RUBY2 - Posted - 03/18/2010:  05:46:30

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Hi all

I have just noticed that I may be picking up a bad habit and just want to clarify it before I try to remedy it.

When I am using the violin grip, up near the peghead I have noticed that. f ex if I put my first finger on the 1st string 2nd fret that my palm is facing outwards towards what would be the audience LOL!

Should I be placing my hand further up to the peghead so there is more room to fret the string?

I have noticed that as I play. I do have the habit of the neck going steadily lower and more horizontal.

My left arm elbow also starts to come in closer to my side and I think both these things may be making this worse?

I don't use a strap, maybe this would help in keeping the banjo in the correct position?

With thanks

Richard

banjopaolo - Posted - 03/18/2010:  07:18:23

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what do you mean with violin grip?

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/18/2010:  07:31:54

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"Violin grip" is your left hand position on the neck... keeping your palm away from the back of the neck:



Fiddle players traditionally keep the palm up next to the neck, which the violin crowd dubs "lazy wrist".

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/18/2010:  07:54:52

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Cheers for that Polle

I like the idea of practicing some right hand only and having the left arm away from the banjo. I will put in some practice on that.

I do try to keep my mind on not resting the banjo on my hand, but I think I must get a tired lazy left arm and as I play my arm lovers down and brings the neck with it LOL.

Thanks for clarifying the hand/elbow positioning.

What would I do without this site :-/

Ta

Richard

Dogface - Posted - 03/18/2010:  07:56:50

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Groan...here we go again :( I don't care whatcha' say but with that grip your pinkie and ring finger, to a lesser extent, are far away from the fretboard. McNeil teaches to keep your palm/knuckles parallel to the neck, AND your thumb pad on the back of the neck...not wrapped. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it :)

Mark

Compass56 - Posted - 03/18/2010:  09:23:21

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If you like it, you should do it. Make it work. There are no rules.

Tony

banjopaolo - Posted - 03/18/2010:  11:02:42

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There is always something new to learn!!
well, as some of you know I'm a conservatory graduated viola and violin player (banjos are my hobby, bows are my work!!) but I never heard about violin grip on banjo, and I really don't know if I use it when I play tenor!!!
I'll check it out...
maybe I can try the banjo grip on violin?
best

Polle
from time to time I delete my videos, if you go to my homepage here on the hangout, near my picture you can see the video currently 'on air'

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Edited by - banjopaolo on 03/18/2010 14:26:49

Dogface - Posted - 03/18/2010:  11:39:24

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I think I'll do it my way (McNeil's way) for two reasons. First, that's the way I was taught and it works...Second, because Polle doesn't like it LOL

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/18/2010:  11:47:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by Compass56

If you like it, you should do it. Make it work. There are no rules.

Tony

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I agree with you, Tony.

Eddy Davis has some very unorthodox technique on the tenor banjo, especially in his chord fingerings, but they seem to work for him. I dare ANYONE to try and "correct" him!

The "violin grip", which is "correct" in the classical world is not done in the world of fiddling, and vice-versa, even though it's on the same instrument.

No one who calls themselves an anarchist should be handing out rules. Suggestions, yes, but not rules. Remember, music is art, and rules in art only stifle creativity!

mikeyes - Posted - 03/18/2010:  12:03:31

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These issues of technique seem to follow the same pattern time after time.

First is the question of how should I do it? Followed by several persons chiming in each with a definitive answer, often championing more than one way to do it. Then followed by someone who states that "there are no rules." Followed by someone who advocates the most popular way to do it illustrated by the admonition that various master level players do it this way.

Logically there should be an answer to a simple question such as "What is the proper technique?" but invariably no such answer seems to pop up. I sometimes wonder if the wrong question is asked.

If you look at how elite level performers act, you often see variation. In the case of banjo players variation in right and left hand grip and, of course, stylistic variation. What you see in common is efficiency, consistency, stylistic mastery, and confidence. None of this occurs overnight, even in the most talented beginners.

It is often wise to look at what the majority of elite level players do and what is taught as the basic technique. Technique in any performance art is usually a distillation of observing the greats and tincture of time. Techniques change over time but valuable parts of technique usually survive both in the individual and the teaching literature.

Polle is correct in that the vast majority of master banjo players don't use the guitar method that Dogface likes. It's probably easier and more relaxed to play with the violin grip. But Dogface's persistence brings up a good point. You dance with the partner you brought to the ball.

Basic technique has the qualities of being obvious and (usually) logical within its own system. If you make a mistake, you know what it is and can correct it. A basic technique, be it guitar or violin grip, has a certain logic that will allow you to become more efficient as time goes on. The fact that a basic technique may not be the most efficient is not as important as the predictability of the technique. If you have "no rules" then you have no way of analyzing your mistakes or seeing how you can improve.

McNeil's method may have fallen out of favor, maybe for very good reasons, but it does give a good base for the learner. Once a base is fully formed, a musician can then start to deviate from that base when circumstances demand it. This is the way elite level players develop in the performance arts and sports. They have a solid base and use it as the benchmark for their improvement. Very commonly they have to go back to the basics as they may have gone down a blind alley, but because they have a base to fall back on, they can continue to get better instead of relying on some random action in order to improve.

Mike Keyes

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/18/2010:  15:37:53

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Many thanks to everyone for your input.

Looks like I have opened a right can of worms :-/

I think as Polle advised me in the past, it may be best especially at my level to practice both the guitar and violin grip so I have the basic style instilled as well as the violin grip.


I think my main problem is wanting it all to come
good straight away. Unfortunatly my skill falls well short of my perfectionistic )is that a word) nature. As most of you who have helped me have said in the past. It takes time for your subconcious to learn to play the banjo. I need more patience. LOL

Rome wasn't built in one day!

Thanks again

Richard

Compass56 - Posted - 03/18/2010:  17:37:41

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Richard, don't get discouraged. You probably sound better than you think you sound. My grandfather told me something when I was a little kid that really stuck with me. He said, "Don't criticize a peach for not being a pear." In other words, deal with something (like your playing) on its own terms, not in terms of what it's not. Too many of us focus on what we're lacking in terms of playing like Buddy Wachter or Cynthia or Eddy Davis or Don Vappie or whomever. Instead, just be the best Richard that you can be. One thing we tend to forget is that none of those pros can play like you either. They don't have your family history or education or religious/philosophical stance(s) or any of the things that make you the person (and by extension, the banjoist) that you are. We're all wonderfully different from one another. Celebrate those differences.

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/19/2010:  00:42:17

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Many Thanks for that Tony.
Wise words indeed.
I like the peach/pear story. I will try to think of that when I get wound up with my progress.
Cheers
Richard

rudykizuty - Posted - 03/20/2010:  07:03:15

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When Mike pointed out that McNeil's method may have fallen out of favor, it sparked a thought. The tutorials currently available on the market that I know of are the Mel Bay, Harry Reser and Chas. McNeil methods. These have been around for some time and have a bit of hair on them.

But has any moden master developed a Jazz style TB tutorial available for the masses? I know Phil Wilking has something available, but you have to contact him directly in order to obtain it. I don't see anything else that is widely available on the market.

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/20/2010:  08:52:47

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Cheers for that Anthony.

I am going to get that Phil Wilking tutor book when I get paid.

I found the mc Neil book on the internet, but I can't find it for sale at Amazon etc or banjo supply shops.

Cheers

Richard

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/22/2010:  07:13:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by rudykizuty



But has any moden master developed a Jazz style TB tutorial available for the masses? I know Phil Wilking has something available, but you have to contact him directly in order to obtain it. I don't see anything else that is widely available on the market.

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I think Tim Allan has some good tenor material out, and i've heard that Dave Frey is working on a tenor version of his "Ultimate Plectrum Banjo" book.

banjoman86 - Posted - 03/22/2010:  07:32:03

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richard---djangobooks.com has the mcneil system in e book format,


pete

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/22/2010:  10:06:20

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quote:

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Tim and Dave are indeed highly skilled professional banjo players and teachers - but they are neither banjo masters or decidedly jazz musicians, as somehow indicated/asked for by Anthony, I think.

Polle

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That may be true, but I think by "jazz style" he's talking about the era of traditional jazz music, not strictly improvisational banjo playing.

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/22/2010:  13:49:37

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Thanks for that fellas.
I forgot about Tim Allan. I will have a look again at his site.
Cheers
Richard

rudykizuty - Posted - 03/22/2010:  15:52:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by NYCJazz

quote:

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Tim and Dave are indeed highly skilled professional banjo players and teachers - but they are neither banjo masters or decidedly jazz musicians, as somehow indicated/asked for by Anthony, I think.

Polle

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That may be true, but I think by "jazz style" he's talking about the era of traditional jazz music, not strictly improvisational banjo playing.

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Nathan understands where I was coming from.

Master may have technically been a poor choice of wording on my part. But it needs to be understood from the perspective of where I am with banjo playing. I am purely an amateur player. Frankly, I don't even consider myself a musician in any way. I simply play banjo.

So from that perspective, when it comes to highly skilled professional players and teachers with the accomplishments of a Tim Allen or Dave Frey, yes I do consider them masters. Ones that I can certainly learn a lot from.

But that's just my own two cents from my own humble perspective.

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Edited by - rudykizuty on 03/22/2010 15:59:38

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/23/2010:  07:18:57

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I was doing the same thing as Polle... watching my hand position...

I came up with pretty similar pattern, with the differences mostly with a bit less "fiddle" grip, which I think is mostly due to the fact that I'm playing plectrum vs tenor. It was an interesting exercise!

The one "rule" that I totally agree with is to never support the banjo from the neck! You want total freedom over the fretboard. I always play with a short strap over my right shoulder (a la Earl Scruggs!) even when I'm sitting down.

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/23/2010:  12:13:03

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Hi Polle
Just a quick note to let you know I have been putting time and effort into both my violin grip technique and my banjo position and making sure that it stays put with no input from my left hand.
I have noticed a marked improvement already.
So a BIG thank you, as always.
A big thank you to everyone else with your help/support.
Cheers
Richard

catty - Posted - 03/23/2010:  15:30:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikeyes

Once a base is fully formed, a musician can then start to deviate from that base when circumstances demand it.

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I feel very fortunate that my first instruction on stringed instruments was classical guitar--which taught me strict form from the beginning. The classical approach has a codified system of "proper" technique: the thumb is kept in the midline of the back of the neck--wrist forward. The reason this is the standard form is because it is the most efficient; while it is uncomfortable to learn, it provides the hand foundation which optimizes the angle of the fingers upon the fingerboard. So, in a word, from the standoint of classical form, the "proper" left-hand thumb/wrist position optimizes finger angle and provides the greatest degree of facility.

I use this same left-hand classical guitar technique on all stringed instruments except fiddle, mandolin, and ukulele (it's about half and half with uke).

If you start with this position, especially on a guitar or instrument with wider fingerboard, transferring your left hand skills to other stringed instruments is pretty easy, as your hand and fingers are "automatically" in correct position. When I teach, I always start with "strict" form. Here's what it looks like on doublebass:

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Edited by - catty on 03/23/2010 16:35:49

RUBY2 - Posted - 03/24/2010:  06:09:47

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Hi Polle

Many thanks for your very kind/supportive comments.

It means a great deal to me to have you (and others, you know who you are) keeping me on track and being so concerned and eager to help me. I can't thank you enough.

I would have definatly put my banjo in the back of the cupboard to gather dust without your help LOL.

Some more skype lessons would be smashing. I think I need a faster computer too so I will have a look into this. Do you know if I need a certain speed/memory for us to benefit?

I have to admit. I have not got your parcel ready as yet. I need to twist my wifes arm to get it done. I will get her a nce bath run with some candles etc lol. Get myself some brownie points. LOL. Sorry for the delay.

Many thanks again

Richard

catty - Posted - 03/24/2010:  07:38:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

catty,

Respect!

But just for clearance - will it be possible for you posting a picture of the same doublebass player - now playing at the upper 40% of his fingerboard and still using the classic guitar grip - Iīve never seen this done - maybe I can afterwards provide some tips & tricks to my professional bass buddies.

Also for clearance - will it be possible for you posting some pictures of a male tenor banjo player - fingering a Dim-chord at f.ex. 4th respectively 10th fret - using the classic guitar grip - many of my "classic" students do still - after many years of playing - have great problems fingering this essential chord - maybe your pics will provide some help for them.

Kindly regards

Polle

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Even in classical guitar, of course the thumb must migrate from its position when necessary -- upper registers, extended technique, etc. -- when it is impossible to maintain "classical" form; this goes without saying -- we don't try to put square pegs into round holes. (Doublebass entails a completely different technique altogether in the upper registers.) But otherwise, it goes right back to its "optimal" position. There are exceptions to every rule -- but we're talking about fundamentals.

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Edited by - catty on 03/24/2010 07:57:29

catty - Posted - 03/24/2010:  08:02:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

catty,

quote:

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There are exceptions to every "rule"-- we are talking about fundamentals

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Nonsens - regarding many string instruments (as f.ex. 4-string banjos) weīre talking about exceptions so prominent, that they become rules themselves.

Itīs as simple as that - do f.ex. study the masters - they donīt follow any basic rule.

Polle

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I'm afraid your writing is not clear enough for me to understand what you're getting at. It sounds as if you're saying something very silly. Of course "masters" rely on fundamentals. It's what makes great players great players, great golfers great golfers, ad infinitum.

catty - Posted - 03/24/2010:  08:23:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

catty,

quote:

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Of course "masters" rely on fundamentals. It's what makes great players great players, great golfers great golfers, ad infinitum.

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Yes - but you were mentioning/high-lightening only one particular basic left hand technique as fundamental - the rest had to be exceptions - thatīs nonsens!

A skilled golf player will use many different clubs/techniques - a skilled 4-string banjo player will use many different left hand grips - all of these will be fundamentals - Basta!

Polle

PS!
Why donīt you proclaim yourself here at BHO?

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To reiterate:

Even in classical guitar, of course the thumb must migrate from its position when necessary -- upper registers, extended technique, etc. -- when it is impossible to maintain "classical" form; this goes without saying -- we don't try to put square pegs into round holes.

So, in a word, from the standoint of classical form, the "proper" left-hand thumb/wrist position optimizes finger angle and provides the greatest degree of facility.

Have a good day.

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Edited by - catty on 03/24/2010 08:30:07

catty - Posted - 03/24/2010:  08:39:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

catty,

Sorry - but youīve just now disqualified yourself from this thread/discussion - it seems, that your views and arguments are at the same level as for newbie players.

Sorry for my harsh words - come again - once you realize the status of the person(s), that youīre addressing. Next time - do your homework at first hand.

Kindly regards

Polle

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Is this guy for real?


Succinctly, if you are doing anything that does not optimize finger angle and provides the greatest degree of facility -- such as the guitarist in this vid:
youtube.com/watch?v=Ff1hSDnCw9c ...then, your technique is not optimal. This is axiomatic...(but Polle will probably disagree ).

Here is the more optimal left-hand technique: youtube.com/watch?v=d6ymRQF6bD...e=related

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Edited by - catty on 03/25/2010 09:22:52

catty - Posted - 03/24/2010:  10:54:45

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mikeyes

Once a base is fully formed, a musician can then start to deviate from that base when circumstances demand it.

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I began my contribution quoting from Mike, who is right on. My $.02 merely corroborates what Mike clearly stated on page one, but adding the theory of classical guitar technique, and the utility of such in playing other stringed instruments.

My guess is that, other than my wide application of classical form, except when, as Mike says--circumstances dictate otherwise (viz., unnecessary or otherwise undesireable)--and one's vehemence to establish one's self as an authority (which I understand Polle's provocative rhetoric to be about), we'd likely agree on the goal of technique: to facilitate the greatest capacity of playing with the greatest ease; ergo, the "cowboy" grip (or fiddle grip, as I guess it's known in the EU).

I don't know what Polle means by "proclamation" -- it seems as though he feels threatened that someone may have an expertise that he lacks. Don't worry Polle -- you can be the authority -- I'm not interested in purporting myself to be anything. What I am interested in is a rational discussion of technique. YMMV

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Edited by - catty on 03/24/2010 11:27:54

catty - Posted - 03/25/2010:  13:30:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe...how string masters have been playing for the last letīs say 100 years.

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Mostly, with non-optimal technique--most of them would tell you so themselves. But enough quibbling.

catty - Posted - 03/25/2010:  14:16:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe ...we have a saying "In war time and love life - choose your opponent with great care" - you did simply choose wrong.

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Personally, I'm not at war here (nor in love). But I must say, for shear entertainment, I did indeed choose correctly--this thread (you) are a hoot!

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Edited by - catty on 03/25/2010 14:32:05

catty - Posted - 03/25/2010:  15:05:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe I wonder - why do you not "proclaim"yourself in a complete way - telling this forum about your name, sex, age, whereabout, musical interests and activities etc. etc.

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Randal: musician, sculptor, misanthrope...Missoula, USA

NYCJazz - Posted - 03/25/2010:  15:07:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Nathan,

Respect!

See - now weīre getting along somehow - LOL!

BTW - I have studied a few of Cynthiaīs recordings at YouTube - also her choice of grips seems influenced by the "Comfort, Control an Relaxation" principle only.

Polle

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Polle

Comfort, Control and Relaxation? That's what it's all about, isn't it? Most of the time her hand is flying up and down the neck. I'd say she lands, rather than grips!

I'll be seeing her in about an hour...

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Edited by - NYCJazz on 03/25/2010 15:08:37

catty - Posted - 03/25/2010:  17:48:41

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Non-optimal technique; works for him:

youtube.com/watch?v=5hSW67ySCi...ature=fvw



More-optimal technique:

youtube.com/watch?v=4TmxfHbd-M0


Some only aspire to play rock and blues...nothing wrong with that, of course. But for classical and flamenco, approach #1 will not work very effectively. James Brown is great, but Baryshnikov he ain't. For those who do not like "rules"-- sorry, there's a point at which optimal technique is not just an aesthetic choice, but a necessary one. For banjo playing, R&B, rock...fine, relax the hand--no problem. But for more technically demanding styles, or a discussion of pedagogy, this imposes some problems.

In the guitar example given by Polle (youtube.com/watch?v=Ff1hSDnCw9c) , I get tired just watching the extra movment in his left arm as he works to reposition--bringing his thumb back over the top of the neck. The problem here is that his position of comfort, rather than being optimal (from a physiological standpoint), requires extra energy as he must reposition back and forth to/from his position of comfort. He makes it much harder than it needs to be; as in all precision activities--racing, skating, skiing, etc.--the best technique is the most economical. So, conversely, if you start with an optimal position of comfort--which is difficult to acquire in the beginning, and typically derided by those who didn't start by acquiring this skill (Pollle )--then you eliminate all that extra movement and kinesthetic energy requirement.

Any competent classical or technically proficient jazz teacher will START by teaching you to eliminate any extraneous movement. This is what's known as "proper" technique--that one should always aspire to when learning the fundamentals. If a teacher teaches you to fly your fingers around and slope your thumb and anything other than economic movement, you should immediately seek another teacher. If you start with proper fundamentals, you can always adapt your technique and play with lazy form later (we all do...except for maybe Paco ) , but going the other way will be a much bigger problem for you. Don't cheat yourself if you aspire for maximum technical ability.

Is Curtis a good player?...you bet. Good music?...yep. But I don't know anyone who would teach this approach to a beginner. If you like the "cowboy" grip, or tennis racket grip, or whatever it is, fine. It works for Curtis...and Hendrix, Stevie Ray, et al...but it wouldn't work for me for the type of music I play. I do slope my thumb over the neck occasionally when playing narrow necked instruments, blues guitar, etc., but never, ever classical or flamenco. I would never teach this as fundamentals, regardless of the instrument (unless it is de rigeuer for the instrument: vis-a-vis fiddle and mandolin)--it can be easily acquired later by anyone.

Arguing over rejection of "rules," standards, norms, etc. is well and fine, but a bit silly. Fundamentals are called thus because they are fundamentally sound: predictably providing good results, and minimizing acquisition of inefficient technique that could later hinder a player. In the modern age of the internet when you have easy access to superior models, why settle? Every field of endeavor has a "best practices" model, which is nice so that we needn't reinvent the wheel every week.

I'm sorry Polle...I can only anticipate the miasma of wacky anecdotes which will comprise your war-like response. But I'm sure you're a fine chap, otherwise.


Oops...a better example above would probably be Greg Hines or somebody...the Godfather was just the first one to jump out.

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Edited by - catty on 03/26/2010 08:16:49

catty - Posted - 03/26/2010:  09:27:35

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I think the answer is simply because strict, classical form--while offering many advantages--is unnecessary for most playing, as I've mentioned.

I understand what you say about the benefit of using classical studies to gain technical facility--Leo Kottke does this. Leo's playing is very technically demanding, both left and right hands; his example is an artist striving to enhance his technique--or optimizing his technique--in order to render the highest degree of expression possible.

So, classical form is not for everyone certainly--for many players, investing the time and effort for study may not be an efficient practice...I don't know that Jimi ever used it, for example. I use the lazy approach about half-and-half on narrow-necked instruments. But "classical" form provides many advantages which I would recommend, absolutely, for beginners to stringed instruments.

Here's a good example of a predominantly classical left-hand approach in an eclectic style: youtube.com/watch?v=FL6dy1J_dxU ...you can see the hand relax occasionally as the thumb migrates over the top of the neck, but not excessively. During the chordal section beginning at 1:10", good form is employed to enable facile use of the fingers to meet technical requirements. And, during the particularly technical section beginning at 2:50", Allan again reverts back to strict form to optimize his hand/finger angle--especially the 4th and 5th fingers: if you play like this with your thumb draped over the neck...you may or may not develop hand/tendon problems in your later years! Sure it's possible, but I sure wouldn't want to do it--given the choice.

Probably more relevant to the readers of this thread, here's Buddy Wachter: youtube.com/watch?v=cHBFYkxq3GM ...same thing: Buddy relaxes occasionally when he doesn't need to employ stringent form, but you can see that during particularly technical sections he uses "classical" form quite a bit.

In fairness to Curtis, I just watched that vid in its entirety, and see that Curtis is frequently using his thumb as a dampening technique, quite commonly used by guitarists. But you can see that he too moves his thumb more to the center of the neck during particularly technical sections--which only makes sense, as it frees up the fingers better.



As an aside...the sublime Paco:

youtube.com/watch?v=Uz4_hHLBO4...e=related

youtube.com/watch?v=-PW_NESGPD...e=related

youtube.com/watch?v=RYkz30RL_G...e=related

youtube.com/watch?v=JxmP6BtozP...e=related

youtube.com/watch?v=ElVtge2Q6D...e=related

youtube.com/watch?v=rS2SQbAK76...e=related

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Edited by - catty on 03/26/2010 18:17:49

catty - Posted - 03/27/2010:  06:01:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
So the "classic" grip on a tenor is not just "unnecessary" - itīs also "impossible" most of the time.

The violin grip - not the "classic" or so-called McNeil grip - is the basic and fundamental grip on all 5th tuned instruments [/b]- beside tenor banjo f.ex. violin, cello, mandolin etc. - being a multi-instrumental musician/teacher you should know this, I think.

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The first statement is patently false: (see all the videos provided for examples)

The second is also totally incorrect: cello technique for the thumb is the same as for double-bass (viz., "classical" form). Also: larger mandolin-family instruments--octave mandolins (or mandola, as I believe they're called in your neck of the woods), larger bouzoukis, 5- and 6-course citterns, mandocellos, etc.--easily permit the "classical" left-hand approach: youtube.com/watch?v=b4f7voIo-X...e=related ... youtube.com/watch?v=rFqThPZejT...e=related ; also, oud, and lutes of all shapes and sizes; as well as mandolins themselves: youtube.com/watch?v=qlQuZFAHKJ...e=channel

The only instruments for which "violin grip" is the "standard" technique are violins and mandolins (and other small-scale instruments like soprano uke, etc.) where the width and scale of the neck make anything else impractical.

Although I'm largely repeating myself, I'll make an attempt here to clearly state my preference in what is largely a matter of opinion, as I'm not interested in subterfuge and a bunch of tiresome rhetoric about "right and wrong," "rules," etc...

I use, and teach, the classical approach. The reason I teach it and use it is because I have found, through personal experience, that it is generally superior--by offering more advantages relative to disadvantages--than any other left-hand approach on all instruments that permit such and where it is practical to employ such technique.

To say that Buddy does this or does not do that, because I once met him, and so and so is a personal friend of mine, and you don't know anything about the masters and string playing for 100 years...ad nauseum, is getting tedious. Anyone who wants to view the video examples may do so.

quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Thereīs basicly nothing wrong in your postings -

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Well, I've gone from being "totally wrong" and "disqualified from this thread/discussion" to being "basically nothing wrong." I guess I'm making progress

quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

- only there were totally off-topic and misplaced.

Am I right - or am I right?

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I must again disagree. I began my contribution to this thread talking about the theory of classical form and the efficacy of such on all stringed instruments where practical--as opposed to violin grip--which, of course, is the gist of this thread, and, my experiences employing this technique, with which you argued vigorously for several posts. Now, you are saying that I am off-topic? You just said this in your above post:

quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Do you have the answer(s)? If so - do tell them to the 4-string banjo players here at BHO. This is important stuff, I think.

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With respect to Irish-style playing, a relaxed grip is commonly used because the style is riff-based where the player is typically playing out of a position, similar to rock, blues and other riff-based styles. Typically, for those of us who use a classical approach but also use a relaxed hand at times, we do the latter when we aren't shifting positions much (see this in all the video examples, above and below).

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Edited by - catty on 03/27/2010 15:27:01

catty - Posted - 03/27/2010:  07:53:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

The violin grip - not the "classic" or so-called McNeil grip - is the basic and fundamental grip on all 5th tuned instruments.

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I think you're mistakenly making an inherent association between the technique convention (violin grip) and the tuning (5ths) of the instrument. The convention of cradling the narrow neck of an instrument in the palm of the hand (vis-a-vis, violin grip) has nothing to do with the tuning of the instrument, but rather, the size and shape of the neck. It is a convention because it is comfortable--not because it renders any particular technical advantages relative to execution. Classical form is a convention because it is technically superior--not because it is particularly comfortable. Keeping your thumb at the center of the neck is like maintaining perfect posture--it's fatiguing. So we relax and play comfortably...because we can...and this, therefore, is the "conventional" technique for players who do not study other methods. The more you practice the "classical" form, the more you can employ it wthout fatigue: those who practice classical form will use it more, but probably not always; those who do not practice it will use it very little , if at all.

You may notice that even fiddle and mandolin players occasionally move the thumb more toward the center of the neck to facilitate optimal utility for the fingers, while many violinists and mando players use more of a classical approach altogether:
youtube.com/watch?v=qlQuZFAHKJ...e=channel
youtube.com/watch?v=qOVwokQnV4...e=related ...which, again, enables optimal finger utility required for techniques such as vibrato, etc.

I've already provided an example of banjo playing employing classical form (which you dispute--but the evidence is seen in the clip); as you seem now to be making the spurious connection of an inherent relationship between "violin" grip and 5ths-tuning, these vids pulled more or less randomly from ytube might help correct that:

youtube.com/watch?v=Jwf8TuJOuc0
youtube.com/watch?v=TUvbHZmign...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=m6snNwJNl-...ature=fvw
youtube.com/watch?v=R0H457x9Qu...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=d1W-HKKWk1...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=eL6xQZXrii...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=F_HLe4u3oH...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=FtfnSdbCvt...e=related

What it boils down to is a stylistic choice: on narrow-necked instruments especially, one can usually play with a relaxed (violin grip) left-hand approach if desired--bringing the thumb over the top of the neck for a chord or a scale position relaxes the muscles of the forearm, wrist, and hand which are employed to render the wrist-forward "classical" position. But, as often as not, players play (banjos, even mandolins and violins...and all manner of instruments, 5ths-tuned and not) with wrist forward and thumb closer to the center of the neck, because it is prudent or necessary--especially for technical music (see all the videos for examples).

Tim O'Brien is a multi-string player (and a very good one), for example, who uses a classical approach to all stringed instruments: youtube.com/watch?v=qlQuZFAHKJ...e=channel

...and on fiddle, you'll notice how he shifts his thumb more toward the center to facilitate optimal utility of the 4th and 5th fingers: youtube.com/watch?v=ApVHPQKrUN...e=related (incidentally, hearing Tim perfrom this in Boulder around 1990 is what inspired me to play fiddle myself--this is still one of my favorite tunes)

quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Oh - when will this nonsens ever end?

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Edited by - catty on 03/27/2010 15:40:49

catty - Posted - 03/27/2010:  15:43:19

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...what the heck happened to Polle?

It wasn't necessary to delete all of your posts, Polle. I have admitted many times to being wrong (especially to my wife). It's a healthy thing to be able to do.

I feel a bit silly, now, having written a full page of posts...apparently having a one-way dialogue..


To any others reading this thread: I'm sorry if Polle's feelings were hurt--I did make an effort to not become aroused to Polle's condescension. I understand that folks get attached to their beliefs and viewpoints...but, I find it a bit strange that someone would have such a reaction to the discussion of whether or not to arch the left wrist!

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Edited by - catty on 03/27/2010 17:23:11

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 03/29/2010:  04:48:22

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catty,

The present "discussion" is not the reason for me deleting my postings in different threads going some months back plus deleting all of my personal datas.

The reasons are several - but the most prominent is, that my lack of english reading and writing skills has become depressing for me for some time - I am interested in many banjo-related topics and have many things to tell (of interest for many members) - but it takes me many, many hours to write a long posting (with the use of several dictionaries and a lot of words/expressions, that I do hardly understand in the correct way) - due to this I do easily lose an overview - and my postings can become somehow mysterious.

Also the large difference in the nature of humor - f.ex. the straight-forwarded USA-version versus the complex and black/ironic UK/DK-version - does often bring problems and misunderstandings (both ways).

I did absolutely not want to offend you or others in any way - I have now realized, that you didnīt/couldnīt get/understand the hints/points in my postings due to such a difference. Iīll take all the blaim and ask you to please forget all about my postings in the past.


If only I could write my postings using my native language(s) and with the humor as practiced over here integrated - but this is impossible - so from now Iīve degraded myself to an anonymous BHO reader. Iīll in the future only write about hardware technicalities etc. And only in a straight-forwarded way! I guess.


Regarding left hand grips on stringed instruments - I do still not agree with you regarding these! So you didnīt prove me wrong.

The classic grip is essential as previously mentioned/stated - for f.ex. building up strength, control of all fingers/strings etc. - but on some/many instruments you canīt use this some or most of the time - thatīs why other grips will have to be learned and used. Not only as maybe more relaxed/lazy grips, but in fact as "fundamentals".


The present thread is about violin grip on a tenor banjo - I do regard this as a fundamental grip on this instrument. I do personally also regard the combined violin/thumb grip as an absolutely fundamental grip on a tenor - however this grip is extremely technically difficult and psysicly demanding - thatīs one of the reasons why I do normally not teach it - I do only demonstrate it, when asked for - and do for sure use it, when performing.

The fundamental classic grip can be (and shall absolutely be) used on a tenor - but due to its limitations on this instrument only to a certain extend. The limitations are in my view the reason why skilled players are using other grips - not because these grips are more relaxed or lazy.


Thanks for now - please forget/pardon my postings in the past - Iīll now return to my new "relaxed/lazy" BHO status.


Kindly regards

Polle

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Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 03/29/2010 05:56:44

catty - Posted - 03/29/2010:  09:08:27

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Polle,

I am very glad that you are still here. I was worried what may have happened to you--for the reasons expressed above.

While I understand your challenges in expressing yourself clearly in your non-primary language, I think that you convey your thoughts fine. Frankly, I don't think the problem is in the language barrier but, rather, the purpose of the writing. I'm not persuaded by the "Sammy Sosa defense."

quote:

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Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
The classic grip is essential as previously mentioned/stated - for f.ex. building up strength, control of all fingers/strings etc. - but on some/many instruments you canīt use this some or most of the time - thatīs why other grips will have to be learned and used. Not only as maybe more relaxed/lazy grips, but in fact as "fundamentals".

The fundamental classic grip can be (and shall absolutely be) used on a tenor - but due to its limitations on this instrument only to a certain extend. The limitations are in my view the reason why skilled players are using other grips - not because these grips are more relaxed or lazy.

Thanks for now - please forget/pardon my postings in the past - Iīll now return to my new "relaxed/lazy" BHO status.

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While you may not have intended thus, your statement, "The classic grip is essential...for f.ex. building up strength, control of all fingers/strings etc." supports my thesis--that the arched wrist does generally provide for "more control," or facility, of the fingers. The rest of your thesis has already been clearly refuted by the video examples: no other technique "has to be learned"--you are again confusing fundamental with conventional.

My use of the word "relaxed" is descriptive in a physiological vernacular and is not intended pejoratively. My use of the term "lazy" is also not intended pejoratively--but rather, as a commonly used term to denote the former (e.g., "lazy" summer days). It certainly is not intended to make you feel bad about yourself! I'm certain that you are not lazy in your banjo practice and enthusiasm (however, an unbridled enthusiasm can, and often does, inhibit one's capacity for objectivity).

Buck-up man! While I thoroughly disagree with your thesis here--(and didn't appreciate many of your more condescending remarks), I'm certain that you are a far better banjo player than I (although, I may employ more optimal left-hand technique, generally ).

One more thing, Polle. Your style of writing, while perhaps lacking somewhat in clarity, does not lack for vigor or purpose. Most writing, even while perhaps lacking convincing support for its thesis, often reveals more about the writer than the writer is aware.

And, Polle, while I am at times a misanthrope, I am also a social worker. My arguing here was not intended to vanquish you as a foe, but to support my theses. Relaxing one's vehemence can be a good thing . Play on! I'm sure that your students are missing you

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Edited by - catty on 03/29/2010 12:12:24