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DaveH65 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 19:53:52
Hello to all and thanks for a great resource.
I am a reasonably accomplished fingerstyle guitar player, and play with a thumbpick on my thumb and fingernails on my index, middle, and third fingers.
I bought a banjo 10 years ago or so and played around for awhile with Scruggs-style (with thumbpick and 2 metal fingerpicks). But I haven't done much with the banjo recently.
Anyway, I am interested in messing around with clawhammer-style banjo. I have been working on the basic playing pattern (bum-diddy) using a thumbpick. However, I haven't seen anyone yet play clawhammer with a thumbpick, and some of the instructional material I read and/or watch seems to imply to me that it just won't work to use a thumbpick in clawhammer style (because it seems that the thumb needs to stop and briefly anchor on the 5th string during the brush stroke).
I am apprehensive about trying to learn clawhammer without a thumbpick, as I'm afraid it will mess up my fingerstyle guitar playing, which will continue to be my primary focus.
Does anyone have any thoughts about the practicality of playing clawhammer style with a thumbpick? Or even does anyone have any experience of successfully using a thumbpick on some instruments while using no thumbpick for clawhammer banjo?
Thanks in advance!
Dave
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/08/2010: 20:10:01
I know a few hundred fingerstyle guitarists (including me) who get along fine clawhammering without a thumbpick. It is a very different motion altogether and I don't recommend using a thumbpick for clawing in any circumstance - the thumb is also your "mute" for the 5th string, since it is rarely fretted and mostly the left hand fingers are not in a good position to serve as a mute.
Take a look at my basic strokes videos (lessons 1 & 2) on the video page of my website
http://www.rocketsciencebanjo.com
While you are there download the free ebook and read chapter 3 which is all about the basic strokes.
There is a lot of other useful information in the book and about 38 tabs of beginning clawhammer tunes.
chip arnold - Posted - 02/08/2010: 20:31:50
What woodchuck said.
And welcome to BHO!
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/08/2010: 21:22:31
It would still be hard to play other styles of clawhammer with a thumbpick. Holcomb's 5th string's very noisy; it works fine with that driving style, but it would be a disaster for fiddle tunes, otoh.
Paul R - Posted - 02/08/2010: 21:38:49
I have a 1983 L'Arrivee guitar that sounds great finger picked with bare fingers, and one of his '72 dreadnaughts that sounds better with picks. Think of the banjo in a similar way. Some music (bluegrass) sounds best with finger picks, other music sounds good without, same for instruments.
My problem is using the middle fingernail to sound the notes crisply - I've noticed that some people use a reversed finger pick.
jazz-phil - Posted - 02/09/2010: 01:37:33
I played clawhammer for 30 years using a thumbpick, being in the UK I didn't know any better. I used to use the heel of my right hand to control the 5th string. Having said that, I switched to thumb playing a few years ago and I wouldn't switch back.
drybones - Posted - 02/09/2010: 04:03:13
It's pretty interesting that some will see the pick as the road to ruin while others can show great playing using a thumb pick. To some extent I think it depends on the sound you like. Picks create a brighter, harder sound.
I prefer the sound players get without picks.
I can say from experience, that retraining the muscle memory of your hand can be a daunting, time consuming endeavor. So the other question to ask yourself is how much time and effort would you like to put into it? I'd love to play finger style guitar blues, clawhammer banjo and Irish banjo. I'll have to live a long long time be good at all three . . .
db
banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/09/2010: 15:32:47
Listen to the Roscoe Holcomb clip and see if that is how you want to sound. I use a LOT of thumb, but that would run me out of the room. I love quite a bit of what RH did, but that is not on the list!
Bisbonian - Posted - 02/09/2010: 15:59:37
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e
Listen to the Roscoe Holcomb clip and see if that is how you want to sound. I use a LOT of thumb, but that would run me out of the room.
Exactly. I don't want to sound like that either...but it's worth a listen to see what it's like.
farmer bob - Posted - 02/09/2010: 17:12:04
I play a lot of three finger old time banjo and finger style guitar with metal and when I began to play claw I was reluctant to give up the thumb pick. But what happened is the thumb pick volume would over power my middle finger melody so I gave up the thumb pick. I think you will come to the same conclusion... Bob.
DaveH65 - Posted - 02/09/2010: 18:54:51
Thanks to all for the excellent comments. I think I will reboot my beginning clawhammer style without the thumbpick.
And it's interesting to note farmer bob's comment, because I had already noticed that the 5th string volume did seem to be out of balance (too loud) with the thumbpick.
Regards
Bigbike4 - Posted - 02/09/2010: 19:02:32
There are ways to play the banjo with a thumbpick. But it is not clawhammer style. It is more of a folk style and a lot of guitar players who also play banjo play this way. I have seen Pete S, George (Kingston Trio), Emily S. (Indigo Girls) all do it. It is a pattern that I am trying to learn more about and adapt to my banjo play, as clawhammer is nice as is scruggs style, but to me it is still lacking something. The folk rythym strum seams to be it for me.
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 02/09/2010: 22:06:56
I once knew a fellow from Georgia named Art Chambers who was probably born around 1900.
He played what he called drop-thumb frailing. He wore a plastic thumbpick, a plastic fingerpick on his index finger the way a BG player would, and another plastic fingerpick reversed on his middle finger.
He'd stroke down with his middle and pluck up with his index. His was a sort of combination two-finger picking / frailing style, and he drop-thumbed as well.
The picks may increase the volume and sharpen up the tone of your banjo.
You are worried about messing up your guitar playing by not using a thumbpick. Especially if you subscribe to the cocked thumb school of clawhammer, it is a totally different use of the thumb which may have less or more impact on your guitar playing. CH is a totally different approach than fingerpicked guitar.
If you want to learn CH my recommendation would be to do so without the picks.
Check out Tony Spadero's (aka The Old WoodChuck) excellent on-line learning materials for what the hand motion looks like.
Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 02/09/2010 22:09:07
banjopogo - Posted - 02/09/2010: 22:23:08
Back when I started playing banjo in 1970, and starting going to Cal State Northridge
(the one that got wrecked later in the Northridge quake) there was a jam session on the lawn every Friday at 1:00 pm. Mix of mostly bluegrass and some Old Time.
There was a melodic clawhammer picker there name either Dan Levitt, Drew Levitt, or both!
(I think he'd gone back and forth between the two himself!)
Anyway, he used a thumb-pick for drop thumb clawhammer. The effect was quite remarkable- it didn't sound exactly Old Time anymore, but it wasn't very bluegrassy either, since it didn't syncopate. It would have kind of fit in with Doc Watson, I'd guess. He could play melodies VERY clean and fast, and he and a Scruggs picker at the jam would do fiddle tunes in harmony together.
The good and the bad thing about it was that it evened out the character of the nail vs. thumb notes- instead of being a contrast, they sounded a lot alike. I preferred the contrast between them, so it wasn't an appealing direction for me. But I did enjoy listening to it.
Anyway, if you're into hyper-melodic clawhammer anyway, maybe it'll get you where you want to go.
vernob - Posted - 02/11/2010: 12:25:54
Would you wear a thumb pick when playing piano?
bournio - Posted - 02/12/2010: 09:24:38
quote:
Originally posted by vernob
Would you wear a thumb pick when playing piano?
Would you play piano by hitting it with your fingernail? Would you play an electric guitar with your fingers? Oh wait... I do. I guess you can play with picks if you want! I cracked my finger nail about a month ago, so I just tweaked my guitar finger picks a little bit more, and then after playing like this realised the thumb notes were hard to hear so I added a thumb pick too.
Edited by - bournio on 02/12/2010 09:28:59
Couchie - Posted - 02/12/2010: 10:31:02
Raymond McLain used to play clawhammer with this bluegrass picks on. He used his ring finger for the downstroke and a thumb with the pick still on for the thumb notes. Sounded pretty good.
bluemule_77 - Posted - 02/12/2010: 10:49:58
quote:
Originally posted by vernob
Would you wear a thumb pick when playing piano?
Don't worry, vernob. I understood your point even if others didn't. It was a good one. Brian
whyteman - Posted - 02/13/2010: 09:28:41
I understand what some folks are saying about the balance between not having a pick on the finger you frail with and an overly loud thumbpick dominating.
However, it seems to me that Hobart Smith solved this problem by using a metal pick on his index and playing away from the neck. I realize that a lot people would not want his harsh sound, but his playing was clean and driving. Not exactly what many would call "old time" these days, but certainly traditional and non-bluegrass.
I hope Dave listens to Hobart Smith, and if he likes that sound, let that guide him towards using a thumb pick while frailing.
Don.
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