Posted - 09/30/2006:  09:56:20

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To bad there is no books with pictures out there that document the history of ODE Baldwin Ode,Ome. all I know is that the best sounding banjo I have is my 1980 Ode model C it blows away my Gibson RB-250 & my Deering M/B, I just wish the neck was not so slim.

TLG - Posted - 09/30/2006:  19:44:10

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Banjo Tony I replaced the first 4 fretts with ones that extend out over the binding & replace the nut & cut string slots wider to make the neck appear wider at that end. This seems to help the narrow neck problem a lot if you know a repairman that can do the work.
Tommy

Seamus - Posted - 09/30/2006:  19:58:55

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Craig:

Great to see the young folks doin bluegrass, and GREAT to see someone hammerin on an ArmyNavy type mandolin in a BG venue. Thought I was the only one that did that

Seamus