unreformed66 - Posted - 02/08/2010:  19:28:15

Hey guys, I've noticed that with both my banjos (early 80's Sigma and early 70's Alvarez) that when I capo at the 2nd fret and have the 5th string under the spike at the 7th that I am about a quarter of a step sharp according to the tuner. I have checked this with 3 different tuners and find the same thing. If I take the capo off and check intonation open and at the 12th fret I'm right on the money, so it doesn't look like a bridge placement problem. What gives? Any ideas or suggestions?

mrphysics55 - Posted - 02/08/2010:  19:38:11

Could be that your nut is too tall ...

... Or your capo is too tight ... (?)

MrP

Bigbike4 - Posted - 02/08/2010:  19:41:01

Depends on what capo you are using. If it is a "clip on" style that just clamps over the strings (made of plastic and foam) that is most likely your problem. The Shrubb clamp style capo solves this problem usually. It was something that I never much thought about but the Kingston Trio instructional video, brought this very issue up.

steve davis - Posted - 02/08/2010:  19:45:23

I use a feeler gauge to measure clearance from the 1st fret to the bottom of the strings.
.010 to .015 is a good ballpark range.I keep mine at .010.
When you get up to .015 and further the strings can be sharp
at the low frets,but on at the 12th fret check.

If excessive,the nut slots are filed lower.

Banjov1 - Posted - 02/08/2010:  19:45:37

Sometimes if you place the capo too far away from the fret that you're "capo-ing" and tighten it too much you might experience what you're describing. You're supposed to place the capo as close as possible to the capoed fret without being on top of it. And try not to tighten too much.

Also usually after placing my capo on, I'll give a firm palm push on the strings close to the bridge to sort of minimize the sharpness. If I'm lucky I usually only have to tune the 5th string down a bit.

T

xnavyguy - Posted - 02/08/2010:  20:40:41

I'm in the camp with Steve Davis. That is, I find on my banjos where the strings are high at the nut they have a tendency to want to go sharp when capoed. Getting the string slots lower at the nut can take a lot of grief out of capoing. That and placing the capo near the fret, under light tension, helps a lot. On banjos with 5th strings that clear the 5th fret, because the 5th string pip is too high, the 5th string will always go sharp when capoed because it has been shortened the distance between the frets PLUS the distance to the 5th string pip.

youdye - Posted - 02/09/2010:  05:33:01

....especially if you have one of the keyser clamp capos. those things tend to REALLY chomp down on the strings. I use the shubb capos on both of my banjos and no worries with it.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/09/2010:  05:49:52

I'm also in the Steve and xnavyguy camp. If the nut grooves are too high, that will cause trouble "right out of the gate", likewise the pip. I always make and place the pip so that it just holds the string in place, but the string crosses and bears on the 5th fret. On some guitars, especially 12 strings, and other instruments like bouzoukis, the nut is just behind a "0" position fret, so that the strings begin at perfect fret height. This makes sense for several reasons: minimal sharping due to capo pressure, much easier notch filing in the nut, which is "for position only", no sound difference between the open note and the fretted note.
I wonder why this isn't done on banjos.

My favorite capo is still an elastic Dunlop / Bill Russell type that I punched an additional hole in.

grm405 - Posted - 02/09/2010:  06:19:08

I have been doing a lot of capoing lately and have run into this problem. My nut slots are not high, the action is normal and the neck relief is fine. I find that I can minimize the sharpening by careful placement of the capo. Some recommend placing it just behind the fret and not making it tight. I don't like this because the capo will move around a lot. I find that the best solution, based on my checking with a tuner, is to capo in the middle of the distance between the two frets and clamping it down tight enough to make it stable. If it get it near the upper fret, the sharpening is a lot worse.

I use a Paige capo (hard plastic tube) and Schubb (very soft rubber sleeve). I can see no difference between them for sharpening, although they do sound different (Paige is cleaner and less tubby).

My 5th string problems are different. My Crafters has a pip behind the 5th fret. When fingering the 5th string the notes are flat but when capoing they are close to right. The offset of the pip corrects for the extra tension of the string when it is pulled down hard to the fretboard. My OME has a short 5th fret and the pip placed at the end of the fret. This gives an accurate note when played, but goes way sharp when capoed.

I simply have to retune when capoing. Learn a few jokes to distract the audience.

Gerry

steve davis - Posted - 02/09/2010:  06:49:09

When I make my compensated bridge I back off the 5th string notch so that it doesn't need to be retuned when capoed.
None of my strings need to be retuned when using a capo.
There are no perceptively sharp strings when fretted anywhere
on the neck...all the way to the 22nd fret.

When I tune my banjo before a gig,I put the tuner back
in my case and don't use it again for days at a time.

There is no need to put up with sharp or out of tune notes
on a banjo.

My capo is a 25 year old Shubb.

Edited by - steve davis on 02/09/2010 06:50:43

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/09/2010:  08:57:43

I normally retune if I move the capo, but I check the tuning between songs anyway - just a habit. Sometimes a string just goes out a little, depending on the pegs. I have found that the older strings get, the more you have to fool with the tuning.
I have NOT found the capo to mess up the tuning, but my nut slots are correct.

The Old Timer - Posted - 02/09/2010:  10:33:27

I get this on several of my banjos just at the 3rd and 4th strings. I'm in the habit now of "squashing" those two strings silently to flatten them a hair when I capo. I use mostly Shubbs and a McKinney. I try to get close to the fret and the minimum tightness that will make a clear note.

Probably banjos should have zero frets. I wonder if some maker will start doing that routinely?

steve davis - Posted - 02/09/2010:  12:03:19

My banjo doesn't go out of tune.No matter what kind of capo I use.
There's no need for a zero fret.

KE - Posted - 02/09/2010:  12:31:49

Placing the capo right up next to the fret works for me. I guess everyone needs to find their own solution.

uncle.fogey - Posted - 02/09/2010:  12:37:23

You're lucky, Steve.
By banjo doesn't go out of tune because of the frets or capo, it's because of the strings and the tuning pegs, and as I said, I retune it periodically anyway just to see if it's still in tune - like a farmer pulling up carrots to see if they're ready to pull up.

steve davis - Posted - 02/09/2010:  12:42:17

Mine doesn't go out of tune because of my bridge.
Of course the first fret string clearance is minimal
and the action isn't too high,but if I use a straight bridge
I have to retune a little when capoing and I don't like
some of the fretted notes up the neck.

My bridge design cleans this all up very nicely.