bFunk - Posted - 02/20/2012:  21:35:13

I've run into this problem the last few weeks: I'm playing at an open mic, the audience starts clapping (good thing, means they're into it), but it feels like they're clapping out of rhythm (bad thing). I'm not sure if they're not holding a beat or I'm not holding the beat, but it's annoying either way. Most times I just try to ignore the clapping, but a couple times I try to "catch up" with it (maybe they're clapping ahead of the beat?).

Anybody else encounter this phenomenon? And how did you or do you deal with it?

-Bryce

Paul R - Posted - 02/20/2012:  22:04:27

They may be clapping on the beat and you're playing on the backbeat, or vice versa.

Lou Bourbon - Posted - 02/20/2012:  22:19:30

Audiences rarely clap for banjo players...be happy!

:-)

Lou

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 02/20/2012:  23:24:07

Welcome to the real world. 

Just ignore'em and stay on the beat.

(Obviously)  they'll never know the difference.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 02/20/2012 23:25:10

cockneybanjo - Posted - 02/21/2012:  02:00:46

If you know something they don't, carry on. They are paying and ( presumably ) enjoying themselves, why worry about it? If they can't keep time at first, they won't keep whatever you go to either.

Calv - Posted - 02/21/2012:  02:19:21

I don't know how they do it, the musicians who have to keep a rhythm whilst the audience claps away like a bunch of......well......rythmless clappy things. 

I always think about this when watching Barney's solo from long ago......especially at the end when things get a little faster....

youtube.com/watch?v=kBNOVhWo5Hg 

Calv.

beegee - Posted - 02/21/2012:  05:12:02

the only thing more annoying than an audience clapping along with a tune is when they try to sing along. It never works out well.

Kitt - Posted - 02/21/2012:  05:15:43

I saw a video of Natalie Merchant trying to sing her song "Kind and Generous" to a live audience. The audience began clapping both too loud and too fast. She actually chose to stop singing and speak to them and instruct them to slow it down and to shush it some. So if Natalie Merchant has to deal with off beat audience participants I guess there is no hope for an Open-Mic-Night banjo player.

ZEPP - Posted - 02/21/2012:  05:39:48

I've seen Doc Watson stop picking  to clap his own hands up over his head  to get the audience in time while he was singing.  Of course, this doesn't work too well for solo instrumentals...

Edited to add:  That reminds me:  The Freight Hoppers were playing at a bar here in Raleigh back in the Bass, Fridley, & Lee days, and someone at a table right in front of them started playing spoons.  Frank Lee stopped the band's playing and told the spoonest in no uncertain terms that he had to stop right that instant and promise not to do it again, or the band was walking out.  (He stopped.)

Cheers,

ZEPP

Edited by - ZEPP on 02/21/2012 05:56:01

Jim Yates - Posted - 02/21/2012:  07:22:45

Audiences often tend to speed up while clapping along.  We struggle through to the end of the song, but often they'll realize that they're no longer with us and they'll stop.  On some tunes it will work if you throw in a pause at the end of a verse to break the rhythm.  Only the most rhythmically challenged audience members will continue clapping.

Clawdan - Posted - 02/21/2012:  07:29:12

Welcome to the performance world. Happens all the time. Like Lou and RD said, be glad they clap and keep on going.

Dan

doublestandard - Posted - 02/21/2012:  07:29:22

i feel for you, sometimes the music is ever so slightly delayed, as it relays from the feel of you playing the note, the audience hearing it, you hearing it and then you hearing the clapping, there are problems that come about with this. Sometimes the audience doesnt know how to deal with syncopation, haha but i never look encouragingly at a crowd to clap along.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 02/21/2012:  08:27:25

Maybe you're just marching to the beat of a different drummer!!! 

mcate - Posted - 02/21/2012:  08:34:46

It's kind of like watching people dance to a big band tune off the beat, or not

even close to the beat while playing in the band. Has never failed to amaze

me that someone, or a couple, can dance to music, not be at the correct tempo,

and not even notice.

wroobin - Posted - 02/21/2012:  08:45:26

DoubleStandard has a good point. One thing to think about is that sound doesn't travel as fast as we think it does. I forget the exact numbers but something in the neighborhood of 30 feet away it takes 30 to 50 milliseconds for your ear to receive the signal. That's right about the point where the brain can pickup that there's some latency involved. By the time the clap gets back to the performer your at 60-100 millisecnds no that's really noticeable. So it's going to be next to impossible for an audience in an arena to get their clapping in time especially to the perspective of the performer. And even in small clubs the effect is big enough to cause issues especially when the Jam circle gets pretty big.

Pig_Eyed_Jackson - Posted - 02/21/2012:  09:06:44

The NGDB use to teach the audience how to clap on the down beat, kinda like Pete teaching the folks how to sing along.

gailg64 - Posted - 02/21/2012:  09:07:15

Thanks--good information about the speed of sound actually being a significant part of the clapping problem. There's really no way anyone, especially a group in a large echo-y-room, could EVER appear to clap on time from the perspective of the performer. It's not their fault. Maybe there should be posters with this info at large venues--or little handouts. "We are happy you like the music, BUT..."

 That sense of dread that used to come over me when the crazy off-beat clapping started coming at me was the one of the main reasons I never liked (hated!) performing. Now that I'm an elderly curmudgeon-ette, I prefer playing in nothing larger than a kitchen or living room with a small handful of like-minded old friends.

G

of quote:

---

Originally posted by wroobin

DoubleStandard has a good point. One thing to think about is that sound doesn't travel as fast as we think it does. I forget the exact numbers but something in the neighborhood of 30 feet away it takes 30 to 50 milliseconds for your ear to receive the signal. That's right about the point where the brain can pickup that there's some latency involved. By the time the clap gets back to the performer your at 60-100 millisecnds no that's really noticeable. So it's going to be next to impossible for an audience in an arena to get their clapping in time especially to the perspective of the performer. And even in small clubs the effect is big enough to cause issues especially when the Jam circle gets pretty big.

---

janolov - Posted - 02/21/2012:  09:42:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by wroobin

DoubleStandard has a good point. One thing to think about is that sound doesn't travel as fast as we think it does. I forget the exact numbers but something in the neighborhood of 30 feet away it takes 30 to 50 milliseconds for your ear to receive the signal. That's right about the point where the brain can pickup that there's some latency involved. By the time the clap gets back to the performer your at 60-100 millisecnds no that's really noticeable. So it's going to be next to impossible for an audience in an arena to get their clapping in time especially to the perspective of the performer. And even in small clubs the effect is big enough to cause issues especially when the Jam circle gets pretty big.

---

I made a deeper analysis of this statement, and even if your figures are exactly right I think the time laps of the sound still may be a factor. The speed of sound is 1126 ft/s (in room temperature). That means it takes 0.0266 seconds (26,6 milliseconds) to travel 30 ft. Or slightly more than 50 milliseconds (0.05 seconds) from you sound a tone until the clap comes to your ear. If you play a fast tune you play around 10 eighth notes per second. So the clap comes a half eight note later than it is played. That may be enough to spoil the rhythm for the performer.

novosel - Posted - 02/21/2012:  20:27:38

This drives me crazy when I'm in the audience at live shows. It seems like I always end up sitting next to the least rhythmic person in the entire place, and they usually feel they should clap along with every good song...It's enough to ruin an entire concert for me. I wish so badly there was a polite way to get people to just stop the godawful clapping!

Bart McNeil - Posted - 02/22/2012:  01:14:43

I think it is outrageous for the audience to clap (or singalong) unless invited to do so by the performer. If I make the effort or pay money to see and hear a performance I don't need my neighbors help nor does the performer. I think the performer should stop and inform the audience that he is the performer, not them. In other words, embarass them into silence, if that is possible.

Or the advertising should state that the performance is a singalong type situation... so that people are warned.

maryzcox - Posted - 02/22/2012:  05:34:10

Lol:) Boy are we ever lucky with sing along audiences--most we have encountered actually sing wonderful and in harmony too! Especially the audiences at Cal Tech, JC Campbell School! And the Cracker Coffee House at the Stephen Foster State Park. Come to think of it--we had really good singers in Charlotte and Albuquerque too.
There is a method to this madness. We do ask good singers to hop on stage and sing with us for sing a longs and if it is a coffee house, we ask the other entertainers to sit in the audience and sing loud during any sing a long--they help keep the others in tune and time. Actually, audiences that come only to hear the music usually are good singers--but if they are in a bar or drinking environment-- then you start to hear the offbeat.
About the only way to successfully deal with off beat clapping is to bring at least 2 good percussionists with you and put them on good mics on each end of the stage and have them clap in good time to your music--most folks, even drinking, can follow a strong lead :)

banjoy - Posted - 02/22/2012:  06:27:30

Okay. Try this: some folks are clapping, some folks are clogging (with those little clickety-clackety thingys on their shoes) and someone else is playing spoons. To a bluegrass tune. All at the same time. At a paid gig.

It gets interesting. You do the math.

It's all good. Weird and interesting, but that can be good too LOL.

bFunk - Posted - 02/22/2012:  08:58:28

Glad to find out I'm not alone in struggling with it.

-Bryce

Helix - Posted - 02/22/2012:  14:35:16

They are lonely and we are privileged, to be irritated is to lack insight into why they've come to see you. It's the warmth. Love this music and love those people, it's hard.

I've had hitchchikers suddenly sit down at a drum set. I agree with stoppage.

Also, we are responsible if someone spins out while enjoying the flow. I had a guy hit his head against a building, dancing to my tunes on the street (in a former lifestyle). I held a gun and made him drink alot of alcohol, then I made HIM hold the gun.

ALWAYS be aware of what is happening around you, watch what is going on.

Here's an idea, start them clapping first, then sail off into oblivion.

We are in the top 5%, we were given gifts to develop. Others are not so lucky. Just play.

Helix Mariner

AlpacaLips - Posted - 02/22/2012:  16:47:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart McNeil

...

Or the advertising should state that the performance is a singalong type situation... so that people are warned.

---

Singalongs are EVIL. I don't even like going to performances of The Messiah because of the custom of standing during the Hallelujah chorus. Aside from the fact that for most of the (usually) non-Christian audience it is a thoroughly empty gesture, even that silent motion is too much audience participation for my taste.

But then, I own this shirt:thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/.../?i=front

welder4 - Posted - 02/23/2012:  19:08:39

As the old Marine said : Adapt and over come .

hickorysmokebbq - Posted - 02/23/2012:  19:59:22

That's happened to our group. A couple of times they were all around the beat. Some before some on and some after. Once someone broke out a tambourine and I just about freaked out. Being the bass player I always have to try to block it out.......

Edited by - hickorysmokebbq on 02/23/2012 20:02:40

banjoak - Posted - 02/23/2012:  20:21:34

One thing that works pretty well is to guide them with your foot, not just a subtle 1/4 inch lift and tap, but an obvious 6 inch off the ground and down, and if appropriate to the music making a loud downbeat sound on contact. 

Some folks march to the beat of a different spoon player, no?

lcjones - Posted - 02/23/2012:  21:19:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by welder4

As the old Marine said : Adapt and over come .

---

:) ... thank them all for participating but you're the band leader. And I love audience participation.... gives them a one-on-one link to you, a sense of camaraderie and keeps them involved in your show.

willieco - Posted - 02/25/2012:  11:47:17

i try to get people to sing along, especially in care centers and i sing weekly with alzheimers patients. any response from them is good. however, in performance or at church, off rhythm clapping, or 1 and3 instead of 2 and 4, can be maddening! as a soloist i come to a pause or "tacit"  and sometimes it works to stop the noise.

willieco - Posted - 02/25/2012:  11:48:26

i try to get people to sing along, especially in care centers and i sing weekly with alzheimers patients. any response from them is good. however, in performance or at church, off rhythm clapping, or 1 and3 instead of 2 and 4, can be maddening! as a soloist i come to a pause or "tacit"  and sometimes it works to stop the noise.

banjoak - Posted - 02/25/2012:  13:54:41

One thing I noticed (besides the clapping on the off beat, and the speed of sound delay issue) - You kick into a fast lively fiddle tune, getting folks burst into clapping along on on beat, sounds great- but due to their attentions span or stamina, it gradually starts to wane (being slightly behind the beat) and the energy level goes down, becoming somewhat anti-climatic at the end. Usually you want the energy level to go the other way. 

I can only think of a few solutions to this. You might not want to start with (implying in various ways) folks to clap along, as they are only good for about a minute and a half of that. As well, at whatever point they start clapping along, it might cause you to think "their loving this, let's play it through one more time" - it is sometimes better to keep it short. 

stanley hill - Posted - 02/29/2012:  15:48:49

you could use a flashing light in sync with your basic beat and ask the audience to clap to this.I prefer the audience to listen and enjoy and not clap.I dont clap when Im listing to a artist performing.stanley hill