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zouk_alors - Posted - 02/22/2012: 09:34:56
I'm an Irish tenor player, and have three banjos: two are classic Tubaphone Vegas from the '20's (Style M and Vegaphone Pro), the third is a B&D Silver Bell #2, also from the '20's. I've heard it said that the Tubaphone tonering produces a bright tone with great sustain, and that is what I am seeking. But no matter what I try with setup changes, my two Tubaphones remain plunky and dark sounding. By contrast, the Silver Bell has a tone that is complex, sweet, and a whole lot brighter than the two Tubaphones, with sustain that is incredible -- almost like a guitar. It's sound is ideal for my needs. For various reasons, I would rather not take the Silver Bell out on gigs -- I find that it is too deep, front-to-back, for my comfort, and it's kind of precious (was a presentation model for a famous musician; their name is engraved on the flange).
Hoping you all might have opinions about how to achieve the sustain and brightness that a Tubaphone is said to be capable of. I've swapped out heads and bridges (Fahrquar, Emerson Kelly, more...), tightened and loosened heads, etc., all to no avail; still plunky and dark, compared to the Silver Bell (and compared to a vintage Gibson TB2 that I recently played). Right now both Vegas have frosted heads (have tried Renaissance on both), Emerson Kelly bridges, head tension readings of around 91-92 on the Drum Dial. Any thoughts on how tight I might want to go on the heads? (Style M has the large 12" pot, Pro has 11"). I seem to experience a "closing down" of the sound on both banjos when I get too much tigher. Other thoughts? Is this just the way it's gonna be with these two -- otherwise wonderful -- banjos?
Thanks in advance!
Keith in DC
mbanza - Posted - 02/22/2012: 09:57:48
Try adding mass to your bridge.
Emiel - Posted - 02/22/2012: 09:57:52
I think when players of old-time five-string banjo music who use an openback 5-string Tubaphone, say the TBP is bright, they compare it to a no-tonering banjo, or a Whyte Laydie, e.g., rather than to a less common banjo like openbacks with a cast Mastertone-style tonering or an expensive Ome with a Silver-Spun tonering (Ome's version of the Silver Bell). Compared to those banjos, the TBP may be judged as more plunky and deeper sounding.
BDCA - Posted - 02/22/2012: 10:40:16
Sell the Vegas and buy a Deering. The pro models have sustain up the wazoo and are the modern go to banjo for many touring ITM players. I have a GDL and find it quite amazing in tone, sustain and variety of tone. from a cut through the session sound nearer the bridge to bell like tunes towards the neck.
Check out Kieran Hanrahan or Goitse You Tube..
Cya!
Bob
cockneybanjo - Posted - 02/22/2012: 11:17:09
I have a Gold Tone OT-800 and I would describe the sound and full and rounded, with plenty of sustain when played in a clawhammer style - you can get the whole instrument humming with a sustained drone note and lots of volume. But bright? No, definitely not. The Gold Tone White Lady tone ring is sharper and brighter, with a higher general tone to it. I doubt you could achieve that in a flatpicking style.
The Gremlin "masterclone" style tenor I've just bought will cut straight across either, fretting cleanly up the neck, at the cost of shorter sustain. I take it that this is what BDCA is saying about the modern Deerings. I heard someone playing a Deering tenor at a session a little while ago and it was like a screwdriver in the ear, so much projection.
BDCA - Posted - 02/22/2012: 11:28:32
I also have the Gold Tone 17 fret open back Irish Tenor with the White Laydie tone ring and it is not a banjo with great tone variations or sustain. It compares favorably to the vintage Vegas when set up properly and is loud enogh for smaller sessions. It will never kick like a Deering or Paragon.
Cya!
zouk_alors - Posted - 02/22/2012: 11:40:56
Yes, Deerings can kick, and I wouldn't mind owning one. I have played Darren Maloney's, and also a new custom high-end Deering tenor that was made for a friend of mine. And there are other makers -- Tom Cussen, for example -- who make banjos that have "the sound". However, since I already own two Tubaphone Vegas, I'm just hoping that there might be some tweak that I could try in order to juice them up a bit. There is a thread somewhere in these forums in which vintage Tubaphones are compared directly with Silver Bells, and in there are a couple of mentions of how the Vega/Tubaphones might be brighter than Silver Bells... and in my experience it has been the opposite.
Oh well, I'll just keep tweaking, as we all do. Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.
Keith
cockneybanjo - Posted - 02/22/2012: 13:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by BDCA
I also have the Gold Tone 17 fret open back Irish Tenor with the White Laydie tone ring and it is not a banjo with great tone variations or sustain. It compares favorably to the vintage Vegas when set up properly and is loud enogh for smaller sessions. It will never kick like a Deering or Paragon.
Cya!
I did think of buying one, because I was happy with the sister instrument as a clawhammer banjo... but after trying one, I bought the Gremlin and it was the right choice, I think. And if you want volume, sustain and tonal variation, the OT-800 knocks spots off it.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/22/2012: 13:16:02
"Sell the Vegas and buy a Deering."
No - sell the Vegas and buy another Silver Bell - your favorite - maybe a less rare example for you to take out. And as for depth - sit down while playing - it will then not be a problem - plus the resonator being free of your body can then ring as well.
As simple as that!
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 02/22/2012 13:16:57
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/22/2012: 16:06:45
quote:
Originally posted by mbanza
Try adding mass to your bridge.
Well, one person has the correct answer.
Tighten the head. Use a heavy tailpiece such as a Kershner.
Use a bridge with more mass.
Lighter strings sustain better than heavier strings - but require a lighter touch with the pick.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 02/22/2012 16:09:50
jbalch - Posted - 02/22/2012: 16:22:09
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by mbanza
Try adding mass to your bridge.
Well, one person has the correct answer.
Tighten the head. Use a heavy tailpiece such as a Kershner.
Use a bridge with more mass.
Lighter strings sustain better than heavier strings - but require a lighter touch with the pick.
Agreed
Also - try a clear or un-coated mylar head (not renaissance), I've observed more sustain from bridges made of "submurged wood."
The large diameter rim is going to sound deeper ... there is no escaping that.
finally - Polle's idea is not too fat-fetched. It is hard to beat a great B&D Silver Bell.
cockneybanjo - Posted - 02/23/2012: 04:00:59
my Gremlin has a Cleartone head and a positively huge bridge, and that certainly seems a good set-up on that banjo. My Gold Tone WL250 originally came with a Remco head and now has a Renaissance head,plus a Shubb compensated bridge and as a direct comparison to the OT-800 with the same set-up, the differences are as described
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/23/2012: 04:24:34
John B.,
I take, that you meant far-fetched - my dictionary will not accept the expression/word fat-fetched. LOL! 
Keith wrote: It's sound is ideal for my needs. For various reasons, I would rather not take the Silver Bell out on gigs -- I find that it is too deep, front-to-back, for my comfort, and it's kind of precious (was a presentation model for a famous musician; their name is engraved on the flange).
Hence my remark - why not get an extra B&D - only not that precious - to take out for gigs etc.?
Often complex questions call for simple answers!
If you own a Ferrari and don´t want to use it for going to your shopping center - well - don´t go for a cheap and lousy "shopping car" - buy another and extra Ferrari - and use this for shopping etc. It´s that simple!
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 02/23/2012 04:28:20
zouk_alors - Posted - 02/23/2012: 05:06:32
Good suggestions folks, thanks. I've got a clear 5 Star head sitting around somewhere that I'll try on the Vega Pro, also have a spare Kershner-style tailpiece from Prucha. Maybe I'll order a Bart Veerman bridge. If I get a chance to put it all together soon, I'll report back with the results.
Polle: I would get another Silver Bell in a flash, if I could afford one! In terms of quality of construction, smoothness in playing and sound, I've never seen anything that equals mine (and I work in a well known music shop that specializes in traditional instruments; I get to play vintage tenors all the time). Very, very impressive -- these were exquisite instruments.
Keith
Edited by - zouk_alors on 02/23/2012 05:08:52
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/23/2012: 11:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by zouk_alors
Good suggestions folks, thanks. I've got a clear 5 Star head sitting around somewhere that I'll try on the Vega Pro
Is it a 10 15/16"? If not, the fit will be difficult.
I haven't seen a 5-Star head in that size for over 10 years or more.
Here are the ones that Elderly stocks in that size: elderly.com/accessories/banjo_...size=1015
Medium crown works but I prefer high crown on most Tubaphones.
I find that, when sustain is the goal, tension is more important than the actual composition of the head. I have 4 Tubaphones and a Regent with a LW tone ring.
Bastertone - Posted - 02/23/2012: 14:12:06
I have thee tubaphones, 27 Artist, 30 soloist and a Rickard. The artist is set up with a kershner tail piece and a thiner mylar head and one of Bart bridges on it. It is crisp and sweet with decent sustain and reasonable volume. The soloist has a rogers head and has a plunkier skin head tone but the same sweetness but looses the sustain. The Rickard has a renaissance head and a noknot tailpiece and it comes out in between the two tonally and keeps the sustain. I'm thinking the biggest single contributor to the sustain is the head and its tension.
You might want to get in touch with Bill Rickard. He's taken apart many original tubaphones and has some definite ideas on best setup.
Bass Lady - Posted - 02/23/2012: 16:17:36
Tubaphones rock! But they need to be set up right.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/24/2012: 16:44:19
Keith,
My advice will be - as somehow suggested by others above - try a clear or better a smooth white head, a heavy bridge with large feet and a stiff, strong and adjustable tailpiece.
If you put on only a little down pressure by the TP you´ll get a nice sustain when fretting at the lower end of the fretboard - I take, that you for Irish are using only this part. More down pressure will reduce the sustain, but you´ll get a far better sound equality along all of the fretboard. A must for other playing styles.
Also - many Irish style players are striking very close to the bridge - try moving your striking spot a little away from the bridge. This will most likely add depth and better sustain.
A Tuba Phone tenor can be set up to a beautiful sound and a nice sustain - but only for rather soft striking. It will not respond very well to hard picking. The same goes for most other brands/models - both vintage and newer. The Silver Bell is an exception - it has a tremendous dynamics range unsurpassed by all other brands/models - except for those, who more or less are clones of the Silver Bell - f.ex. some OME models.
BTW - I rebuild all B&D´s and vintage Vega´s passing my house - with a raise of the neck/dowel assembly by 1/8" (I widen the square rim hole upwards by this size) - this rebuild plus maybe a raise of the dowel end or a little shimming gives both a large string/head clearance near the neck (a must for advanced flat picking) and the acceptance of a 5/8" bridge (which allows for heavy down pressure). This is how the flat picking masters had their banjos built or re-built - so Buddy Wachter has told me.
Good Luck
Polle
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