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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Cold Frosty Morning or Frosty Morning coarse & fine


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Steve Jeter - Posted - 01/24/2013:  07:36:42



Dwight call this Frosty Morning on a dvd I have of his. Plays in sawmill,,, and starts with the fine part...... Looking at other vids, it seems they start with the coarse part, and call it Cold Frosty.



any clarification on this please?   what part do you play first?


Dave Douglass - Posted - 01/24/2013:  08:06:12



I always start it with the high part.


banjo bill-e - Posted - 01/24/2013:  08:12:14


Steve, I play it both slow and fast and find that the tune works really well either way, but with a completely different feel, of course. If playing it fast and lively, I start with the corse part but if slow and "atmospheric", then I start with the fine part. It just seems to make sense that way.

Steve Jeter - Posted - 01/24/2013:  08:25:01


thanks , Im somehow drawn to the feel of it slow and high first, just wondering

vrteach - Posted - 01/24/2013:  08:27:49



I've always started it with the high part, but most people around me start with the low.


ronwalker49 - Posted - 01/24/2013:  08:54:41


Hey Steve...Check this out in Em tuning



Cold Frosty Mornin

   

Steve Jeter - Posted - 01/24/2013:  09:10:54


Ron I REALLY like that sound! Im gonna look up Em tuning, an d try it.

Steve Jeter - Posted - 01/24/2013:  09:13:24



Ron for Em do you just raise 1 & 4 up to the 2fret note?



 



out of open G



Edited by - Steve Jeter on 01/24/2013 09:13:52

rgoad - Posted - 01/24/2013:  09:25:51



Ron plays a giraffe neck banjo so that it is naturally two steps lower.


carlb - Posted - 01/24/2013:  10:46:39



When I play the Henry Reed tune "Frosty Morning", I play the low part first and the high part second (aEADE). When I play the Melvin Wine tune "Cold Frosty Morning", I play the high part first and low part second (aEAC#E).


Force Five - Posted - 01/24/2013:  14:11:35


I love this song it reminds me of mountain men living high in the hills and living off the land and just being free. I love it, this song would go good in the movie Jeremiah Johnson when Redford was battling the Crow Indians one at a time before they looked at him like some sort sacred enemy. It seems this is a song more suited for clawhammer but Bela Fleck has a awesome version he did on a 5 string on his first album that pretty cool, but I thing the clawhammer sounds way better.

chip arnold - Posted - 01/24/2013:  15:01:57


In Miles Krassen's old book, he started the Henry Reed version on the fine. I find that most fiddlers start the tune on the coarse part.

MountainBanjo - Posted - 01/24/2013:  16:03:55


Is Dwight Diller's version the Melvin Wine version or the Henry Reed version, or the Dwight Diller version? I've given up trying to remember whose is Cold Frosty and whose is just Frosty. Then there's Doc Watson's version, which I've never sat down and tried to figure if it Doc Watson rendition of Henry Reed or the something else.

J-Walk - Posted - 01/24/2013:  16:17:23



There are four ways of playing it:



1. Start high, end low

2. Start high, end high

3. Start low, end low

4. Start low, end high



The correct way depends on the fiddler who's leading it -- and his/her ability to hold up the foot in an unambiguous manner.


Stiv_MacRae - Posted - 01/24/2013:  17:03:31


I play the high part first, as Dwight demonstrates. But, honestly, this is one of those tunes from which you can coax a lot of different interpretations.

ronwalker49 - Posted - 01/25/2013:  02:28:34


Hi Steve...I am using sawmill, then capo-ed in the 4th fret, I was guessing it was Em, but I checked Mark Johnson's video and it says A modal tuning so I suppose that is what it is...Sorry I miss spoke....It is Little Sadie and Shady Grove I use the minor tuning on, (cc tuning with 1st string raised 1/2 step) ...


Hi Rick....Haven't used a long neck for some time...Not since I learned to use different tunings....In fact I am building another neck for my "long necked banjo" right now....

carlb - Posted - 01/25/2013:  05:38:41



quote:


Originally posted by MountainBanjo

I've given up trying to remember whose is Cold Frosty and whose is just Frosty.




 Read my post from yesterday.


MountainBanjo - Posted - 01/25/2013:  17:05:32


Lol, I know that much but the names seem to get mixed and matched. Like is Doc Watson's Frosty Morn really Frosty Morn, or is it Cold Frosty Morn? He starts on the high part. I've been asking that question here for years and nobody has ever answered, and I'm still too lazy to go find all the versions and compare.

if I go to a jam and someone calls out Frosty Morn, can I be sure what's coming next? ;-)

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/25/2013:  20:05:28



You'll know by the tuning you are in -- if it's a proper Old Time jam. It will be in the same tuning you've been in for an hour and a half.



Actually, when it comes to the Sawmill (A Dorian Mode) version, we usually only play that key for about an hour. By that time the tunes have all run together into one. Since most American Sawmill tunes are also pentatonic (there are only 5 notes per octave in the scale) the key is pretty limited. There are also problems with one part tunes (like Shady Grove) that simply get dull without someone singing, or get annoying when sung badly.



Usually we just go into G after a while in Sawmill, because several of our fiddlers play Sawmill tunes in standard fiddle tuning GDAE. My wife doesn't bother with the low G available this way and plays the sawmill tunes out of her "A" tuning AEAE. She has to have another fiddle unless the group decides to go into A - which doesn't happen.



I think we should combine the Sawmill tunes with C tunes and play about half a night in each. Unfortunately, not too many of our bunch can play that many C tunes, or Sawmill tunes for that matter. Sawmill is not a popular tuning around here. Which is a shame because there are some interesting Celtic tunes (Like The Halting March) that we play in sawmill. No one else seem to know it. We got it from a Chieftains record many years ago.



There are also some truly haunting contradance tunes in Sawmill. Around here (Noth K-lina) no one plays Coleraine and that is just a shame. In Upstate NY it was the high point of every Sawmill jam.


MountainBanjo - Posted - 01/25/2013:  22:03:25


Ah, I didn't catch that Cold Frosty is a different tuning. I only know Frosty Morning in sawmill, and that's where Doc plays his. But it ain't the same as Dwight Diller's, which is where I got mine.

carlb - Posted - 01/26/2013:  05:12:53



quote:


Originally posted by MountainBanjo

1. Lol, I know that much but the names seem to get mixed and matched.



2. if I go to a jam and someone calls out Frosty Morn, can I be sure what's coming next? ;-)





 1. I have no idea who changed the name of the Henry Reed tune to "Cold Frosty Morning". It's very clear in <memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/reed/ >, that the name of Henry Reed's tune is "Frosty Morning". There is no "Cold Frosty Morning" in the titles. It's also clear, that Melvin Wine's first vinyl recording is titled "Cold Frosty Morning" and that tune is on the record.



cduniverse.com/search/xx/music...rning.htm cduniverse.com/search/xx/music...rning.htm



2.  Not really, though if they say "Frosty Morning", it's most probably the Henry Reed tune. However, if they say "Cold Frosty Morning" and if you in standard tuning, they'd probably play Henry Reed's tune and if they're in AEAE they'd probably play Melvin Wine's tune.


brudford - Posted - 01/29/2013:  21:23:18



I'am a little confused . You refer to Frosty Mourn as a Henry Reed tune ? I thought the song was written to comemerate the defeat of the Jacobites at Calloden mour in 1746 . More of a Lament song . Did Henry Reed write this song ? I thought the song was an ancient song ?  I have heard at least six different names for this tune . Thanks


carlb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  05:50:27



quote:


Originally posted by brudford

I'am a little confused . You refer to Frosty Mourn as a Henry Reed tune ? I thought the song was written to comemerate the defeat of the Jacobites at Calloden mour in 1746 . More of a Lament song . Did Henry Reed write this song ? I thought the song was an ancient song ?  I have heard at least six different names for this tune . Thanks




 No, Henry Reed, via Alan Jabbour and then many others, passed "Frosty Morning" down to just about all of us. Will you please point us to recordings and/or transcriptions of the ancient song you mentioned?


carlb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  05:53:14



quote:


Originally posted by brudford

I'am a little confused . You refer to Frosty Mourn as a Henry Reed tune ? I thought the song was written to comemerate the defeat of the Jacobites at Calloden mour in 1746 . More of a Lament song . Did Henry Reed write this song ? I thought the song was an ancient song ?  I have heard at least six different names for this tune . Thanks




Henry Reed, via Alan Jabbour and then many others, passed "Frosty Morning" down to just about all of us. Will you please point us to recordings and/or transcriptions of the ancient song you mentioned?



Edited by - carlb on 01/30/2013 05:55:30

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  06:53:17



Cold Frosty Morning - the tune in Sawmill, and I believe the one played by Melvin Wine - was supposedly the tune played by a lone piper as the Scots went over the dead, lying on the field after the previous days battle (Culloden(SP). It was a major defeat for the Jacobite Army, breaking the back of the rebellion.


brudford - Posted - 01/30/2013:  11:28:50



Semantics aside , if Cold Frosty Mourn was written in the mid 1750's this might be considered ancient to many. However in the strict sense of the definition of ancient, I guess any time period before the fall of the Roman Empire would be considered ancient ? Here are some references .



flutetunes.com/tunes.ph...=402  ,  communityguitar.com/students/Songs/cold_frosty_morning.htm



 



Edited by - brudford on 01/30/2013 11:30:11

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/30/2013:  15:54:43


I learned it from Southern Illinois fiddler
Mel Durham (1914-2008)
my adopted uncle, mentor, and hero,
down in California years ago.
Mel commenced the tune with the fine part.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/30/2013:  21:35:08



I get an error 404 on that URL.



However I do believe that any knowledge of music from the Roman Empire is speculative. No notation survives from the time and there exist only written text descriptions (by non-musicians) of the tunes.


plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 01/31/2013:  00:51:12



Confused from the UK....   is this one of those tunes where the basic melody remains the same but the name and playing order switches dependent on who or where is ascribed as the source? Or do two completely different tunes exist?



Interestingly in the DLA archive the title of this version by Sheila K Adams is 'Cold &...'  BUT Sheila introduces it as "Frosty Morn.."



dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/...401/rec/4



A case of 'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'?



regards



Chris


carlb - Posted - 01/31/2013:  05:27:01



quote:


Originally posted by plunknplinkntwang

Confused from the UK....   is this one of those tunes where the basic melody remains the same but the name and playing order switches dependent on who or where is ascribed as the source? Or do two completely different tunes exist?




 "Frosty Morning" (Henry Reed) and "Cold Frosty Morning" (Melvin Wine) are two completely different tunes.


OldPappy - Posted - 01/31/2013:  07:36:07



I learned "Frosty Morn" from Diller, and I believe, though not certain, he said he learned it from Lee Hammons.

Because of the similarity with "Cold Frosty Morning" I did some little bit of digging around a few years ago, and found the following.

"Cold Frosty Morning" has, as someone above said, an origin with a Scots fiddel tune associated with the
1746 Battle of Culloden (Jacobite uprising), supposedly from somone looking at the battle field the next morning where more than 2000 Scots lay dead.

I found something interesting this morning when I did a google, that also notes similarity of the Scots fiddle tune to an Irish tune from a lifetime before 1746.

Don't have any idea of how accurate the below article is, but it is interesting.

sixwatergrog.com/2011/02/cold-...hrim.html

brudford - Posted - 01/31/2013:  08:31:25



Oldwoodchuck , Sorry for the confusion I was using pre Fall of Roman Empire as a definition of the word ancient not as a reference for the song Cold Frosty Mourn . The above poster thinks maybe from his research that the song may even pre-date 1746 ? Still maybe not considered ancient by many ? I also play my version gained from Diller . Many may have learned Cold Frosty from Henry Reed , however Reed was born in 1914 . I'am sure the song was being played in America hundreds of years before his birth ? I would not credit Reed with bringing the song to us no more than I would credit Diller with giving us this song . Often when researching a songs origin I noticed that a particular player from a particular region is given credit for the song ? I will argue that we may never know the origins of a lot of theses songs that may have come from the British Isles hundreds of years before the so-called credit to the song to a particular person is given . Suffice it to say , " I learn this song from this player " .



Edited by - brudford on 01/31/2013 08:38:11

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 01/31/2013:  08:36:48



quote:


Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb




I get an error 404 on that URL.



However I do believe that any knowledge of music from the Roman Empire is speculative. No notation survives from the time and there exist only written text descriptions (by non-musicians) of the tunes.






There is ancient Greek notation of a few pieces, the Seiklios epitaph and the Delphic hymns. Also some older pieces from the Middle-East written in cuneiform.



Hunter


oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/01/2013:  12:24:36



HUnter



I was not aware of that - but does anyone know how the writing relates to modern notation, or even modern scales? IN other words, is there a Rosetta Stone for the modern musician?



 



 


oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/01/2013:  12:31:37



As I understand it Cold Frosty Morning was indeed the tune that was remembered as being played as the Scots picked up their dead after Culloden, but I've read nothing that definitively claims that it was written on that day. The tune could have been around for quite a while under some other name. Then gotten a name change when it became associated with Culloden.  Besides, with so many dead from so many clans, I have to assume there were other tunes, played - tunes associated with the various clans.



Jackson's Victory was a popular tune until Andrew Jackson went into politics and started gaining enemies. The tune is now known as The Battle Of New Orleans. So I guess Jackson's enemies won - in the field of OTM.



In a similar shift, when we first moved to the south we still played Marching Through Georgia but I sang the verses to They're Hanging Dead Old Dad to the tune. I thought that was the "southern version" of the tune. I was apparently wrong. The few times I did it I was informed that the tune was not acceptable to all real sons of the south - no matter what lyrics were sung to it. We stopped playing the tune at all - but we also stopped playing Dixie. The north shall rise again!



Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 02/01/2013 12:44:35

banjoike - Posted - 02/01/2013:  13:16:07



Ole Pappy



Loved your reference to the "Battle of Culloden". I have been to that site in Scotland. I mean to tell you it is still eerie. A lot of dead souls there floating around!!   The Fog hangs Low there...and it is a fitting place for a Cold Frosty Morning!!



Edited by - banjoike on 02/01/2013 13:17:08

brudford - Posted - 02/02/2013:  17:04:25



I would  love to visit the home of my ancestors some day , England, Ireland and Scotland . I think many of these old time tunes were written out of pure human emotionanl experiences ,  either happy or tradgic in nature . I new a young man years ago who was a Scotsman and lived in my community, boy did he have some negative feelings towards the  English . I will not go into detail because I know there are many fine folks from England that post on this board and they deserve respect. I think maybe from this raw emotion is what makes many of theses tunes what they are. He never mentioned the battle of Culloden but it makes you wonder ? I think the British slaughtered the Scots  at  the battle of Culloden .I think that is what makes a song like Cold Frost mourn so hauntlying beautiful .



Edited by - brudford on 02/02/2013 17:11:43

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/04/2013:  01:32:15



quote:


Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb


HUnter



I was not aware of that - but does anyone know how the writing relates to modern notation, or even modern scales? IN other words, is there a Rosetta Stone for the modern musician? 






I don't know much about it. Reading up on it, there seems to be a fair amount of information on the Greek stuff and how it would have sounded. And it turns out they've found a good few pieces, or fragments of pieces. For the Mesopotamian stuff, there does seem to be information on the tunings and intervals used, but it sounds like the interpretation of the pieces is more debatable.



Hunter


banjoak - Posted - 02/04/2013:  11:35:35



quote:


Originally posted by brudford




Many may have learned Cold Frosty from Henry Reed , however Reed was born in 1914 . I'am sure the song was being played in America hundreds of years before his birth ? I would not credit Reed with bringing the song to us no more than I would credit Diller with giving us this song .






The Henry Reed in reference was born in 1884. He learned most of his repertoire pre-recording days from an older generation. He credits a large influence of his repertoire to fiddler and fifer - Quince Dillion born 1805.



Alan Jabbour had a large role in passing along Henry's repertoire and versions into popularity. Besides the ethnological collecting, he and his band and friends, would play these at festivals, and recordings of these players (like Hollow Rock and Fuzzy Mountain). Those recordings were very popular in the younger OT revival movement of the 60's and 70's; (Easier to find, and the quality was easier to listen to) and spread pretty quickly. Most folks I believe learned the tune(s) directly from those younger recordings  - or indirectly in jams (based on the younger recording) - few learned it from the actual Henry Reed recording. The newer recorded versions, were slightly different interpretations; and then  jam versions, changed as well. While other older fiddlers also played their version of the tune, while some very similar, always different in some way, did not quite gain the popularity of the Henry Reed version.



A lot of tunes are like this. A lot of tunes folks learn because they are heard at jams a lot; giving the illusion that the tune was always around in widespread great popularity. While the tune no doubt is often much older, and you can find other players from a region that played it; they were not that widespread until fairly recently, and can be somewhat traced and attributed to fairly specific player and collector. Further confusing it, that the jam process can turn the tune into something significantly different than the original source, giving the illusion it didn't come from there.



IMO it doesn't matter that much; in being a folk musician, when it comes to playing (and listening); it makes no difference which is the oldest, or most "authentic" version; I just base on what I think sounds good.



As far as the OP question about the order, for many tunes it was not uncommon in the older tradition, they just played it the way that they thought sounded best. Including how many repeats, and other finer aspects. In modern times many folks believe they have to play it just like the source recording or notation, primarily believing that's some rule. IMO, I like playing the part that sounds like it introduces the tune and end on a part that sounds concluding; it doesn't matter if it's high or low; (sometimes it's the same part) - and some tunes just sound incomplete ending on the B or C part.  That said, IMO a good rule is to follow the order (and other aspects) the person who leads it establishes.


chip arnold - Posted - 02/05/2013:  06:06:58


Quince Dillion 1805
Henry Reed 1884
Henry's kids playing well into the 21'st century
Alan Jabbour playing still
Three generations bridging all that time is a simply amazing conduit from the distant past to the present.

Now let's play Quince Dillion's High D tune :-)

raybob - Posted - 02/05/2013:  07:50:13



quote:


Originally posted by carlb




When I play the Henry Reed tune "Frosty Morning", I play the low part first and the high part second (aEADE). When I play the Melvin Wine tune "Cold Frosty Morning", I play the high part first and low part second (aEAC#E).






I submitted Frosty Morning as the TOTW some time ago and called it Cold Frosty Morning.  I had always known it by that name (and I guess I'm not the only one :-)



Here's a youtube of Melvin Wine's Cold Frosty Morning played by Jimmy Triplett and others. The second youtube is of a dulcimer player giving a lesson on the tune. He tells that Melvin actually played the tune on the fiddle in a cross G tuning, but that most fiddlers today play it in a cross A tuning. The dulcimer video also goes over the melody slowly so it's easy to soak it in. This is a new tune to me and definitely not 'Frosty Morning'.



youtube.com/watch?v=5WPMY-0V9CQ



youtube.com/watch?v=apQXz367rm4


carlb - Posted - 02/05/2013:  11:37:53



quote:


Originally posted by raybob

Here's a youtube of Melvin Wine's Cold Frosty Morning played by Jimmy Triplett




 Here's an mp3 of Melvin Wine playing the tune <slippery-hill.com/M-K/AEAE/Col...rning.mp3 >


janolov - Posted - 02/05/2013:  12:41:30



Melvin Wine's version sounds like another tune, it is not even modal.


raybob - Posted - 02/05/2013:  13:01:50



Thanks Carl, very nice. He's playing it in A.  Banjo player working well with him too.



Edited by - raybob on 02/05/2013 13:07:21

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 02/05/2013:  15:20:42



quote:


Originally posted by brudford




I would  love to visit the home of my ancestors some day , England, Ireland and Scotland . I think many of these old time tunes were written out of pure human emotionanl experiences ,  either happy or tradgic in nature . I new a young man years ago who was a Scotsman and lived in my community, boy did he have some negative feelings towards the  English . I will not go into detail because I know there are many fine folks from England that post on this board and they deserve respect. I think maybe from this raw emotion is what makes many of theses tunes what they are. He never mentioned the battle of Culloden but it makes you wonder ? I think the British slaughtered the Scots  at  the battle of Culloden .I think that is what makes a song like Cold Frost mourn so hauntlying beautiful .






It's so easy for Scots vs. English to be used as an emotional but divisive rally call, but who is what is as clear as mud when bloodlines are traced  - The Brits slaughtered other Brits because of the hierarchical / feudal systems and lack of education that was used to keep the population under control. 



Scotts, Ulster Irish, English & Germanic Hanoverian Royalist troops fought against Scots, Irish, French and English Stewart Royalist troops  - the point at that time was that Protestant fought Catholic for control of Britain.  



The Jacobite rebels weren't  the same group as the Appalachian Scotts Irish and were polar opposites to the puritans


BobJJ - Posted - 02/05/2013:  16:29:06



quote:


Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

In a similar shift, when we first moved to the south we still played Marching Through Georgia but I sang the verses to They're Hanging Dead Old Dad to the tune. I thought that was the "southern version" of the tune. I was apparently wrong. The few times I did it I was informed that the tune was not acceptable to all real sons of the south - no matter what lyrics were sung to it. We stopped playing the tune at all - but we also stopped playing Dixie. The north shall rise again!





Too bad!  They are both fine old tunes.  We still play both for some square dances. My favorite version of (and I know that it is not fancy banjo work) "Dixie" is by Gid Tanner & The Skillet Lickers:



youtube.com/watch?v=MouWKtaFtYw



It has lots of energy, like a good dance tune.



Bob




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