steve davis - Posted - 11/04/2011:  11:55:13

Every once in a while the "...dangers of relying too much on tab..." warnings go off.

I happen to think that tabs are one of the best ways to write down and practice the roll sequences that we want to have become second-nature or play a certain tune over and over until it gets burned in or jot down original ideas.

Working easily with tab has a bunch of advantages,none having to do with over reliance,but rather in creating and learning,quickly.

Repitition is a key tool in learning as witnessed in the Scruggs book(x1000).

I just think it's too bad to put down any of the great learning tools we possess,today.They all can help a great deal and there aren't any "bad" ones.

Learning how to use a tool properly makes it much more effective and efficient.

kirbonite - Posted - 11/04/2011:  12:05:49

I agree.  I think tab is valuable.  It is more or less a banjo players way to read music.

I used to just read tab and that was it.. but now I challenge myself to re-arrange it to suit my own playing style or sometimes I work on the song in a different key

because, if you play with singers, you never know what key you'll end up in.   I think once you do that you're making the most of tab rather than just building memory.

either way. .. both are valuable.  learning a little basic music theory will help you understand what you are doing with the tab as well.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/04/2011:  12:16:41

You're right, Steve, but IMO people should also keep a number of things in mind while doing what you suggest.

For example. tab is indeed an easy way to illustrate a roll sequence, but ordinarily that tab illustration will show the roll over very specific strings when most rolls, in fact, are far more versatile.  Rarely does that tab illustration ever show that a 2152 1521 forward roll can also be a 3153 1531 roll or a 2153 1521 or 3154 1521 roll, etc., etc.

Yes, tab can record the playing of a tune -- but it doesn't necessary record the tune's rhythm accurately.  Tab will always read that a tune is to be played in "straight eighths" even if that is not the way it needs to be played.

Plus, people should keep in mind that this is a tab for this song, not the tab for the song.  Playing the same song in different ways is a hallmark of this kind of music.  When something is reduced to writing, people tend to forget that it hasn't also been carved in stone.

This doesn't minimize tab's value as a tool.  But, as with any tool, safety precautions must be taken.

eagle32 - Posted - 11/04/2011:  12:20:09

I work with tab when i can get ahold of it for a song i am wanting to learn.  It is a great tool for me to quicken the learning process of a song,  the end result of my playing usually is not 100% of the original tab.  I think it is a great tool and definetly increases my speed to learning a song.

tbfnyc - Posted - 11/04/2011:  13:03:28

Tab is a useful tool, especially for very complicated tunes, but it is just one tool out of many. What is much more valuable is to develop the ability to play by ear: Learn common chord progressions. Learn how to improvise by knowing your movable chord forms and by building up a "library" of licks surrounding those chords. That is key to real mastery of the instrument.

Doc Boggs, and Earl Scruggs, and Don Reno didn't have any tab to look at. They learned by listening to other players and watching what they do and then thinking about and experimenting with what those other players did.

If you want to use a great learning tool that we have today, get on YouTube then watch and listen. Download videos and mp3s and slow them down, that's also a great modern learning tool.

Tablature is an excellent learning tool but it must be used in moderation or it can easily become a crutch. I've seen it happen time and again.

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/04/2011:  13:34:20

I see people who are 'addicted to arrangements,' whether written or played.

That's different than being unable to hear what's going on around you.

I see people who play along with -certain- records very well but they can't actually hear what's going on at a jam and I wonder if they've just practiced memorization skills from a dvd or teacher along with the record instead of played along by ear. Reliance on memorization is not -caused- by tab.

And being able to hear chord progression changes is not the same thing as being able to improvise. 

------------------------------------------------------

Being able to read tab and use tab in your playing is no more detrimental to playing or improvising music than reading good literature is detrimental to the writing or telling of your own thoughts.

BC - Posted - 11/04/2011:  14:14:35

I count the times I have used tab on one hand and have fingers left over. I have never been a fan. I do better just watching or listening to someone play or videos etc.

steve davis - Posted - 11/04/2011:  14:31:25

I would never have learned how to pick a banjo if it wasn't for tabs.

BC - Posted - 11/04/2011:  14:53:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I would never have learned how to pick a banjo if it wasn't for tabs.

---

 I really don't understand that? I tried tabs in the beginning but it was so slow to me it was agony. Yea I did slow a lot of records down to figure stuff out but that was still faster to me than tab. Do you get used to reading tab fast enough to quickly figure a song out? Maybe I did not give it a fair chance?

FretlessinTexas - Posted - 11/04/2011:  15:33:39

It'll form as a habit and seep in your soul, til the stream of your blood runs as black as the coal. Yessir, that's what that tab will do to a man. I've seen it with my own eyes. That tab, it's a killer I tell you.

spaz - Posted - 11/04/2011:  15:34:28

i am a big fan of tab and it was indispensible for my learning process.

that said, if there is anything i've noticed about a downside for myself it was that it allowed me to learn the pickings without 'feeling' the chords (i could see the chords in the tab, but thats different than knowing/feeling where they are in the song, if you know what i mean). I think the best way to avoid this is to have your teacher play lead while you play backup for a song you know the tab to. you'll notice very quickly whether this has happened. my teacher used to do this and it was very useful. there were songs I could play perfect lead to but i could not even strum the chords to, and thats no good.

one other thing my teacher used to do was give me a tabbed version of a song, then after i'd learned it, ask me to come up with alternative rolls to play the same song.

spaz - Posted - 11/04/2011:  15:35:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by FretlessinTexas

It'll form as a habit and seep in your soul, til the stream of your blood runs as black as the coal. Yessir, that's what that tab will do to a man. I've seen it with my own eyes. That tab, it's a killer I tell you.

---

awesome!  i could barely read that without singing it..  my favorite version:

youtube.com/watch?v=9s3_1OcFSHQ

Jim Yates - Posted - 11/04/2011:  15:54:07

Although there are many folks who don't believe in writing music down, It seems that I see the most "anti-transcribing" sentiment among bluegrass players.  Jazz is as much, if not more of an improvisational music as is bluegrass, yet it is not unusual to see a jazz player with a fake book. 

I agree with minstrelmike's comment that folks can become addicted to arrangements, no matter how they learn them.  Whether you learn a tune from Tab or from a recording or from a fiddle tune book or from another musician makes no difference.  If you play it note for note the way you learned it from the record or another musician, the results are no different than someone who plays it note for note from the Tab or note for note from a fiddle tune book.  Sometimes it is a good thing to be able to play something note for note accurately (when someone is playing a harmony line with you is one good example) yet sometimes we want to break away from the melody and apply our own ideas to the piece.

Gymbal31 - Posted - 11/04/2011:  16:03:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Yates

 Whether you learn a tune from Tab or from a recording or from a fiddle tune book or from another musician makes no difference.  If you play it note for note the way you learned it from the record or another musician, the results are no different than someone who plays it note for note from the Tab or note for note from a fiddle tune book.  Sometimes it is a good thing to be able to play something note for note accurately (when someone is playing a harmony line with you is one good example) yet sometimes we want to break away from the melody and apply our own ideas to the piece.

Thank you Jim!  This makes the most sense to me as any argument for or against tab ever has. 

And it makes sense to learn a song the way other people know it.  A song comes up in a jam session, you want at least one break to sound like the melody.  It's the real musicians that can play their first break the way it's "supposed" to sound and then improvise their second break without losing the key or melody.

steve davis - Posted - 11/04/2011:  16:27:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by BC

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I would never have learned how to pick a banjo if it wasn't for tabs.

---

 I really don't understand that? I tried tabs in the beginning but it was so slow to me it was agony. Yea I did slow a lot of records down to figure stuff out but that was still faster to me than tab. Do you get used to reading tab fast enough to quickly figure a song out? Maybe I did not give it a fair chance?

---

 I played for my first 15 years with a flatpick.

Nobody knew anything about Earl Scruggs in Port Clyde in those days.

Eddie Peabody was considered the best banjo player in the world.

I listened to a couple of records,but I couldn't figure out how they did that.

When I was in the army a fellow named Weiss from West Virginia showed the famous "Shave and a haircut" ending that ends at 17.That was the first person I saw in person pick a banjo.

As soon as I got the Wernick book I learned my first rolls.I already knew the neck so I was picking pretty soon after the book.

Everybody learns different.Geography can have quite a lot to do with it.

pcfive - Posted - 11/04/2011:  17:43:33

The danger with tab is in thinking bluegrass is like classical music, where you learn primarily by reading music. I went from playing classical guitar to bluegrass banjo, not realizing at first how different they are. Bluegrass is sort of like a language, with a structure and vocabulary. Well, you could say that about any musical style, I realize. But what I mean is that since bluegrass is improvisational, you memorize the vocabulary rather than the songs. Once you know some vocabulary, then you can play most of the standard songs.

I think that through the ages music was mostly improvisational -- you start with a basic framework which you elaborate on and add ornamentation. Then the classical era came along and no one wanted to deviate from what the composer wrote down.

So my approach to music was not flexible because I spent so many years playing classical music (or trying to, I should say). I had to change my whole approach and attitude. Now I really appreciate the freedom and flexibility of bluegrass. Now I think this is how music is supposed to be, and almost always was.

Therefore, I think tabs should be used differently from classical music. Tab helps you see where Scruggs used a certain lick in a certain place in a certain type of song, and this is very helpful. it would be hard to do this by just listening and having to slow down the recordings.

So I think beginners are warned about tab because they might use it as the primary way of learning songs, which it should not be. When I started learning banjo I would try to play songs by reading tabs, when I had never even heard the song. Now that was pretty dumb, but I didn't know otherwise.

Edited by - pcfive on 11/04/2011 17:45:44

tbfnyc - Posted - 11/04/2011:  18:18:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Eddie Peabody was considered the best banjo player in the world.

---

I remember him. "Eddie Playbody will now pee for you". Old joke -- showing my age.

kirbonite - Posted - 11/04/2011:  18:28:15

I agree with pc5     .  I once played classical guitar as well.  these guys always show up with stacks of sheet music... It is not frowned upon.  If you learned to read music then tab is a logical progession IMO. 

Banjo is unique I can not help but change things around.. i don't think I'd ever do that on guitar.

btw.  I learned santa clause from tab.. I've still never heard a recording of it.. if anyone wants to send me an mp3  it would be smiled upon 

we don't know if  The magic flute is played the way Mozart intended but that does not stop people from playing it.

Edited by - kirbonite on 11/04/2011 18:32:29

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 11/04/2011:  19:25:13

All you have to do to pick out the tab based players is to listen to them... Tab is a great tool to develope a foundation or the basics, or as a shortcut to see how a song goes... but that doesn't automatically convert to music andor picking...

I had a buddy (dead now) That had Earls touch, sounded great in what he played.. But get outside of the 20 or so songs he had down and he was totally lost... couldn't even put the fundamentals together to get by..

Theres a point where you need to be playing music, not rote memorization...By knowing where the sound is on the neck (association) when you hear or need it... It shortcuts the work and input effort required enormously.. Just listen and you know what their doing, pick up your banjo and play it...

steve davis - Posted - 11/04/2011:  19:29:06

Well'I've learned an awful lot of tunes and licks from tab in the last 36 years,but I
find it very easy to sit in with just about anyone and play what I feel.

Probably because that's what I started with.

kirbonite - Posted - 11/04/2011:  19:54:33

It can become a crutch but does not have to.. it depends on your approach.  I know where all of the notes are on the neck so I can re-arrange.  I realize many people can not do this.

also agreed,  you must play with others.. bottom line.. I never have tab in a jam session.   I  may make notes of chord changes though.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/04/2011:  21:48:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Yates

Whether you learn a tune from Tab or from a recording or from a fiddle tune book or from another musician makes no difference.  If you play it note for note the way you learned it from the record or another musician, the results are no different than someone who plays it note for note from the Tab or note for note from a fiddle tune book.  Sometimes it is a good thing to be able to play something note for note accurately (when someone is playing a harmony line with you is one good example) yet sometimes we want to break away from the melody and apply our own ideas to the piece.

---

The real question is whether any beginning banjo student should learn to play anything note for note -- from tab, recordings, note-by-note instruction, or any other source -- until after he or she has learned the basics, all which can be learned -- and perhaps more effectively -- in other ways.

You don't need any of these note-for-note tools to learn chords and to recognize chord progressions.  You don't need any more than brief illustrations to learn rolls.  You don't need note-for-note arrangements to play rolls over a chord progression.  You don't need complete arrangements to add melody notes into a roll.  You can learn how to add some basic ornamentation without having it written out or shown to you note-for-note.

IMHO, the tab problem is not that it's used as a tool, but that it's used as a beginner's tool (from which the beginner then must "break away").  It needn't be and, as far as I am concerned, it shouldn't be.  Beginners should focus of developing a rolling rhythm (with various rolls) over the proper chord progression, adding the melody (to more than one roll), and some basic ornamentation.  You don't need tab (except perhaps a few snippets) for any of that.  Tab is a good tool, but it should be a post-beginner's tool -- a source for further ideas, alternative ways of playing an ornamented melody, or new fill-in phrases.  If players didn't use note-for-note arrangements until after learning the basics, there wouldn't be any concern about tab becoming a "crutch" or an "addiction."

The big problem is that this kind of beginner instruction is very hard to mass market.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/04/2011 21:57:17

adadrian - Posted - 11/04/2011:  22:13:47

i love tab........dont think id be playing today i f it wasnt for tab

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 11/05/2011:  06:20:49

Speaking from my own experience, I don't see how anyone can play a tune the same way for a long period of time- say months or years. No matter how it is learned- tab, memory from watching someone else, slowing down a record or whatever. After the tab starts gathering dust, a person's individual preferences start to creep in to the arrangement. I have looked at tab for a tune I learned long ago and realized that I had unconsciously substituted different rolls and licks for the ones I originally learned. Same thing with slowing down recordings.

I think all of us will probably play something exactly the way we learned it for a while. But no matter how we learned it, I believe our own tastes will find it's way into the arrangement, and it may continue to change as time goes by.

Bottom line: Learn any way you can and just pick it!

YOMV

Mike.

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/05/2011:  06:55:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by BC

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I would never have learned how to pick a banjo if it wasn't for tabs.

---

 I really don't understand that? I tried tabs in the beginning but it was so slow to me it was agony. Yea I did slow a lot of records down to figure stuff out but that was still faster to me than tab. Do you get used to reading tab fast enough to quickly figure a song out? Maybe I did not give it a fair chance?

---

I love tab because I can read it faster than I can listen to people play.

But I think you've given it a good enough chance. To me, it's got two uses. One is for showing basics to folks. You tried it and it didn't work and you learned the basics other ways. That's _exactly_ what I think folks 'should' do--try a few different learning methods at first and go with the one that seems to fit you best (at first).

The other advantage of tab is finding new licks from fancy versions. If you can pull new licks off of records, then again, go with what works.

I have no problem with folks going with what works.

What I don't like is people trying to steer folks away from TAB based on old wive's tales.

Tab doesn't restrict anybody any more than any other learning method does.

The student's attitude is what restricts or enlightens more than anything else.

Tab is a tool. Like most tools, it can be used in the wrong way but that is not the fault of the tool.

chuckthompson - Posted - 11/05/2011:  06:55:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenneth Logsdon

All you have to do to pick out the tab based players is to listen to them...

---

Not trying to be rude here, but i just do not believe this statement. You are saying learning from tablature inhibits the ability to feel the music as you're playing. I say learning from TAB is no different than learning 'note-for-note' Murphy style...for all we know, the teacher may be reading it off a tab sheet while they're teaching it. I notice Tony has sheets of some form of musical notation in front of him while he's teaching at the Academy of Bluegrass. Do we inherit this supposed 'lack of feel' if we're learning from an instructor that's reading tab?

Chuck

banjoman56 - Posted - 11/05/2011:  07:04:57

I would be willing to bet that without tab, there would not be many really good banjo players. It's a great tool, just not the only one. My biggest problem with tab is that it seems to be harder to recover from a mistake when playing a tune learned from tab than it is playing one learned by ear.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  07:37:40

Tab is different.  It doesn't tell you why.  And I don't see how people can learn to play the banjo -- not just something very specific on the banjo -- without understanding why they're doing what they're doing.

Some people have modified the tab to help you understand some of the why -- like highlighting the melody notes -- but that's a small percentage of the tab people use.

I've also seen note-by-note instruction that doesn't explain much beyond where to put your fingers, but at least that has a greater capacity for showing the why part.

This is why I believe that beginners should start elsewhere, and first learn the layered nature of this music (chords, rolls over chords, melody notes added, ornamentation added) as a process, not an already-completed whole.  Then they'll be in a better position to understand the why, be able to read the tab more intelligently, and use it with more discrimination.

A book like Janet Davis' "Splitting the Licks" tries to show this layered approach.  It builds each arrangement through five steps.  But it does so with complete tab illustrations of each step -- which has always made me wonder:  How many people follow each of Janet's five steps for all of the songs she illustrates note-for-note?  Isn't that self-contradictory? 

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:05:15

People with a deep understanding of music also use tab.One doesn't affect the other.

Not recovering well after a mistake has nothing to do with tab and everything to do
with knowing where you are at all times.

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:23:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

People with a deep understanding of music also use tab.One doesn't affect the other.



Not recovering well after a mistake has nothing to do with tab and everything to do

with knowing where you are at all times.

---

 Actually tab can help greatly with achieving a deeper understanding of music.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:24:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

People with a deep understanding of music also use tab.

---

Maybe so -- but I'll bet they had that understanding before using the tab.  I doubt the got it from the tab.  And the issue is whether people who use tab, without more, get an understanding of music, not the reverse.

Sure, once you gain that understanding, studying tab can give you a "deeper understanding" -- but the question is: what's the best way to get the initial basic understanding.

As for recovering from mistakes, any note-for-note learning makes that difficult.  If you only know how to play notes Y and Z after you've first played note X, and then you stumble over note X, notes Y and Z will be more difficult to find.  However, if your foundation is rolling over the chord progression and you drop some melody notes, you're still rolling over the chord progression and can still add in future melody notes when you come to them.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/05/2011 08:32:37

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:25:12

You can study how to play solely from listening to the music and using tab.

And you can become a fine player in so doing.

People bring their own creativity to any endeavor(unless they have no imagination)

Edited by - steve davis on 11/05/2011 08:26:38

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:46:55

I used a tab to first figure out bluegrass-style picking.

Train 45 came first but it didn't sound like a song to me.

Then I did Grandfather's Clock and could hear the melody, either because it was clear in the tab or because I was already familiar with the song.

Or maybe both.

Anyway, Immediately after I got thru the tabbed version, I also started singing the song with chords and playing the lead and modifying it so the word-notes (melody) came out even stronger and I added pauses and dropped one tricky section to make it easier to get the entire song coming out of my instrument.

If you use tab like the holy Bible, then it is restrictive.

If you use tab to enhance your knowledge of music, then it isn't restrictive.

Nothing to do with the same piece of tab used differently by different folks.

The tab I used was written by Sonny Osborne. I don't know if he used tab to learn but he certainly didn't think it would hurt me. Same with the tab in Earl's book. Tony Trischka and Bela Fleck also use tab. They don't suck. (Or if they do in your mind, it ain't because they use tab ;-)

Edited by - minstrelmike on 11/05/2011 08:48:33

BC - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:51:20

I see new players at jams on ocassion that do not ever take the lead, they just stay in the background and pick quietly. If I get close to them I hear them picking note for note correctly, just like the recording. But they seem to have no sense of rythym or or how to recover when things go wrong in a song like if the singer uses a different chord base or something that the original. If it is a song they have never played they seem to be completly lost. I don't think tab in any way teaches music.

There may be more than one way to load the wagon but to me I would and did learn music first before I learned leads, kick offs etc. I think you have to first be able to follow along with a song before you can lead a song.

Blue Cheese - Posted - 11/05/2011:  08:53:02

After learning rolls, I then started on tab and having been using it ever since. The way I use it now is... learn the chords to the piece, pick it with some rolls and melody notes I picked up from listening to the song played by someone else. Than I learn the note for note arrangement. After I have that down tell I can play it without the music, I'm set. If my solo falls apart, I can just fall back upon the chords. (something I learned form the 1 Ross Nickerson DVD I have)

BUT I didn't always do this, sadly. At first I wouldn't learn the chords and rolls etc. and just pick the melody note for note and play it as is. This way of learn does have problems. It was my turn to solo on Turkey in the Straw for a gig. We kicked off the tune at a break neck speed and my solo was to notey and I couldn't play it as that speed so I totally messed up the A part haha. That's is when I started doing the above method. :)

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:00:27

According to MOT5SB​, neither Osborne, Scruggs, nor Trischka learned from tab.  If they used it in their instruction books, it might be because they had no other choice.  That's how instruction books work, unfortunately.  [As I'm sure you know, Scruggs couldn't even read the tab in his own book.  He had to have Bill Keith play it for him.]

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:03:05

Tab is just someone showing you where to put the fingers.Just abourt like when somebody showed Earl or Sonny how they did something.
The rest has to come from within each of our own senses.

Tab is a good thing and never hurt nobody.

Jim Yates - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:05:02

  There are many fantastically creative musicians who learned to play from written music.  I don't advocate using tab or standard notation as the only method of learning, but it is a very useful tool.  I will often jot down a lick on a napkin or the corner of a program that I see a player do when I'm in the audience.  If I had a banjo on my knee, I wouldn't need to jot it down, but chances are I'll forget it by the time I get home.  I'm glad I know how Tab and standard notation work even though I'd been playing for years before I took the time to learn.

   Many of our most creative musicians learned by reading from a piece of paper and still read and write music today. 

   Yehudi Menuhin, Pete Wernick, Oscar Peterson, Pete Seeger, YoYo Ma and Tony Trischka have all used Tab or notation and don't seem to have suffered from it.

  Granted, it's not for everyone, but just because it doesn't work for you, don't try to get rid of it for all of us.  It has its uses and its limitations.

Edited by - Jim Yates on 11/05/2011 09:10:10

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:07:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blue Cheese

BUT I didn't always do this, sadly. At first I wouldn't learn the chords and rolls etc. and just pick the melody note for note and play it as is. This way of learn does have problems. It was my turn to solo on Turkey in the Straw for a gig. We kicked off the tune at a break neck speed and my solo was to notey and I couldn't play it as that speed so I totally messed up the A part haha. That's is when I started doing the above method. :) 

---

That's another advantage of the layered approach.  Whatever you add, you can also subtract.  You can subtract the ornamentation, for example.  You can subtract the more complex right-hand patterns for something more basic.  That way you can play something faster if you have to.

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:12:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

According to MOT5SB​, neither Osborne, Scruggs, nor Trischka learned from tab.  If they used it in their instruction books, it might be because they had no other choice.  That's how instruction books work, unfortunately.  [As I'm sure you know, Scruggs couldn't even read the tab in his own book.  He had to have Bill Keith play it for him.]

---

So those professionals are selling books that won't help you -because- they use tab.

Is that your stance?

I agree there are limitations to all methods.

But the methods aren't what place limitations on the student.

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:20:27

Those professionals are communicating in the best way the written medium affords.

I learned to play bluegrass-style melodies by listening to an instructional CD of someone (a) playing a song whose tune I knew well, (b) with some simple rolls I understood, so that (c) the adjustment of the ordinary roll pattern to accommodate and include the melody became clear, distinct, and recognizable.  The light bulb going on was almost instantaneous -- by far my biggest "Ah, ha!" banjo moment.

Edited by - Rich Weill on 11/05/2011 09:33:14

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:23:43

The finished product comes from our own minds and abilities.
Deciding what notes to play and how to play them.

Richard Dress - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:37:43

This is an interesting topic, Rich.  Steve Davis got all the way through to the end of the story with his two lines.  This is my take using more words.

For showing a beginner the basic banjo moves, you can't beat tab.  If you show me a lick I want to learn, I want the tab.  Tab is a great learning tool.  Every serious Scruggs player should learn all of Earl Scruggs' early material note for note.  If tab works for you better than ear, then use the tab.  Learning Earl's banjo moves is not the same as learning to play music, however.  No amount of tab can teach one to play music.

There is another way that tab can turn on you and drag you down, if you are not careful. Tab is static and one-dimensional.  A tab is just a single point in musical space.  A musician needs to be able to move freely throughout his musical space, and tab only provides the occasional stepping stone.

Why are banjo breaks not all the same?  Is it variation for variation's sake?  Why not  just learn the tab for every 'best' banjo break.  That was the idea I had when I put together my three ring binder of tab, collected from every possible source available, BU, BNL, workshops, teachers, other pickers collections, etc..  A big binder of all the good breaks from the bluegrass banjo greats was my answer.  (Wrong answer--not enough binders to hold it all.)

For pickers who are climbing the ladder of expertise, the question comes up: why not pick the best Scruggs break for "Handsome Molly" and go with that?  Why did Ralph Stanley and Eddie Adcock, just to pick two examples, each come up with their own breaks to bluegrass songs?  Earl, Ralph, and Eddie played what seemed natural to them.  They had no one to show them the rolls and licks.  They sparsely listened to what they liked and came up with a style that matched their own personal musical story.  What paths they chose are probably not the same as for you and me.  They didn't seem interested in copying each other's stuff.  I believe that if Earl, Ralph, and Eddie were to try each other's style, they would not be very comfortable with playing that way and they would be glad to revert to their own thing.  By the same token, we would also be more comfortable in our own style (if we had one) than in theirs, or anyone else's.

What is the best way to master a break to a song?  Maybe learn the Ralph Stanley break as well as the Scruggs break and play half and half?  Won't that sound good?  Maybe throw in a quarter break of Reno and a 4 measure Bela lick to be cool?  At some point I think every upwardly mobile picker is going to be faced with that conundrum.  Which way to go?  Memorize more stuff or develop a style?  I think every good banjo player has chosen to go for the style and the musical freedom it provides, rather than be weighed down with the chains of tab..

minstrelmike - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:47:45

The lightbulb went off in my head -because- of the tab I was reading.

I could review it and think about it and play it and study it without being distracted the way trying to hear patterns in a non-stop barrage of notes played by an instructor would have affected me.

Kind of the same way all those numbers and lines on a piece of tab paper can really confuse certain people and not provide any sort of understanding whatsoever.

I'm with Steve. The people who put down tab are doing a disservice to all the folks who should be trying everything and discovering what works best for them.

Earl's book came with a CD AND Tab. And lots of verbiage. And additional instructions hidden in the verbiage for those who pay attention.

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  09:52:56

Tab doesn't tell you why?
Dad didn't tell me why when he taught me to play by ear.

He did say a couple of times,"It don't matter why...it just is."

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  10:31:18

I think we can all agree that learning from tab is a far better method than something worse.  And it may be the best learning tool for some people. But when I read people here listing the instructional alternatives available to beginners -- and they're all note-for-note alternatives -- I get concerned that some beginners may conclude that these are their only options.  That tab seems like a good choice because they've been handed only the first page of the menu.

steve davis - Posted - 11/05/2011:  10:34:50

Why would anyone think there's only one way to do something?

After they get sick of playing it the same way over and over they can get on with playing it different.

Edited by - steve davis on 11/05/2011 10:37:49

Rich Weill - Posted - 11/05/2011:  10:39:17

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Every serious Scruggs player should learn all of Earl Scruggs' early material note for note.  If tab works for you better than ear, then use the tab.

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Although I often have difficulty, Richard, parsing your charming sarcasm from your serious statements, I'm assuming that the above is a serious statement.  My only reservation with it is the "when" question.  When should you do this?  As I've said here, I consider this advanced learning.

marcel - Posted - 11/05/2011:  10:47:12

I started playin banjo this past July, as I also became a member here at BHO. As I have been studying all pertinent info here, I continue to find 'Tab vs No Tab' conversations. I sincerely don't understand and hope no one tries to explain it to me. lol I don't wanna know.

However, its been tremendously helpful to me, (Tab), and I don't see it as any form of disease as some have implied. After I go through it a few times on a new song, I don't wanna see it anymore, Im to busy locking it into my fingers and mind, nor do I need to see it anymore. I may refer back to it on occasion.

Of course, I use audio/video recordings in conjunction with tab, and the tef viewer here. I see tab as a tool like a hammer to drive a nail, and thought thats what its their for, a tool of many. I also really enjoy listening to tunes and digging to find the notes, techniques etc myself on the fingerboard, its very satisfying, but sometimes a slow process.

I do wanna ask if people have been destroyed by tab, lives torn apart? As Steve has mentioned, Tab apparently has many productive uses from beginner to the most accomplished banjo pickers in the world it would seem.

Edited by - marcel on 11/05/2011 10:49:31