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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Harmonization of eight-note (bebop) scale [title changed]


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Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/17/2010:  14:07:45


I came across the article jazzguitarlife.com/jazz-guitar...chniques/ where is discussed the harmonisation of eight-note "bebop" scales by regular alternation between "tonic" chord [e.g. Gm7 in case of aeolian bebop scale] on chord-note and "dominant" (actually diminished) chord [e.g. D7b9, actually F#dim] on non-chord note.

Similar approach in the key of C is shown in the sample pages 49-50 of Jason Lyon's book A Compendium of Jazz Piano Voicings at opus28.co.uk/voicingssample.pdf

The problem is that there are used 4-note chords but we banjo players do use three fingers (T, I, M). Did anybody here work out (and practically use) these harmonised bebop scales in three-note partial chord pinches? That means alternation of e.g. partial Gm7 chord and partial F#dim chord?

Thanks
Mirek


Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/04/2011 23:47:19

claybanjo - Posted - 12/17/2010:  16:52:39


Well that flew right over my head but sure would like to know what it's all about, I like bebop .
.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/18/2010:  06:15:58


that's a cool lesson Mirek ... I'm digesting it a little .

I'm reading your question as "do you use 3 note harmonizations like this?" on the banjo.

Yes I do ... but I'm learning from that WM lesson.

not an example of the tension - resolve aspect of this lesson, but here's an example of how I use three notes to harmonize a melodic idea.


Edited by - pearcemusic on 12/18/2010 06:17:40

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/18/2010:  07:13:53


I use that kind of voicings expecially on tenor both with three and four strings but I don't use fingerpicks, when I do similar things on five string I use the thumb pick as a plectrum on down strokes and the index on up strokes....

coelhoe - Posted - 12/18/2010:  08:12:52


Someplace on the 'net there is website for FreddyGreen's jazz guitar three-note voicings.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/18/2010:  15:12:36


Doub, this could be the harmonisation of C major bebop scale played with TIM pinches:

Every "t" (abbrev. from "tonic" chord) is partial voicing of C6, every "o" is partial voicing of Bdim.


  o  t  o  t  o  t  o  t  o  t  o
D----------------------------------
B-0--1--3--5--6--8--9-10-12-13-15--
G-1--2--4--5--7--9-10-12-13-14-16-etc.
D-3--5--6--7--9-10-12-14-15-17-18--
g----------------------------------

or

  o  t  o  t  o  t  o  t  o  t  o
D-------0--2--3--5--6--7--9-10-12--
B-0--1--0--1--3--5--6--8--9-10-12--
G-1--2--1--2--4--5--7--9-10-12-13-etc.
D-3--5-----------------------------
g----------------------------------
These partial voicings are the narrow ones - of course one can prefer wider voicings.

Mirek
banjosessions.com/?p=130


Edited by - Mirek Patek on 12/18/2010 23:13:44

Mick S - Posted - 12/20/2010:  05:11:49


I spent some time with that page and plan on spending more. It's good information, and like he mentions, I can hear that's a technique that jazz arrangers use. It also sounds very much like Wes. When I practice those things I always practice them as 4 string shapes. I may only use 3 of the strings, or I'll use a roll that covers all four or something. But I'd personally rather get as much of the picture as possible so I can use any string grouping I wish. But If you're only going to work on 3 notes for the voicings, most jazz players agree that If you're gonna leave something out, it should be the root or the 5th, because either the bass will have that covered, or our ear will naturally fill that in. Better to have the color tones than the vanilla ones in instances such as this.
Thanks for sharing that.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/20/2010:  08:09:05


quote:
Originally posted by Mick S
When I practice those things I always practice them as 4 string shapes. I may only use 3 of the strings, or I'll use a roll that covers all four or something. But I'd personally rather get as much of the picture as possible so I can use any string grouping I wish.
I would suggest to practice not only 4 string shapes, but also 3 string partial shapes. While not loosing the big picture of 4 string shapes, to catch the 3 string shapes might be easier and quicker to play.

It reminds me the advice I am reading about up-the-neck Scruggs stuff: many times it is enough if just the doublestop is held with the left hand; of course it helps when one knows that he actually plays part of F-shape, D-shape or barre.

quote:
Originally posted by Mick S
But If you're only going to work on 3 notes for the voicings, most jazz players agree that If you're gonna leave something out, it should be the root or the 5th, because either the bass will have that covered, or our ear will naturally fill that in. Better to have the color tones than the vanilla ones in instances such as this.
I would definitely agree in case of chords which sound for longer period of time. In case of quick passing chords I see mainly the parallel motion of voices (as used in the arrangers' practice).

To keep mainly the color tones (and to omit mainly vanilla ones) would require the switches between narrow and wide voicings - this might be also interesting to explore.

Thanks
Mirek

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/20/2010:  09:50:46


It's also nice to put somewhere some contrary motion, for example
-----------1--3--5-
-0--1--3--1--3--4-
-1--2--4--2--1--2-etc
-3--1--3-----------
--------------------

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/21/2010:  01:35:57


quote:
Originally posted by banjopaolo

It's also nice to put somewhere some contrary motion, for example
----------1--3--5-
-0--1--3--1--3--4-
-1--2--4--2--1--2-etc
-3--1--3----------
------------------

Yes, that is great example - you call it "putting contrary motion", I call it "switching between narrow and wide voicing".

I see there are used partial Cm6 and Bdim voicings. The 1st and 4th chords are narrow voicings. The remaining chord voicings are little wider, as the lower voice (marked in red) is switched from narrow voicing to the next lower chord tone.

This created contrary motion as mentioned by Paolo AND left the vanilla notes (root or 5th) out as suggested by Mick. In the second chord (partial Cm6) there is Eb instead of G. In the sixth chord (also partial Cm6) there is A instead of C.

Thanks
Mirek

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/21/2010:  05:21:54


quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic

not an example of the tension - resolve aspect of this lesson, but here's an example of how I use three notes to harmonize a melodic idea.
"3, 6, 9 of each mode" - I see this makes parallel quartal chords.
I am putting quartal harmony to the queue: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartal_...l_harmony
Worth to stand-alone thread. I have found just this one in the archive: banjohangout.org/archive/92633

Mirek

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/21/2010:  09:07:10


quartal chords are very used in modal jazz (the piano voicings Bill Evans used on Miles's So What is a classic exemple beside McCoy Tiner playing with Coltrane) and are very good sounding and easy to play on banjo....
for example on a C dorian

d---------5--7--8--10--12--13-
b--4--6--3--4--6--8----10--11-
g--3--5--2--3--5--7----8---10-
d--3--5--------------------------
g---------------------------------

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/21/2010:  09:29:47


I think stacked 4ths are a nice way to be "ambiguous" in your harmonized melodies.
The stacks don't draw your ear to a key center as strongly, so you can get away with a lot when you use them.

Paulo's example is great and works over anything in Bb major ... Cdor as stated, of course

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/22/2010:  03:03:16


Back to sixth-diminished harmonisation - through the forum forums.allaboutjazz.com/showth...p?t=43238 I came to the name of Barry Harris.
barryharris.com/scale_reminder.htm
barryharris.com/cgi-bin/jt.cgi
jazzworkshops.com/jw-productio...hop-video (see table of contents, chapter 3)
jazzworkshops.com/jw-productio...eo-part-2 (see table of contents, chapter 3)

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/22/2010:  14:57:55


Barry Harris, of course, is one of the most influential and respected master of bebop theory.
But I still think that Bird, Dizzy, and Bud Powell never knew anything about the 'bebop' scale, just played the notes they felt... like Thelonious, Mingus, Ornette, Coltrane and all the others giants of jazz!
Theory comes after creation, and often tends to create a standard... sometime it can be dangerous!
I don't know if you understand what I mean: it's difficult for me in English!!!!
best
paolo

banjotom2 - Posted - 12/23/2010:  02:19:23


From Wikipedia...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebop_scale


Fun stuff...

Putting me right to sleeeeeeeeeeeeee....

Mirek Patek - Posted - 12/23/2010:  03:51:48


Well, when I play three-note (partial) chord pinches, I certainly do not play "bebop". As a follow-up to the other thread ( banjohangout.org/topic/193513 ) I just want to explore what kind of chord-melody I can play with thumb, index and middle finger on my banjo.

Starting from the common harmonisation of seven-tone scales (major, melodic minor etc.) which has been discussed many times on BHO, I found the link (in my first post) about harmonisation based on eight-note scale. OK, it is called bebop scale, but that does not mean I am interested in or aspire to play bebop style (I do not have definition for this term, anyway).

I want to play diatonic melody (e.g. in major scale) which may be harmonised
a) with diatonic triads as usual
b) with partial voicing of diatonic seventh chords
c) with non-diatonic chords to make the sound more interesting - and here the "sixth-diminished" Wes Montgomery approach delivers the inspiration

So - I do not play bebop, do not know nearly anything about bebop, do not listen (systematically) the records of the famous names mentioned by Paolo. I am way more down to "diatonic" earth, just wanted to use some weird harmonic flavor. I should have made this disclaimer when I first used the term "bebop".

Mirek

P.S. Christmas greeting to Italy from Menarini (headquartered in Firenze) employee in Prague!

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/24/2010:  16:20:45


ok Mirek
greetings from italy to all of you in Prague, I've been only once in your wonderful city in '91 or 92, I'm sure a lot has chenged from that time but I still have that place in my hart... then I play an Amistar tenor guitar that I think comes not far from you.
buon natale
paolo

chuckk - Posted - 01/10/2011:  17:43:54


I don't have anything to add, but thanks for sharing, Mirek.

Pink Eye - Posted - 01/12/2011:  12:11:25


Hi there,

So the question is how to use the jazz harmonies on the banjo? If that is correct:

When a basic chord is played, the notes are the I III V VII of a scale that corresponds to that chord. So, C7 (C7), for example has C E G Bb. Ok, now we can panic a little because a typical banjo player uses three fingers, but there are four notes. But, there is a solution in that the importance of the notes of the chord is III & VII > I > V. Thus, if we want to imply a C7 chord, we only need to play a E and Bb. That is only two notes! We can add the root in if we want, or leave it out to give space for other instruments.

Now, lets say we have a C7#5 chord. The chord tones are C E G# Bb. Again, the important ones are the III and VII, but now the altered note (G#) is as important/more important than the root depending on what you want. So if the banjo player was comping behind a soloist, he would want to play E G# Bb or C E Bb, or any inversions of them that work, depending on the situation.

Any questions, let me know. Try it and prove it to your self. It doesn't sounds as strong as the full chord, but it gets the job done and is used very often for comping with an ensemble where you don't want to get in the way too much.

If you catch something wrong in my post, let me know.

chuckk - Posted - 01/15/2011:  07:34:55


quote:
Originally posted by Pink Eye

So the question is how to use the jazz harmonies on the banjo? If that is correct:



The question was a little more specific than that. You should read the article and try the examples, they're very interesting.

Mirek, I've been playing with these bebop scales, and I like their sound. I learned about them in college, but wasn't very interested in jazz at the time.
Something I forgot to mention earlier is that dropping the 5th doesn't just work because another instrument is probably playing it, but also because it's already inherent in any note: the perfect 5th is the 3rd harmonic of any frequency, and it's relatively strong in the sound of the vibrating string, compared to the higher harmonics. So if the root is being played somewhere, the frequency of the 5th is actually already present in the vibrations. The same is true to a lesser extent of the major 3rd, which is the 5th harmonic, but leaving this out can change the chord a great deal.
So even with fast passing chords that aren't held any length of time, the 5th is a prime candidate for being left out.

-Chuckk

Pink Eye - Posted - 01/15/2011:  10:45:54


quote:
Originally posted by chuckk

quote:
Originally posted by Pink Eye

So the question is how to use the jazz harmonies on the banjo? If that is correct:



The question was a little more specific than that. You should read the article and try the examples, they're very interesting.

Mirek, I've been playing with these bebop scales, and I like their sound. I learned about them in college, but wasn't very interested in jazz at the time.
Something I forgot to mention earlier is that dropping the 5th doesn't just work because another instrument is probably playing it, but also because it's already inherent in any note: the perfect 5th is the 3rd harmonic of any frequency, and it's relatively strong in the sound of the vibrating string, compared to the higher harmonics. So if the root is being played somewhere, the frequency of the 5th is actually already present in the vibrations. The same is true to a lesser extent of the major 3rd, which is the 5th harmonic, but leaving this out can change the chord a great deal.
So even with fast passing chords that aren't held any length of time, the 5th is a prime candidate for being left out.

-Chuckk



Hi there. I did look at the examples in the .pdf, but I didn't go ahead and try them before I posted. I think my previous post, along with your explanation, provides the way for achieving the harmonization when limited to 3 notes. One would need to understand what Montgomery was doing first, and then apply the principles above.

The other option would be a strumming motion, or do what I do and put on an extra finger pick. If you don't want to do that, and only use three fingers like most, then my previous post's suggestion would be a good place to start.

Side note: I had not heard the reasoning behind why the 5th excluded so easily. Very interesting.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 01/26/2011:  05:40:25


Thanks for your replies.

Here is another interesting link about "Barry Harris" harmonization technique:
jazzguitarlessons.net/adding-i...itar.html

(Does not deal with the second part of the problem - selecting only three note partial chords for three-finger picker - but still very informative.)

Mirek

Edit: One more link: jazzworkshops.com/articles/evo...gs-part-i


Edited by - Mirek Patek on 01/26/2011 05:52:45

Mirek Patek - Posted - 01/27/2011:  06:55:58


WARNING - the charts linked below are not for 5-string banjo, but for my DGdg tenor banjo.

However, every other link might be of some use for 5-string banjo players as there are used the strings D, G, d (4th, 3rd, and 1st of 5-string banjo) so you can instantly play the partial chords with three finger pinches on your banjo. Anyway, I am posting the charts here as an inspiration for some 5-string banjo players (Doub?) so they can make the charts tailored for their instrument (using B string too and exploring also closer inversions of partial chords).

I have made the charts with separation of parallel three note voicings of C bebop major scale, alternating the partial chords C6 and Bdim.
Gdg strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg
DGd strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg

Here I have got inspiration from Example 19 of jazzworkshops.com/articles/evo...gs-part-i
so I shifted up one scalar note on the thinnest of three used strings. Another interesting partial chords are born.
Gdg strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg
DGd strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg

And all the above again for C bebop melodic minor scale - first the alternation of Cm6 and Bdim partial chords.
Gdg strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg
DGd strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg
Finally shifting up one scalar note on the thinnest of three used strings.
Gdg strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg
DGd strings: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...12011.jpg

Mirek

Rysher - Posted - 01/29/2011:  23:53:34


These bebop scales create an 8 note scale by adding 1 chromatic passing note to the 7 note scales derived from major and minor scale harmony. This creates a congruency with 4/4 time because 7 is not dividable by 4 but 8 is. It's just math. There are names for these different scales but in essence you add 1 chromatic note to any scale based on 7 to get this congruity. Our ears here this stuff, it is natural.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/03/2011:  20:46:33


Heavy stuff, to be sure. Let's go back to Wes. Thanks Mirek and Doub for the samples. Harmony is not an easy subject!

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/03/2011:  20:50:34


I'm working on my country blues guitar playing, writing another banjo book for Mel about Celtic jigs and reels, but why not subscribe to this tread?

Now, to find that subscribe button ... still haven't found it!

Okay, got it below. Phew, fingerbusters! LOL


Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/03/2011 20:52:52

Rysher - Posted - 02/04/2011:  22:44:13


I have studied Wes and Jazz and Classical guitar for years and the position system in both mean that stretches in chords beyond 4 frets are not needed and represent poor technique. Wes had great guitar skills and figured this one on his own and did not stretch beyond 4 frets in his voicings. (Becuase we have 4 fingers) Beware of the false jazz guitar genius and stretchy hard chords, it is an act.
Wes loved and used easy voicings (no stretches) which is why he is so imitated.

Pick out the 3rd and 7th of each chord in a jazz tune as they go by. The 3rd and 7th are enough information to identify any jazz chord in its most stripped down nature. Wes heard and used this reality though may not have been able to put it in formal terms. CG for A-7 to CF# for D7 and BF# for Gmajor7. Try inverting the diad. Look no stretches, and you can easily get any other note you might want to add. Jim Hall does this very regularly, and represents the most concise way to get through jazz changes, and the bases for Wes's ear based approach. It is just a start though because adding the third note and substitutions is a little more tricky requiring knowledge of tensions and altered notes from chord function, or a good ear like Wes.
Lastly, tune you banjo like a guitar to play jazz and get those nice Wes voicings.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/04/2011:  23:45:05


Rysher, thanks for your reply, but I feel we are talking apples and oranges - both fruits are tasteful, definitely. I see it is probably caused by the title I put to this thread (originally Wes Montgomery’s Harmonization Techniques) which is too broad, because Wes Montgomery was of course not limited to one harmonic "formula". You know this better than me as I cannot claim that I have studied Wes for years.

I will try to be more specific, including the change of thread title. The point is that while I am familiar with the harmonization of seven note scale (to be honest: the major scale, I cannot use the word familiar in case of melodic minor yet) - you know, the Imaj7, IIm7, IIIm7, IVmaj7 etc. - I see that the harmonisation of eight note scale brings new sounds.

So that is first part of my interest here - what kind of chords/sounds can be obtained by parallel motion of voices across the eight note scale. E.g. C6, Ddim, C6/E, Fdim, C6/G, Abdim, C6/A [Am7], Bdim in case of C bebop major scale. Or - weird chords if the starting point for parallel motion is not C6, but Cmaj7 - here is the quote from Example 19 referred in my post 1/27/2011 3:55:58 PM; it is related to Charts 3-4 and 7-8 of my post:
Who says you have to confine a voicing to either the 6th chord or the diminished 7th chord of the 6 diminished scale? You can borrow notes from one to use with the other if it creates a sound that intrigues you. Here, we've replaced the 6th of the tonic minor 6th chord with the major 7th. You're likely to hear sounds you haven't heard before as you take this voicing up the scale. Try the voicings on the lower staff as well.

Second part is related to number of my picking fingers (three = TIM). That is why I am exploring three-note partial chords of the above ones.

I am not discussing the horizontal point of view of eight note scale you have mentioned in 1/30/2011 8:53:34 AM (that all the chord notes could be on the beat thanks to inserting the passing note). And I am not exploring the 3+7+tension approach you describe recently. Again - great oranges (I am also using 3+7 on my DG strings, + 9 or 13 tension(s) on thinner strings), but not a subject here.

Thanks for your comments and my apology for being too broad in the original thread title (yes, it is more catchy if it contains name calling).

Mirek

P.S. There are many great charts of harmonising seven note scales on 5-string banjo, but I do not know about similar chart for harmonising eight note scale... Doub, are you there?



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