Charley Noble - Posted - 02/23/2012:  08:54:47

I've never run across a classic 1890s S. S. Stewart plectrum (full-size 4-string) banjo. Has anyone else seen one? I'm not talking about the Stewart tenor banjos, which were quite common in the 1920s. I thought I had actually bought one on e-Bay a few years ago but it was a 5-string Orchestra model that was crudely butchered; the neck had been planed down. I'd love to see a photo of one.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/23/2012:  09:26:25

You won't find one from prior to the 19-teens...and by that time, they were "Stewart" in name only. AFAIK, plectrum banjos were not cataloged items (for anyone) prior to then. Farris may have made a long-neck 4-string banjo back in the 1890's...but it wouldn't have been called a "plectrum".

Still...I don't think I've ever seen any "Stewart" named plectrums. I recall only tenors, ukes, mando-banjos and guitars. I would assume they exist...I just don't recall ever seeing one.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/23/2012:  10:02:35

Trapdoor2-

It still seems odd to me that a few weren't custom ordered in the 1890s. Maybe this query will help one to surface.

mbanza - Posted - 02/23/2012:  10:20:52

There were "S. S. Stewart Wondertone" plectrum banjos, but they were considerably later.  Apparently made by Lange.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/23/2012:  11:02:51

quote:

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Originally posted by Charley Noble



It still seems odd to me that a few weren't custom ordered in the 1890s. Maybe this query will help one to surface.

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 It's extremely unlikely that Sam Swaim would ever have allowed one to be built in his factory.

He held very strong opinions about what was "right" and what was "wrong" in terms of banjo construction, banjo music, and banjo playing techniques, and considering the vitriolic rhetoric he constantly aimed at anyone whose opinions differed from his in the slightest, I can't picture him accepting the idea of a Plectrum (I.E. "flatpicked") banjo as being anything but the first sign of the apocalypse.

~Pete

Edited by - Deaf Lester Crawdad on 02/23/2012 11:04:33

mikehalloran - Posted - 02/23/2012:  11:10:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Charley Noble

Trapdoor2-



It still seems odd to me that a few weren't custom ordered in the 1890s. Maybe this query will help one to surface.

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Why? There was no music being played that required such an instrument in the 19th C.

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 02/23/2012:  11:29:22

quote:

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Originally posted by mikehalloran

quote:

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Originally posted by Charley Noble

Trapdoor2-



It still seems odd to me that a few weren't custom ordered in the 1890s. Maybe this query will help one to surface.

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Why? There was no music being played that required such an instrument in the 19th C.

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 Think it through:   Neither was there any music that "required" the use of a Sax before the instrument was invented, and this is also true of just about any other instrument you can name.

Until instruments go into widespread use, there's no real way to predict exactly what sorts of music they'll be capable of playing, and it's a dead-bang certainty that composers don't usually write for instruments that don't yet exist.*

*P.D.Q. Bach being the sole exception that I'm aware of.

~Pete

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/23/2012:  17:09:55

Actually, there was a well known player who was playing the 'chord melody', strumming style around the turn of the century: "Blackface" Eddie Ross. Eddie was, AFAIK, the original strummer. Certainly he was the earliest to record. He didn't use a plectrum though...he used the ends of his fingers.

Although Stewart was vitriolic in his opinions, he was the consummate businessman. If there was a demand...he would meet it. I have no doubt he would have built anything you wanted, any way you wanted...as long as it made him money. Many of the very things he railed about, he slyly adopted and sold...such as "simple method" tab. To read his journal, you would have thought he would rather set fire to his factory than to recommend it...but he published and sold it.

BobTheGambler - Posted - 02/23/2012:  17:14:36

quote:

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Originally posted by mbanza

There were "S. S. Stewart Wondertone" plectrum banjos, but they were considerably later.  Apparently made by Lange.

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I though the Wondertone banjos were made by Puntolillo/Majestic.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/24/2012:  06:04:16

I'm thinking that plectrum banjos were quite common in the 1890s but I'll have to do some research and track down my references. Now the "tenor banjo" was clearly a 20th century innovation.

deuceswilde - Posted - 02/24/2012:  06:31:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Charley Noble

I'm thinking that plectrum banjos were quite common in the 1890s but I'll have to do some research and track down my references. Now the "tenor banjo" was clearly a 20th century innovation.

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Well, if they were common like you think, the research would be easy and quick.  There would be tutors with copyright dates from the 90s (there aren't).  And not just one or two, 'cause if they were "common" there would be many like there are for the 5-string.

There would be photos, catalog listings, all of the major department stores would have carried them (it was about money right), newspaper ads, patents, post cards with imagery, match safes, shaving mugs, jewelry, &c, all depicting the four string plectrum banjos.

So one would think that their work to find them would be easy, but it won't.

Swaim died in 98, and that was the end of the Stewart line as we know it.  They went down hill very fast after that.  In fact the Bauer years, by us SSS dorks, are not even considered true Stewart banjos, just like Marc wrote-- Stewart in name only. 

So, I'll start your frustration for you... here is a collection of the Stewart Banjo and Guitar Journal from 1884 to 1900, with a few holes in the sequence.  Read every issue (I did).  If the "Plectrum" banjo was common, the pages would be filled with references to them.  Even more so If Swaim did not like them (zither banjos).

hdl.handle.net/1802/2586

Then check out the gamut of instruction books available for free on line- you wont find a plectrum banjo book or piece of sheet music copyright before 1900.  Could someone have removed their fifth string and began to play mandolin style- yes.  Did they in the 1890s?  Possibly.  Common at that time- no.

elib.hamilton.edu/hc/hc-main.p...c=spe_ban

thejoelhooks.com/Site/Instruct...ions.html

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/24/2012:  11:09:56

deuceswilde-

Interesting references. So now I have to roll out the heavy artillery: America's Instrument by Gura and Bollman. On page 252 of this fascinating book he comments "Henry Reed still learned to play on the five-string banjo (1903), even though four-string, plectrum banjo playing was all the rage in the nation at large."

Earlier, on page 249, he identified the origin of the full-sized plectrum banjo as around 1900:

"Soon these new forms of banjos (mandolin banjos) were joined by another, the plectrum banjo, a full-sized instrument whose four strings were tuned in standard banjo tuning, but which again lacked the fifth string and was played, as the name suggests, with a pick."

deuceswilde - Posted - 02/24/2012:  12:10:23

Period sources are needed... good old fashioned documentation.  Documents from the time not about.   If they were "all the rage" that would be easy to come by, no?

Here is some more to look at...

They covered the industry very close, so it should be no problem for you to find and post references to the common plectrum in the 1890s or 1900.

Good luck.

mtr.arcade-museum.com/

mikehalloran - Posted - 02/24/2012:  12:11:08

That's 1900, not an indicator of what was happening in 1890. 

beezaboy - Posted - 02/24/2012:  13:04:46

I've read a few period magazines.  My impression is that the plectrum banjo did not emerge until the teens.

Rettberg & Lange advertised their Orpheum plectrum banjo quite actively in the teens.

Though there was great debate in the nineties and aughts concerning the propriety of playing the regular banjo with a plectrum I cannot recall a discussion about removing the 5th string for plectrum playing.

The plectrum banjo did not receive much ink in the magazines I read and it wasn't until the tenor banjo migrated to the rhythm section of the dance band that mention began being made about the desireabilty of using a plectrum banjo instead of the tenor banjo because of its close harmony tuning characteristics.

My purpose for reading the period literature was to learn about the history of the tenor banjo.  I was subconciously also thinking about the history of the plectrum banjo and thought how difficult it would be to write the history of the plectrum as so little was written about it in The Cadenza, The Crescendo, Jacobs Orchestra Monthly and Music Trade Review. 

tdennis - Posted - 02/24/2012:  13:17:28

A closer reading of  pp.  249 & 252, of "America's Instrument" does not confirm your use of  such early dates as 1903 or 1900(or 1890's).  Both sections talk about the instruments & music of the early 20th Century , (Which is commonly used to include the 19-teens & 20's). Page 249 : "..., Both these instruments(mandolin banjo,tango banjo),.... were used to accompany a new dance,....very popular in the first decades of the century.  Soon these new forms of banjo were joined by another, the Plectrum banjo...         Page 252: In the early 20th century .......four string, plectrum banjo playing was all the rage.  ( I believe this last sentence use of the the word plectrum  actually means plectrum(pick)style of playing, & not the long scale Plectrum banjo.  The date 1903 comes from a photograph from that year & has little to do w/ dating Plectrum banjos.     (The OP was about Plectrum banjos in the 1890's, pp 249 & 252 do no lend credence to this proposition).

Edited by - tdennis on 02/24/2012 13:18:36

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/24/2012:  15:23:20

I agree that 1890s seems to be too early. I'm less sure about the early 1900s not being the date when "they were all the rage," but I'm willing to do some more homework.

beezaboy - Posted - 02/24/2012:  16:04:33

I forgot to mention - At the April 1915 convention of the American Guild BMG a resolution was submitted naming the members of the banjo family.  In later issues of the Cadenza and Crescendo it is reported that this measure passed.  This was a big leap for the tenor banjo.  No longer would it be correct to refer to it as tango, cello, banjorine, etc.  It had a name.  The resolution does not list or even by implication refer to a Plectrum Banjo.  Again, I think the Plectrum Banjo did not emerge until about the mid-teens when Rettberg & Lange started advertising one.

Here is an article about the Guild resolution: mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1915...-8-43.pdf 

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/25/2012:  06:07:38

I think I'll send Jim Bollman an e-mail and see what he has to say. Maybe he'll post his remarks here.

The Old Timer - Posted - 02/25/2012:  06:52:30

It was always my impression (uninformed as I am) that the plectrum banjo was the final development in the banjo family tree. So that guitar players could play banjo. Which led in turn to the development of the tenor guitar, so banjo players could play the guitar.

mikehalloran - Posted - 02/25/2012:  19:15:57

quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer

It was always my impression (uninformed as I am) that the plectrum banjo was the final development in the banjo family tree. So that guitar players could play banjo. Which led in turn to the development of the tenor guitar, so banjo players could play the guitar.

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No, that's pretty spot on.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/26/2012:  12:16:45

This is one of the earliest plectrum full-neck banjos I've been able to find, pattened in 1918: billsbanjos.com/yosco3.htm

"Lawrence Yosco adverstised instruments in NY City from around the turn of the century until the 1930's. This is a fine example of his arch-top, internal resonator banjo."

Anyone find one earlier?

Edited by - Charley Noble on 02/26/2012 12:18:55

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/26/2012:  12:41:00

Here's a 1910 full-neck Bacon model: gbase.com/gear/bacon-plectrum-banjo-1910

Edited by - Charley Noble on 02/26/2012 12:42:07

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/26/2012:  15:26:12

Just because there is a patent filed does not mean the banjo is from that date. Not proof by any means. Yosco 1918 patent please note that the patent drawing shows a 5-string. The Yosco patent is for the resonator...has nothing to do with the type of banjo it was applied to.

Bacon serial numbers are reasonably well documented and I strongly submit that the "1910" date on that one is spurious at best. Ask Ed Britt about early Bacon plectrum banjos, he specializes in the transitional period. Polle Flaunoe keeps an extensive Bacon database and is another Bacon guru.

Nope, I'm sticking to the mid-to-late-'teens for any plectrum (modern definition) of any sort.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/27/2012:  06:23:05

trapdoor2-

I'm not saying that you're wrong but I'm still willing to nose around some more before I'm fully convinced. I finally ran across an archived thread here on the origin of tenor banjos which has an excellent discussion, with some remarks focused on the full-neck plectrum banjo: 157163

One such banjo discussed was the Encore Automatic Banjo, circa 1897-1900, described as a 4-string full-neck banjo.

Other early long-neck plectrum banjo are more obviously conversions of 5-string banjos, with the neck planed and the 5th string tuner hole plugged.

Certainly Stewart was not an advocate for this type of banjo, or for ragtime music in general.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/27/2012:  08:26:57

Yes, I watched that thread when it evolved...participated just a bit.

You keep nosing around, no problem with that...part of the process. Like the thread you mentioned, without specific documentation from the period...it is going to be tough to nail it down.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/28/2012:  18:38:52

Nope, I'm not turning up anything new. I did have a good time reading about the Encore Automatic Banjo, and the fact that someone is replicating them now at $22,000 apiece. Sure would save wear and tear on the fingernails!

beezaboy - Posted - 02/29/2012:  03:39:06

*Here's a 1910 full-neck Bacon model*

Polle Flaunoe does not document a Bacon Plectrum Banjo until 1921 in his database.

rudykizuty - Posted - 02/29/2012:  04:04:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Charley Noble

Here's a 1910 full-neck Bacon model: gbase.com/gear/bacon-plectrum-banjo-1910

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Not accurate. There are no documented Bacon banjos that came out of Groton prior to 1920. Before then, their shop was in Vermont and at an even earlier stage, the original Bacon banjos were being manufactured under license by Vega and Rettberg & Lange. 

I am assuming this seller says Groton because it has the proper stampings indicating it as such. That being the case, 1910 cannot be the year this banjo was produced. 

beezaboy - Posted - 02/29/2012:  08:29:16

Now this is interesting:

June 13, 1914:

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1914...4-147.pdf 

Walter Jacobs publishing house here offers music for the Mandolin Orchestra.  One of the Mandoilin Orchestra arrangements is for the "plectrum banjo".

So, because this thread is entitled "Stewart" I'm going to start a new thread for the plectrum banjo in general.

Charley Noble - Posted - 02/29/2012:  16:50:05

beezaboy-

This will be interesting.