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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: the fine line has been crossed by the fed gov...gibson


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.

horseman - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:39:58



this issue affects the 55k of the bho & every american. opinions do matter. it is what we do because we value the right to express them.  


yopasjim - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:44:29



Totally lost....what is this about?


TheBanjoDoctor - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:49:26


I dont think he knows....Plus Bill rodgers (moderator) had a post earlier saying something about how these things shouldn't be said anymore its really none of our business. and why you posted this twice is beyond me...

I say let it go and let Gibson take care of it. this has happened to them before and it was taken care of. its not your business let it go.

I just think we shouldn't be so worried about this. Like i said its not our business, and talking about like this doesn't fix ANYTHING.

horseman - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:52:24



sorry  about that . i was addressing the fed raid of the gibson factories. a topic was locked because we were too political w/our comments. seems like a time to voice concern as to the direction of the powers that be. any forum seems apropo. just mho. k


TheBanjoDoctor - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:58:02


I can understand that. i just think that we should let gibson do this thing on their own. they are the like one of the biggest musical companys on the planet. i dont think something over wood will stop them haha. sorry if i came off rude. if i did i apologize sincerely.

I just feel bad for gibson. not a big gibson fan. but i still feel sorry that they have to go through crap like this. but every company from time to time has there problems i suppose.

banjostan - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:59:48


horseman you will learn in time. their are some people that will cry and wine about anything. but you will get use to it.

horseman - Posted - 08/26/2011:  20:09:21



thanks for your reply, doc. no offense taken; no apology necessary. yes it is gibson's problem. but... a harbinger of the future of gov control of our daily lives.  "ce' la vie" say the old folks. i have to differ w/you over your statement that gibson is the ...largest on the planet, dollars to donuts it is RECORDING KING! ;>) 



(double posts are a result of an itchy trigger finger)


jbalch - Posted - 08/26/2011:  20:18:25



This thread is still open (for now)...see below:



banjohangout.org/topic/214289/#2712667



 



 



 


desert rose - Posted - 08/27/2011:  03:38:45



Sorry but if Gibson did half of what they are suspected of doing they deserve everything and more



Id suggest doing some serious studying of the details before feeling sorry for these guys. This started over a year ago and every step that progresses looks more and more like Gibson is not the sorry victim, but they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar



As I said months ago, let the case progress, its in good fair hands



 



Scott


justryin2play - Posted - 08/27/2011:  03:54:54



I'm pretty certain there's more than a few folks who are very happy with Gibson's woes.


BanjoLink - Posted - 08/27/2011:  06:29:18



quote:


Originally posted by TheBanjoDoctor




I dont think he knows....Plus Bill rodgers (moderator) had a post earlier saying something about how these things shouldn't be said anymore its really none of our business. and why you posted this twice is beyond me...



I say let it go and let Gibson take care of it. this has happened to them before and it was taken care of. its not your business let it go.



I just think we shouldn't be so worried about this. Like i said its not our business, and talking about like this doesn't fix ANYTHING.






 Darn right it is our business  -  and Bill Rodgers did not say that it wasn't our business  -  that it was getting too political and that is against forum rules!  If I know Bill, he would think it was entirely appropriate to discuss the matter, intelligently and with all of the facts in hand, but not on this forum!


Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 08/27/2011:  06:56:42



Why is it that all the best musical instrument ingredients are illegal?  Tortoise shell, Madagascar ebony, pre-EPA heads....and no one wants to outlaw stuff that sounds and looks bad?  It's only the good stuff that is illegal.


steve davis - Posted - 08/27/2011:  07:45:40


There are lots of great alternatives to those materials these days.
I've been making a lot of banjo bridges with purpleheart tops instead of ebony.

There are very good reasons to not allow ivory,tortoise shell or overcut trees into the market.
Give 'em a chance to grow back from over use.

I like the tone I'm getting from my new head.
A lot of the hype about that stuff sounding better is just that...hype.

Granada90 - Posted - 08/27/2011:  08:12:24



quote:


Originally posted by steve davis




There are lots of great alternatives to those materials these days.

I've been making a lot of banjo bridges with purpleheart tops instead of ebony.



There are very good reasons to not allow ivory,tortoise shell or overcut trees into the market.

Give 'em a chance to grow back from over use.



I like the tone I'm getting from my new head.

A lot of the hype about that stuff sounding better is just that...hype.






The Blue Chip picks are an excellent alternative to tortoise, in fact, better! IMO.



I can't say the same about bridges having used different kinds of maple that are not of the 3 used for musical purposes, according to Snuffy Smith.



Question for Steve, do you think the purple heart would make an alternative for an ebony fingerboard?


Mike Casey - Posted - 08/27/2011:  08:13:09


If you don't like what is going on write you congressman and senators. They are the ones who can actually do something about it. The closer to an election you get the more likely you will get a positive response.

steve davis - Posted - 08/27/2011:  08:19:05


I would think it would make a fine fingerboard,Brent.I think the color would be spectacular with gold plated hardware and abalone inlays.

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 08/27/2011:  09:52:25


quote:
Originally posted by desert rose


Sorry but if Gibson did half of what they are suspected of doing they deserve everything and more



Id suggest doing some serious studying of the details before feeling sorry for these guys. This started over a year ago and every step that progresses looks more and more like Gibson is not the sorry victim, but they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar



As I said months ago, let the case progress, its in good fair hands



 



+1


Scott




Granada90 - Posted - 08/27/2011:  10:31:30



quote:


Originally posted by steve davis




I would think it would make a fine fingerboard,Brent.I think the color would be spectacular with gold plated hardware and abalone inlays.






That sounds very interesting Steve.......I'm curious! Is it about equal in hardness as the Purple Heart? I really like ebony over rosewood, sound wise.


jbalch - Posted - 08/27/2011:  11:05:11



Below is a link to an interesting write up from Furniture today....dated Aug 12, 2010.  It has a little more detail about the initial complaint against Gibson.



furnituretoday.com/blog/The_Wr..._Raid.php



Here is more:  hfbusiness.com/article/doj-say...p-ebony/1



Edited by - jbalch on 08/27/2011 11:11:43

horseman - Posted - 08/27/2011:  12:06:25



the links posted by jbalch are a good read. just might temper some of the criticism of the us gov in the gibson case


TB-4 Guy - Posted - 08/27/2011:  12:17:46



There is significance to the Gibson raid for anyone who owns nice banjos, guitars and mandolins, especially if they travel with their instruments out of the U.S. The Lacey act is part of what is causing Gibson so much trouble right now. It prohibits "importation" of illegal woods from outside the U.S. or purchase instruments from foreign countries. Unless there is an accompanying declaration showing that the wood was acquired legally, you may be in trouble. Apparently Gibson lacked the proper declarations from their supplier and thus they were raided and the wood confiscated. It's possible that they may also be fined.



It makes me wonder. What it we leave the country, say with our nice banjo, say one with an ebony fingerboard and a mahogany body and neck or perhaps a vintage guitar with ebony fingerboard, Brazilian Rosewood body, ivory nut and saddle and a mahogany neck?  Are we then importing wood and ivory when we return from the trip? Worse yet, what if we forget to file a Lacey declaration prior to our trip and our instrument is confiscated?



Or, what if we purchase a vintage banjo, say from the UK, Gerrnany, France or some other European area and the seller fails to comply with our laws as to declarations? Do we lose the instrument and our money as well? Can we also be fined?



These are excellent questions and I fear that the answer is yes to those scenarios. That's why this thread is on point to those of us who own vintage guitars, banjos and mandolins, a class of which I happen to be a member.



I'm not certain that I could prove the age and source of the materials in my instruments. Sure, I have the serial numbers. That won't mean much to someone who doesn't know what they represent. Guess I'd better not travel much with them.



I don't like the idea of losing one of my instruments to some government yokel, do you? Does anyone? I can't tell you what I really think about this in public, other than to say that it makes my skin crawl. angry



aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/la...dex.shtml



Edited by - TB-4 Guy on 08/27/2011 12:21:06

gottasmilealot - Posted - 08/27/2011:  20:14:47



The rules are there for everyone to follow.  Gibson has been raided in the past; one would think that they'd have everything in order by now.  If everything is in order, then they have nothing to worry about.


NYCJazz - Posted - 08/27/2011:  20:49:24



quote:


Originally posted by steve davis




There are lots of great alternatives to those materials these days.

I've been making a lot of banjo bridges with purpleheart tops instead of ebony.



There are very good reasons to not allow ivory,tortoise shell or overcut trees into the market.

Give 'em a chance to grow back from over use.



I like the tone I'm getting from my new head.

A lot of the hype about that stuff sounding better is just that...hype.






Well put, Steve. I agree 100%



Those Blue Chip picks are fantastic, BTW. My teacher, Cynthia Sayer, is an enthusiastic user.



evil


haildixon - Posted - 08/27/2011:  23:02:00



These threads keep popping up like whackamoles. The BHO seems to be lacking in a good discussion of alternative and sustainable woods and resources - maybe this can jump start one.


BANJO TONY - Posted - 08/28/2011:  03:47:56


no no we can't talk Bad about our goverment it's not allowed & they may be reading this,HA,HA !.please come & get me & then they can pay for my health care. and lets talk more about legal tone woods.

stanger - Posted - 08/28/2011:  08:08:29


My only gripe is the slowness of the legal action. Gibson's first wood seizure happened in 2009, and 3 years is more than enough for the Govt. agency to have a full case prepared and ready to go to court.
Gibson says they are ready, and a court date should be set right now.
regards,
stanger

Plunkey - Posted - 08/28/2011:  10:26:58



Politics - from Greek πολιτικός, "of, for, or relating to citizens"



I'm in favor of being a citizen. But I guess there are some things I shouldn't be allowed to say.



Edited by - Plunkey on 08/28/2011 10:28:15

Gymbal31 - Posted - 08/28/2011:  19:39:44



quote:


Originally posted by Plunkey




Politics - from Greek πολιτικός, "of, for, or relating to citizens"



I'm in favor of being a citizen. But I guess there are some things I shouldn't be allowed to say.






I don't know where you got your definition from.  I'm sure it's one definition.  But the first ones I got when I Googled "politics definition" were all different wordings of:  "the art or science of government".



 



And to all those complaining about the threads being locked and deleted:



 



I think Eric and The Moderators do a great job running the Hangouts.  This is a banjo forum.  If you want to argue over politics, go post on Political Hangout.  the Mods have let other controversial threads run their course without closing them down, so if they thought something needed to be stopped, then I'll trust their judgment.  The posting rules haven't changed in the last two or three days.  You knew the rules when you joined. 



 



For me, personally, I come here for banjo talk.  For complaints, I go to Old Ladies b****ing Hangout.



 


NYCJazz - Posted - 08/28/2011:  20:17:33



What does Gibson have to do with banjos these days, anyway?



evil


Plunkey - Posted - 08/28/2011:  20:30:50



quote:


Originally posted by Gymbal31




quote:


Originally posted by Plunkey





Politics - from Greek πολιτικός, "of, for, or relating to citizens"



I'm in favor of being a citizen. But I guess there are some things I shouldn't be allowed to say.






I don't know where you got your definition from.  I'm sure it's one definition.  But the first ones I got when I Googled "politics definition" were all different wordings of:  "the art or science of government".



 



 



 


True enough, the "art or science of government" has little to do with the needs or wishes of people as much as much as it does to the needs or wishes of corporations anymore. And I don't don't know anything about the facts or laws in this particular case. But I don't intend to go quietly into that good night as the proverbial "slowly boiling frog" and hand over my banjo to a meter maid. 




 



Edited by - Plunkey on 08/28/2011 20:37:19

Plunkey - Posted - 08/28/2011:  20:45:43



quote:


Originally posted by Plunkey




quote:


Originally posted by Gymbal31





quote:


Originally posted by Plunkey





Politics - from Greek πολιτικός, "of, for, or relating to citizens"



I'm in favor of being a citizen. But I guess there are some things I shouldn't be allowed to say.






I don't know where you got your definition from.  I'm sure it's one definition.  But the first ones I got when I Googled "politics definition" were all different wordings of:  "the art or science of government".



 



 



 


True enough, the "art or science of government" has little to do with the needs or wishes of people as much as it does to the needs or wishes of corporations anymore. And I don't know anything about the facts or laws in this particular case. But I don't intend to go quietly into that good night as the proverbial "slowly boiling frog" and hand over my banjo to a meter maid. 




 






 


Cleitus - Posted - 08/29/2011:  03:09:50


My suggestion is politeness, but firmness at Customs etc. when taking an instrument out or bringing in - after all if you can afford to travel you probably also have an attorny or lawyer on tap or accessible. Customs must do it all according to the law and under regulations, ask to see them/under what regulation etc they are requiring this information or proof and NEVER sign anything out of the ordinary without calling your lawyer first. One thought - If they doubt the age of something, offer to have it radiocarbon dated, BUT explain (put it also in writing there and then!) you expect them to reimburse you if you are proven correct. One question for the knowledgeble - is this Lacey declaration area a presumption of innocence (ie they have to prove you guilty) or presumption of guilt (you have to prove you are not guilty) area? For example filing tax returns law effectively says you have to show you've done it ie presumption of guilt.

Cleitus - Posted - 08/29/2011:  03:12:38


Mind you the last time I was visiting the US (about 2 years ago) all the Customs etc were worried about was if I was going to commit a crime of 'moral turpitude' and feeling the insides of the socks packed in my luggage. I suppose whatever rings your bells eH? LOL.

Lou Linden - Posted - 08/30/2011:  07:36:16


I work in video (sound engineer) and we go out of the country a lot. (I often take a banjo along.) Before we leave we take all of our gear to U.S. Customs, show it to them, give them a list with serial numbers, etc. and they give us a document showing it was ours when we left the country. If anyone questions you about it on return you have the Customs Document. No problem. I think much of this fear and anxiety is not based on fact or experience, at least it doesn't comport with my experience.

A forum on sustainable materials would be very valuable. I also work in historic preservation, primarily in the maritime world and we have the same issues about scarcity of traditional materials. It's also an issue for historic buildings. I have about 100 window frames that can't be replaced because the wood from which they were made no longer exists. It's gone. Forever. That's what happens when we don't pay attention to our resources.

wrangler - Posted - 08/30/2011:  10:08:38



quote:


Originally posted by Gymbal31




quote:


Originally posted by Plunkey




Politics - from Greek πολιτικός, "of, for, or relating to citizens"



I'm in favor of being a citizen. But I guess there are some things I shouldn't be allowed to say.






I don't know where you got your definition from.  I'm sure it's one definition.  But the first ones I got when I Googled "politics definition" were all different wordings of:  "the art or science of government".



 



And to all those complaining about the threads being locked and deleted:



 



I think Eric and The Moderators do a great job running the Hangouts.  This is a banjo forum.  If you want to argue over politics, go post on Political Hangout.  the Mods have let other controversial threads run their course without closing them down, so if they thought something needed to be stopped, then I'll trust their judgment.  The posting rules haven't changed in the last two or three days.  You knew the rules when you joined. 



 



For me, personally, I come here for banjo talk.  For complaints, I go to Old Ladies b****ing Hangout.



 






 I also come to the Banjo Hangout for banjo talk.  Hey wait a minute, this is banjo talk.  As a citizen, I am an active participant in the political process of this country.  As a former combat Marine, I was an active participant in the political process.  I sometimes go to the "Old Ladies b****ing Hangout."  When politics infringes on my constitutional rights, I just can't seem to log into the "bend over and shut up hangout."


The Pope - Posted - 08/30/2011:  10:14:42



Lou, what kind of wood were you talking about in the window frames? Just curious...


mvolcjak - Posted - 08/30/2011:  13:22:27



 In the "Other Banjo-Related Topics" section", in the still active thread "Gibson Factories & Offices Raided by Feds", check out the "Duke of Pearls's" post on page 3.   This is the most comprehensive post I have seen covering what has actually happened with Gibson and the changes to the Lacey Act that allowed these raids to occur.



Take it Easy ... MarK



 



 


o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 08/31/2011:  06:48:44



all this over some wood? 


Lou Linden - Posted - 08/31/2011:  07:38:44



quote:


Originally posted by The Pope




Lou, what kind of wood were you talking about in the window frames? Just curious...






There's a mix.  I manage the building I live in, part of the Crown Cork & Seal Factory, c. 1898, which has literally hundreds of windows.  The majority of the window frames as best I can tell are old growth northern white pine, quarter sawn.  I have identified some old growth cypress as well (I think) but I don't know if that is original historic fabric or later replacement sometime in the 20th century.  Some of these species still exist but not in commercial quantities nor in the same quality as old growth timber.  It is a testament to the quality of the old wood that many frames have survived despite not being painted since sometime in the Eisenhower administration. 



 



It seems a major tenet of human nature not to value things until they're all gone.  If my grandfather, the forester, had been managing the timber resources with an eye to 100 years in the future we would still have some of this high value material but he didn't.  He helped rape Nova Scotia for the fast buck and let the devil take the hindmost.  Human greed trumps almost everything which is why we have to have to make efforts as a society to foster our resources.  It appears to me that the enforcement of the Lacy Act in this case is an effort to make it possible for our children and/or (great) grandchildren to have ebony fret boards.  If that means that we have to make the ultimate sacrifice and not have nice, new ebony fret boards ourselves, well, I guess that's called being a grown-up.  Is it a perfect effort?  Probably not; few things human beings do are perfect (I'm thinking of my 3-2 pull-off here) but I don't see any reason to impute bad motives to the folks who are trying to do it.  Just my opinion.




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