Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/08/2010:  13:11:38

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In the topic http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/168932/3 Tom Hanway asked several really interesting questions, so here I am trying to answer them.

Q: Honestly, how would you like to be asked, hypothetically, these relevant questions about your contribution to 5-string banjo?
A: For a long time I was firmly convinced that I cannot really offer any contribution to 5-string banjo world where I am only stealing the picking techniques from them. But when I started to use (in addition to the three 5-string banjo fingerpicks) the ring fingernailpick, I suspected that this might be interesting also for 5-string banjo players. With TIM plus R you have two downpicking fingers (T, R) and two uppicking fingers (I,M), which offers some new possibilities.

Q: Can you comfortably play Paddy's tab up the neck on a 19-fret tenor banjo? What about a 17-fret tenor banjo?
A: My tenor banjo is tuned to DGdg - on 19th fret there is d, on 17th fret there is c - the same note which is on 22th fret of 5-string banjo. My upper range (of 19-fret tenor banjo) is then two frets higher than the range of 5-string. The lower range is the same D.

Q: Why do you play the tenor banjo with fingerpicks, when you can play the 5-string banjo with fingerpicks?
A: There are many answers. Because nobody did it to such extent before (as far as I know). Because it is possible. Because there are so many fingerpicking 5-string banjo players. If 5-string banjo player can transcribe Chuck Berry guitar licks to 5-string banjo, I can transcribe 5-string banjo licks to tenor banjo. If 5-string banjo player can play the tenor banjo (Irish, Celtic) tunes on 5-string, I can play 5-string banjo tunes on tenor banjo.

Q: Do you ever miss the fifth string when you hear a 5-string player using it, even fretting it?
A: In my tuning I do have the same g note at 1st string, so I do not miss it most of the time – i. e. when it is not fretted. If it is fretted up the neck, I miss the doubled pair of strings (1st and 5th are the same up the neck) which are used in melodic style. This I cannot copy to full extent.
What I miss more is the 2nd string (B), especially in those signature licks with 2-3 on G string and open B string. And also in melodic style where there is big gap betwen G and D string. That is why I do not focus on melodic style.

Q: Would there be some advantage to changing Paddy’s tab, not playing the fifth string the way he plays it, considering that you don’t have a fifth string? In other words: In ‘Blackberry Blossom’, since it’s impossible for you to play the fourth measure in the B section string for string on your 4-string banjo, or any 4-string banjo, can you explain the functionality or desirability of not having a fifth string?
A: In the previous answer I have confessed that I cannot copy the melodic segments where alternates fretted 1st string and fretted 5th string. What I can only do is to convert them to single string passage, which is somehow disturbing in the tune arranged mainly in melodic style. However I do not see big problem in the tune arranged dominantly in single string style (which is the case of Paddy’s tab of Blackberry Blossom at http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/168932/3 ).

Q: Given that many of Paddy’s arrangements, and fingerstyle 5-string arrangements in general, involve the use of the fifth string, which you don’t use, can you explain the benefits of playing the 4-string banjo over the 5-string banjo on a tune-by-tune basis and across genres?
A: I explained above that I use the high g string – which is my 1st string. Well, the benefit of playing the 4-string banjo over the 5-string banjo depends on whether you possess both of those banjos or just 4-string one. In the latter case the benefit equals to the difference of cost for additional (5-string) banjo and cost of the fingerpicks. The owner of (only) 4-string banjo can just buy the fingerpicks and play. Another benefit is the wider range of open strings (on zero fret): D-g for my tenor banjo, D-d for 5-string. Also the „regular“ bass-to-treble order of strings on tenor banjo enables to use the quitar picking techniques (Travis picking etc.) to bigger extent than the 5-string banjo. The benefit of belonging to the „1st generation of tenor banjo fingerpickers“ might be also valuable for someone who considers to try this style.

Q: What 4-string banjo/s are you playing these days and why?
A: I play mainly two open back banjos, because I like the sound projection to my stomach. Janish with Mastertone type tonering, originally with one-piece flange, which was cut to serve as the bracket band only; resonator removed. Capek, my travel banjo with Whyte Laydie type tonering.

Q: Is it advisable to play a certain banjo on certain days of the week, and other banjos on other days of the week (including but not limited to 5- and 6-string banjos?)
A: I can speak only about 4-string banjos as I do not have the other types. Capek is in my car so I am using it in the morning of workdays on the office parkplace before I go to work – this guaranties me half an hour of practice every day. Janish is at home and is played during evenings and weekends.

Q: What recommends your banjo/s over top 5-string brands in a similar price range?
A: My banjos are Czech made which is very relevant to me.

Mirek
www.mirekpatek.com
http://www.banjosessions.com/dec09/patek.html
http://www.banjosessions.com/feb10/patek.html

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/12/2010 22:56:49

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/09/2010:  02:17:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mirek Patek

In the topic http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/168932/3 Tom Hanway asked several really interesting questions, so here I am trying to answer them.

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Thank you for replying Mirek. These are really interesting answers, prompting some deeper questions, if you'd please bear with me, queries about your unique style which I hope you will find equally interesting.

An interesting answer deserves an interesting question.

You gave us this answer: "But when I started to use (in addition to the three 5-string banjo fingerpicks) the ring fingernailpick, I suspected that this might be interesting also for 5-string banjo players. With TIM plus R you have two downpicking fingers (T, R) and two uppicking fingers (I,M), which offers some new possibilities."

This prompts several questions?

What recommends the use of four fingerpicks for 4-string banjo over a single plectrum, the norm for tenor, plectrum and 4-string styles?

Many are familiar with 5-string virtuoso Gregory Liszt (Crooked Still and Bruce Springsteen), and my questions to you are:

Did you get the idea from Gregory Liszt to put an “extra” pick on the ring finger or did you encounter this technique somewhere else, and if so from where?

Can we find a precedent for it in 5-string banjo playing, in either classical, old-time or bluegrass styles, from the 19th or 20th century?

What recommends your style of "downpicking" with the ring finger over picking upwards with the additional ringer finger, as Gregory Liszt does?

Similarly, can you see any benefit of your "downpicking" approach with the ring finger over picking upwards with the ring finger?

Also, what is preferable about your "downpicking" ring-finger approach over playing arpeggios with all four fingers, using the thumb (downwards) and the index, middle and ring fingers (all upwards) - when it comes to playing four strings in succession, in either direction?

I have more questions for you about your fingerpicking 4-string banjo approach and what might recommend it to others – since you politely started a thread speaking to questions about your style:

What recommends being able to pick in one direction with the ring finger, which you use as a downpicking finger with the addition of the ring-fingernail pick, over using that finger to play in both directions, for tremolos (with or without a fingerpick)?

Would you consider using a double-sided pick, like the mizraab sitar or a thimble or something else, in order to play in both directions with the ring finger, especially for tremolos, allowing that finger now to be used for up-picking as well as downpicking?

How do you currently play arpeggios and tremolos in your 4-string up-picking and down-picking style, using the additional ring-fingernail pick and what recommends your approach over using a flatpick (plectrum) as, say for example, tenor banjoist Buddy Wachter uses?

Visit Buddy here for a glimpse of his recordings and a quote from “Johnny Hartford”

Lastly, for now, since this is an unusual and interesting thread topic, with more questions popping up the more you think about it:

How do you strum chords in a traditional 4-string style using four fingerpicks pointing in different directions – two downwards picks (thumb and ring) and two upwards picks (index and middle)?

What recommends being able to strum a 4-string banjo (tenor or plectrum) wearing fingerpicks (three or four fingerpicks) in your personal style?

Thank you in advance! Enquiring minds want to know, so thank you Mirek for starting a new thread topic.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/09/2010 02:21:33

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/09/2010:  04:02:44

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Q:What recommends the use of four fingerpicks for 4-string banjo over a single plectrum, the norm for tenor, plectrum and 4-string styles?
A: Short answer - if the "norm" is limiting, it shall be broken. In the world of quitar playing, there are flatpickers and fingerpickers exploring many playing styles. I remember that in the sleeve note of Tony Trischka's Terrritory CD I have read that this is the reason of huge success of (versatile) guitar and smaller penetrance of (selfrestricted) banjo.

More answers will follow as time permits.

Mirek

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/10/2010 14:26:19

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/09/2010:  05:44:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mirek Patek

Q:What recommends the use of four fingerpicks for 4-string banjo over a single plectrum, the norm for tenor, plectrum and 4-string styles?
A: Short answer - if the "norm" is limiting, it shall be broken. In the world of quitar playing, there are flatpickers and fingerpickers exploring many playing styles. I remember that in the sleeve note of Tony Trischka's Terrritory CD I have read that this is the reason of huge success of (versatile) guitar and smaller penetrance of (selfrestricted) banjo.

More answers will follow as time permits.

Mirek

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Interesting! So you're saying "if the 'norm' is limiting, it shall be broken" - fair enough.

Let's focus on 4-string banjo, your instrument of choice; how do you define the "norm" in terms of playing technique - some clarification please?

More specifically, as regards "norm", to whom do you refer in terms of 4-string banjo technique - two related questions to cover it:

(1) Which players have set the standards (norm), traditionally, or in the past?

(2) Which players are setting the current standards (norm)?

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/09/2010:  08:16:38

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Q: Did you get the idea from Gregory Liszt to put an “extra” pick on the ring finger or did you encounter this technique somewhere else, and if so from where? What recommends your style of "downpicking" with the ring finger over picking upwards with the additional ringer finger, as Gregory Liszt does?

A: I am aware of Gregory Liszt four picking (TIMR) style, but my starting point was different. Having only four strings on my banjo, I do not see generally much frequent need for having four picking fingers (T down, IMR up), i. e. one finger for each string.

On the other hand one may say that because I do not have the thin g string on thumb side, but on the treble side, I need always "one finger more" than the 5-string player: he can play the ascending chain of strings by TIMT, but I would need TIMR. Well, when emulating the forward reverse roll I have to cross the right hand fingers:

d------0---0-----0---
B--------------------
G----0-------0-------
D--0-----------0-----
g--------0-----------
   T I M T M I T M

g--------0-----------
d------0---0-----0---
G----0-------0-------
D--0-----------0-----
   T I T M T I T I

My pathway to the involvement of right ring finger was directed by the intention to play downpicking/downstrumming techniques derived from clawhammer. I have read that late John Hartford (and I assume that many others too) clawhammered with his bare ring finger with his TIM fingerpicks on place - that means his thumbstroke was with thumbpick. That has been my direct inspiration.

The reason for using ring fingernail pick is just to protect my nail. I tried to put the nail lacquer but without much success. Then I tried Freedom Pick http://elderly.com/accessories/item...P-POLY-L.htm but after the period of satisfaction it appeared too fragile and broke. Now I am using the plastic Dunlop fingerpick, reverted and shortened to cover my ring finger nail.

Q: Would you consider using a double-sided pick, like the mizraab sitar or a thimble or something else, in order to play in both directions with the ring finger, especially for tremolos, allowing that finger now to be used for up-picking as well as downpicking?

A: Not now, because it is too foreign to (5-string) banjo world. I want to use picking tools that are used on 5-string banjo to demonstrate that they really work on the "banjo". TIM fingerpicks as well as downpicking with nail or nailpick is well proven by generations of bluegrass and clawhammer players.

Q: How do you strum chords in a traditional 4-string style using four fingerpicks pointing in different directions – two downwards picks (thumb and ring) and two upwards picks (index and middle)?

A: Here are some youtube tutorials:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3cP0zGXfE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tloLku5q4-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YJJkrDFuwo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2dxV7iAWF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qedqYOhOR2U

Mirek

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/09/2010 23:33:53

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/10/2010:  03:44:44

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Hey buddy, you keep changing the title of your thread (twice that I can count), fair enough, it's yours. In addition, since you acknowledge that your "pathway to the involvement of right ring finger was directed by the intention to play downpicking/downstrumming techniques derived from clawhammer" and because this is another clear instance of you deriving a technique from 5-string banjo, you can change and improve on the thread title, to accurately reflect the totality of your considerable and chimeric technique? Say:

Fingerstyle-clawhammer TENOR/5-string

To keep my name would be too long, now that the thread has taken off, and you have my permission not to use my name in your topic. It's about YOU. Here's a better idea, you can focus on your TENOR contributions, which is a huge and varied subject, keeping in the 5-string as the instrument from which you derive some, if not all, of your techniques, nailing the topic once and for all, as such:

Fingerstyle-clawhammer TENOR/5-string

=======================================

Mirek, you wrote, as if a fiat from up on high: "if the 'norm' is limiting, it shall be broken".

To whom do YOU refer in terms of TENOR banjo technique - two related questions to cover it:

(1) Which players, in your estimation, have set the standards (norm), traditionally, or in the past?

(2) Which players, in your opinion, are setting the current standards (norm)?

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/10/2010 04:00:44

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/10/2010:  22:24:03

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IMTM vs IMIM dilemma solved!

On the Scruggs forum here on BHO there are repeated discussions whether the Foggy Mountain Breakdown roll shall be played by right hand fingering IMTMTIMT or IMIMTIMT. In fingerstyle tenor banjo there is no such dilemma (there are other ones) so one can just play the FMB roll the right and only way: TITIMTIM.

Scruggs:
d----0---0-----0----
B--0---0-----0------
G-------------------
D-------------------
g----------0-----0--
   I M T M T I M T

Stanley:
d----0---0-----0----
B--0---0-----0------
G-------------------
D-------------------
g----------0-----0--
   I M I M T I M T

Patek:
g----------0-----0--
d----0---0-----0----
G--4---4-----4------
D-------------------
   T I T I M T I M

Mirek

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/11/2010 12:28:17

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/11/2010:  09:44:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mirek Patek

IMTM vs IMIM dilemma solved!

On the Scruggs forum here on BHO there are repeated discussions whether the Foggy Mountain Breakdown roll shall be played by right hand fingering IMTMTIMT or IMIMTIMT. In fingerstyle tenor banjo there is no such dilemma (there are other ones) so one can just play the FMB roll the right and only way: TITIMTIM.

Scruggs:
d----0---0-----0----
B--0---0-----0------
G-------------------
D-------------------
g----------0-----0--
   I M T M T I M T

Stanley:
d----0---0-----0----
B--0---0-----0------
G-------------------
D-------------------
g----------0-----0--
   I M I M T I M T

Patek:
g----------0-----0--
d----0---0-----0----
G--4---4-----4------
D-------------------
   T I T I M T I M

Mirek

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Does anyone see a "dilemma" in posting this here and not on the Scruggs forum? Mirek also wrote this: "...one can play the FMB roll the right and only way"?

If he re-tunes his tenor banjo to DGdg (away from the norm for tenor), loses the plectrum (the norm), wears fingerpicks (away from the norm for tenor), and plays Earl Scruggs's signature tune (away from the norm for tenor), with Earl's notes falling on different strings with different tensions, using different fingerings, on a different instrument, would this approach be applicable to tenor or 5-string banjo players?

After all, it is the FMB roll played "the right and only way" according to Patek style.

Who is the "one" to which Mirek refers? Is it the typical Scruggs-style 5-string bluegrass picker using standard G tuning? Is it a typical plectrum-wielding tenor banjo player using one of the standard tenor tunings?

Where is the dilemma one might ask? Also, who would derive the most benefit from this chimeric approach, hypothetically speaking?

By the way, Mirek I see a serendipitous application for your unique FMB roll pattern if used to play the Em (not the G) if we moved the string, numeral and picking-hand sequence over to 5-string (standard), adding a 3-4 hammer-on where you just have the 4 (fourth string). In fact, I've been doing it that way for yours on 5-string for a variation on the Em chord.

Who knew?

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/11/2010 10:23:33

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/11/2010:  13:02:46

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Q: Where is the dilemma one might ask?

A: One of the dilemmas is whether to fret the high g string when playing e.g. the D chord. Of course I fret it because I can do so, but then I am bit further from the immitation of 5-string sound (which is something I sometimes strive for).

Hot Corn, Cold Corn, 3rd measure

Scruggs:
d----0-----0-----0--
B-------------------
G--2-----2-----2----
D-------------------
g------0-----0------
   T M T I M T I M

Patek:
g------0-----0------
d----0-----0-----0--
G--2-----2-----2----
D-------------------
   T I M T I M T I

g------2-----2------
d----0-----0-----0--
G--2-----2-----2----
D-------------------
   T I M T I M T I

Mirek

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/11/2010:  19:13:33

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Foggy Mountain Breakdown - Em chord for Scruggs-style 5-string banjo:

D----------2-----2--|----------2-----2--|
B----0---0-----0----|----0---0-----0----|
G--3^4-3^4---4------|--3^4-3^4---4------|
D---H---H-----------|---H---H-----------|
g-------------------|-------------------|
   T I T I M T I M     T I T I M T I M

Tony Trischka variation

Tony showed me this organic lick back in the late 80s and I practiced it religiously. It's extremely satisfying to play on 5-string and has a parallel contour to the quintessential FMB 5-string banjo lick invented by Earl - you know - the true one.

Try it, you'll like it.

"Never trust a Prankster!"

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/11/2010:  22:51:48

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Thank you, Tom, it is a good variation. It is also one of those licks refered by me in the initial post:
What I miss more is the 2nd string (B), especially in those signature licks with 2-3 on G string and open B string.

As I do not have B string, I would play it on my DGdg tenor banjo as shown below, which backtranslated to 5-string banjo goes back to Scruggs' roll.

Trischka:
d----------2-----2--|----------2-----2--|
B----0---0-----0----|----0---0-----0----|
G--3^4-3^4---4------|--3^4-3^4---4------|
D---H---H-----------|---H---H-----------|
g-------------------|-------------------|
   T I T I M T I M     T I T I M T I M

Patek:
g----------0-----0--|----------0-----0--|
d----2---2-----2----|----2---2-----2----|
G--3^4-3^4---4------|--3^4-3^4---4------|
D---H---H-----------|---H---H-----------|
   T I T I M T I M     T I T I M T I M

Backtranslation to 5-string:
d----2---2-----2----|----2---2-----2----|
B-------------------|-------------------|
G--3^4-3^4---4------|--3^4-3^4---4------|
D---H---H-----------|---H---H-----------|
g----------0-----0--|----------0-----0--|
   I M T M T I M T     I M T M T I M T

Mirek

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/11/2010 22:57:26

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/12/2010:  05:33:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Foggy Mountain Breakdown - Em chord for Scruggs-style 5-string banjo:

D----------2-----2--|----------2-----2--|
B----0---0-----0----|----0---0-----0----|
G--3^4-3^4---4------|--3^4-3^4---4------|
D---H---H-----------|---H---H-----------|
g-------------------|-------------------|
   T I T I M T I M     T I T I M T I M

Tony Trischka variation

Tony showed me this organic lick back in the late 80s and I practiced it religiously. It's extremely satisfying to play on 5-string and has a parallel contour to the quintessential FMB 5-string banjo lick invented by Earl - you know - the true one.

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Mirek wrote: "Thank you, Tom, it is a good variation. It is also one of those licks referred by me in the initial post...."

Quite right, Mirek, it's a GREAT 5-string lick, with much THANKS TO TONY TRISCHKA for inventing it, and that is why I brought it up. Of course, there are correspondences between the roll patterns on the two instruments, but they wouldn't produce the same notes or convey the same tone or overall sound – what people hear.

In reality, can we be talking about the same “lick” if they don’t function the same way and sound exactly the same on the two instruments – I’d say, um let me think hard about this: NO! We're talking apples and oranges.

Thank you for your careful replies and calculated examples, assiduously mapped out in tab, as per usual.

The ringiness of a 5-string banjo, what makes it sound like the 5-string banjo in bluegrass has much to do with G tuning and the open strings ringing out. You can't get that same exact ring playing out of closed positions on a tenor, without sympathetically ringing strings, the fifth string, or if you have to play out of blocked positions to get the same notes as a 5-string, played on open strings, so there is qualitative difference in timbre and tone between the two instruments. String tension and scale length also matter.

I posted Trischka's original 5-string lick (which anticipated your recent parallel pattern in DGdg tenor) not because it's the same lick, but because it's the same pattern played across three strings - strings that have different tensions, different quality of sound – being tuned differently of course.

Please reply to these twelve questions to help folks understand the goals of your thread topic – not so obvious, I reckon, to folks who’ve never heard of "Patek-style" before. Maybe you can shed light on the following in a forthcoming and useful manner:

(1) What is the attraction of Patek-style tenor banjo?

(2) In borrowing licks and phrases from bluegrass 5-string and altering them (whichever ways you do it) to find the same note sequences (more or less) on DGdg tenor banjo tuned, would it logically follow that the tenor banjo could hypothetically be used in bluegrass, fulfilling the same basic "role" (pun intended) as the ubiquitous 5-string banjo?

(3) Could a tenor banjo easily substitute for a 5-string banjo in a bluegrass band working the festival circuit?

(4) Could a tenor banjo player be accepted in the same as a 5-string player, or possibly moreso, by hardcore fans and followers of bluegrass at festivals?

(5) If so, could original Patek-style tenor banjo catch on in bluegrass, attracting fans and spawning imitators to this style?

(6) In your estimation would Patek-style banjo more likely attract current tenor or 5-string players?

(7) Likewise, might Patek-style tenor banjo be the wave of the future for fingerstyle tenor banjo – not restricted to bluegrass, but in jazz, classical, etc., spawning interpreters, exegetes and stylists in the same way that 5-string banjo has branched out in so many directions and genres?

(8) Do you think many experienced 5-string players would be willing to put down their beloved 5-string banjos, pick up the tenor instead and adopt your approach in order to play traditional bluegrass (or any other style of music)?

(9) Can you see a day when 5-string banjo is significantly influenced by Patek-style DGdg tenor banjo played fingerstyle-clawhammer?

(10) Do you think bluegrass banjo fans would be more impressed with you playing tried-and-true bluegrass patterns, licks and tunes on (A) the 5-string banjo, or (B) the tenor banjo?

(11) Would you describe Patek-style banjo as being more of an “original” or “derivative” style of playing the TENOR banjo, or a bit of both?

(12) Lastly, in this thread who is your specific target audience in conveying your tabs and carefully crafted examples?

Thank you in advance.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/12/2010 19:52:59

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/12/2010:  08:47:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

(1) What is the attraction of Patek-style tenor banjo?

(2) In borrowing licks and phrases from bluegrass 5-string and altering them (whichever ways you do it) to find the same note sequences (more or less) on DGdg tenor banjo tuned, would it logically follow that the tenor banjo could hypothetically be used in bluegrass, fulfilling the same basic "role" (pun intended) as the ubiquitous 5-string banjo?

(3) Could a tenor banjo easily substitute for a 5-string banjo in a bluegrass band working the festival circuit?

(4) Could a tenor banjo player be accepted in the same as a 5-string player, or possibly moreso, by hardcore fans and followers of bluegrass at festivals?

(5) If so, could original Patek-style tenor banjo catch on in bluegrass, attracting fans and spawning imitators to this style?

(6) In your estimation would Patek-style banjo more likely attract current tenor or 5-string players?

(7) Likewise, might Patek-style tenor banjo be the wave of the future for fingerstyle tenor banjo – not restricted to bluegrass, but in jazz, classical, etc., spawning interpreters, exegetes and stylists in the same way that 5-string banjo has branched out in so many directions and genres?

(8) Do you think many experienced 5-string players would be willing to put down their beloved 5-string banjos, pick up the tenor instead and adopt your approach in order to play traditional bluegrass (or any other style of music)?

(9) Can you see a day when 5-string banjo is significantly influenced by Patek-style DGdg tenor banjo played fingerstyle-clawhammer?

(10) Do you think bluegrass banjo fans would be more impressed with you playing tried-and-true bluegrass patterns, licks and tunes on (A) the 5-string banjo, or (B) the tenor banjo?

(11) Would you describe Patek-style banjo as being more of an “original” or “derivative” style of playing the TENOR banjo, or a bit of both?

(12) Lastly, in this thread who is your specific target audience in conveying your tabs and carefully crafted examples?

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Again, well prepared set of questions, Tom. I am sure you have had to answer similar set to yourself when you started to play Irish and Celtic traditional reels, jigs etc. on your 5-string banjo instead of flatpicked tenor banjo, which is (according to my understanding) idiomatic for that genre.

In more than half of your questions you use the term "bluegrass" without defining it. It is clear that the definition differs in different people's minds. For those people who define bluegrass as the music played (among other instruments) on 5-string banjo dominantly in Scruggs style, of course - per definition - fingerstyle tenor banjo is out of the game even if it is retuned to open G tuning DGdg with the same range of strings and with the option (but not necessity) to play high g string as a drone. For those people who do not literally include the "5-string" banjo into the definition of their understanding of bluegrass, fingerstyle DGdg tenor banjo might have a chance as I can replicate some part of Scruggs sound including the most repeated lick:

Scruggs:
d----0-----0-----0-|---
B------------------|---
G--0-----2s4-0-----|-0-
D--------------2p0-|---
g------0-----------|---
   T M T I M I T M   T

Patek:
g------0-----------|---
d----0-----0-----0-|---
G--0-----2s4-0-----|-0-
D--------------2p0-|---
   T I M T M I T I   T

Generally, my primary task is to explore what can be played on fingerstyle tenor banjo tuned to open G tuning DGdg (or "low bass" tuning CGdg). That includes but it is not limited to three finger rolling.

Mirek

P.S. On my first banjo truss rod cover I had the engraving TENORGRASS.

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Edited by - Mirek Patek on 02/12/2010 23:11:53

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/12/2010:  11:51:50

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Mirek - Are you not familiar with the Dubliners and the iconic Irish singer Luke Kelly? He is emblematic of Irish folk music culture - a national hero - who always carried his 5-string banjo with him, recorded with the massively successful Dubliners on his 5-string, and always played his 5-string banjo on stage, all across Europe and abroad.

Luke Kelly, one of Ireland’s own, points out Irish clawhammer banjoist Bill Whelan, has a bronze statue being erected to him Dublin – not holding a tenor banjo, which he didn’t play, but a 5-string banjo. If 5-string-wielding Luke Kelly isn’t “idiomatic” enough among Irish traditional musicians, please tell me who is then? Kermit the frog? (He wore green but I think he played a tenor.)

Mirek, interestingly, the International Bluegrass Music Association (IBMA) is careful not to define bluegrass or get trapped in fruitless debates about what it "is". Ask Dan Hays at IBMA if you don't believe this. I know what he'll say because I've had long conversations with him about this. It's mere "rhetoric" to steer the thread in this direction (defining bluegrass) and yet it doesn't answer the questions that many are probably asking (not just me).

You can change the subject if you want, but it doesn’t explain what YOU do. Your techniques/methods/goals and mine are quite different, even if we play similar roll patterns and the same tunes at times. I need not go into the long and varied history of the 5-string banjo in Irish music because it is not your thread topic. I have written on it extensively on BHO and elsewhere.

I found a very old Irish and Celtic tradition on 5-string, even preceding the arrival of the tenor banjo, and made all kinds of neat discoveries years ago when I researched and authored Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo. It has gone through several editions and binding formats, and it is still a popular seller for Mel Bay, now with a companion CD that comes the book, keeping the price down. Mel Bay knows what they’re doing and I am blessed to have them in my corner.



Mirek, I am not a passive holder of tradition, copying or adapting others' works; I also compose tunes, contributing new material to the Celtic tradition, and I play my tunes at sessions. Find one of these on the myspace: Horizon Hornpipe.

I feel blessed to be doing something that I love for a living, now being distributed through UNIVERSAL, including Horizon Hornpipe, an original Celtic tune that I recorded in Nashville, also with Mark Schatz playing clawhammer banjo. Feel free to peruse my blog on the myspace above or go to my homepage for the Bill Keith review, which explains my earliest contribution to the Irish and Celtic traditions.

Who is your audience Mirek? I’m the only one who has written anything so far, besides yourself. I respect your work and I know you are a gifted and dedicated player. This is YOUR thread.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/13/2010 01:05:04

Thor - Posted - 02/12/2010:  12:29:25

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I've been fascinated by Mirek's style since he first posted about it.

I'm always interested when musicians experiment, and I'm especially interested in all things banjo.

It's said that necessity is the mother of invention, and this is a prime example of this. Mirek wanted to emulate a bluegrass banjo sound, but only had a tenor banjo-- therefore, he chose an interesting way to tune it, and worked on right-hand patterns to achieve his goal. Sounds cool to me.

I don't think I've ever seen him advocating this style as a replacement for a 5-string bluegrass banjo, or seen him calling for all the tenor players to don fingerpicks... (questions 2 through 9).

I'm generally not really interested in trying to put things into little labeled boxes... so the answers to most of the questions brought up here don't interest me, personally. *shrug*

Seems like asking John Popper, "Dude, why play all that stuff you do on a 10-hole when you can just get a chromatic harp?"
I suspect his answer might be, "Because I can."

I inherited a couple tenor banjos, but don't really have much interest in learning how to play them as tenors-- so they sit in the closet. I'd consider tuning them as Mirek does just to screw around with, though. If/when I do, I'll definitely dig into Mirek's tabs and videos for sure (question 12).

I composed a banjo tune using just the 4 long strings, because I thought it was cool that Scott Vestal had done this (his "In Pursuit of Happiness"). Of course I did this in G tuning, not DGdg, but I thought the results were pretty cool. If you gave Scott V. a tenor tuned to open G he'd be able to play "In Pursuit of Happiness" on it... but that wouldn't make him a tenor banjo player.


Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
~Lazarus Long

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/12/2010:  19:36:33

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Thor wrote:

"I don't think I've ever seen him advocating this style as a replacement for a 5-string bluegrass banjo, or seen him calling for all the tenor players to don fingerpicks... (questions 2 through 9)."

Fair enough, but I found your statement rather inchoate if it's based on questions 2 and 9. Mirek has chosen this thread title. He's man enough to handle it.

Mirek Patek - Posted - 02/12/2010:  23:18:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Thor wrote:

"I don't think I've ever seen him advocating this style as a replacement for a 5-string bluegrass banjo, or seen him calling for all the tenor players to don fingerpicks... (questions 2 through 9)."

Fair enough, but I found your statement rather inchoate if it's based on questions 2 and 9. Mirek has chosen this thread title. He's man enough to handle it.

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I have changed the thread title back to the original one I wrote at the beginning (as far as I can remember) as it better describes the content of the discussion.

Mirek

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/13/2010:  01:13:13

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Mirek, now that you've changed the thread title again - I've lost count - a word to the wise:

Know your audience.

boyratchet - Posted - 02/13/2010:  01:39:05

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Really taking the piss here Tom.

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Edited by - boyratchet on 02/13/2010 01:40:20

Thor - Posted - 02/13/2010:  03:24:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Thor wrote:

"I don't think I've ever seen him advocating this style as a replacement for a 5-string bluegrass banjo, or seen him calling for all the tenor players to don fingerpicks... (questions 2 through 9)."

Fair enough, but I found your statement rather inchoate if it's based on questions 2 and 9.

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"Inchoate"? heheh. I'm sorry that you found my statement unclear, formless, or lacking in some way, but my statement wasn't "based on questions 2 and 9"... I said: "questions 2 through 9". Let me try clarify my statement for you:

I don't think I've ever seen (Mirek) him advocating this style as a replacement for a 5-string bluegrass banjo, or seen him (Mirek) calling for all the tenor players to don fingerpicks... as Tom Hanway seems to imply (or for some reason wants to believe) by the repetitive (and in my opinion pointless) content of his questions 2 through 9.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Mirek has chosen this thread title. He's man enough to handle it.

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Huh? "man enough to handle" what, exactly?

Here's my simplified synopsis of this thread (separating the wheat from the chaff):

Question: "Mirek, why have you chosen to emulate the sound of bluegrass banjo on a 4 stringed instument?"

Answer: "Because I like the sound of bluegrass banjo, only had a tenor and wanted to see if it would be possible."

Alternate answer: "Why not?"

</end of thread>

It seemed that Mirek started the thread to address specific questions that Tom H. had about what he was doing-- which Mirek did a nice job of in his first post, imo.

Tom H then, instead of just saying "Hmm.. this endeavor seems kind of pointless to me, but whatever, have fun with it." introduces a long list of questions all of which are somehow based on the (in my view, baseless) notion that Mirek somehow wants to convert everyone to playing bluegrass on a 4 string, or on the (in my view, equally baseless) notion that Mirek thinks that his style is superior to bluegrass on a 5-string.

This is what is known as a "straw man" argument. So as to avoid inchoateness:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

My post specifically referred to Tom's second straw man attempt-- his list of 12 questions.

Much credit to Mirek for not rising to the bait.

quote:

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Originally posted by boyratchet

Really taking the piss here Tom.

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*chuckles* That's an even better thread synopsis.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/13/2010:  05:27:32

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I was going somewhere else with this because I'm using Mirek's ideas to play tenor banjo with a guitar sensibility in mind. I have my grandfather's Van Eps from 1918. I'm a Travis-picking and country blues guitar player, and I was going to get to that with a new batch of questions. I love alternate tunings. But maybe you have all the answers Thor. Taking the p.ss, of course I was, but the questions remain unanswered.

I believe these are all fair questions and provocative - so what - but they cannot be like Thor's "straw man" argument if posed as questions - and so it is Thor that seems to be running interference for Mirek, who doesn't need his help in replying, being a grown man.

Deeming honest questions a "straw man" IS a straw man, but I understand the motivation because I am not indifferent to what Mirek is attempting. Believe me, I care, or I wouldn't bother me a*** posting at all. Mirek, do think about these and don't let others speak for you - who can't really. Don't run away Mirek! You're onto something good!

I wouldn't expect answers overnight, but there may be value in dealing with these types of questions now, in order to convey your approach to others:

(1) What is the attraction of Patek-style tenor banjo?

(2) In borrowing licks and phrases from bluegrass 5-string and altering them (whichever ways you do it) to find the same note sequences (more or less) on DGdg tenor banjo tuned, would it logically follow that the tenor banjo could hypothetically be used in bluegrass, fulfilling the same basic "role" (pun intended) as the ubiquitous 5-string banjo?

(3) Could a tenor banjo easily substitute for a 5-string banjo in a bluegrass band working the festival circuit?

(4) Could a tenor banjo player be accepted in the same as a 5-string player, or possibly moreso, by hardcore fans and followers of bluegrass at festivals?

(5) If so, could original Patek-style tenor banjo catch on in bluegrass, attracting fans and spawning imitators to this style?

(6) In your estimation would Patek-style banjo more likely attract current tenor or 5-string players?

(7) Likewise, might Patek-style tenor banjo be the wave of the future for fingerstyle tenor banjo – not restricted to bluegrass, but in jazz, classical, etc., spawning interpreters, exegetes and stylists in the same way that 5-string banjo has branched out in so many directions and genres?

(8) Do you think many experienced 5-string players would be willing to put down their beloved 5-string banjos, pick up the tenor instead and adopt your approach in order to play traditional bluegrass (or any other style of music)?

(9) Can you see a day when 5-string banjo is significantly influenced by Patek-style DGdg tenor banjo played fingerstyle-clawhammer?

(10) Do you think bluegrass banjo fans would be more impressed with you playing tried-and-true bluegrass patterns, licks and tunes on (A) the 5-string banjo, or (B) the tenor banjo?

(11) Would you describe Patek-style banjo as being more of an “original” or “derivative” style of playing the TENOR banjo, or a bit of both?

(12) Lastly, in this thread who is your specific target audience in conveying your tabs and carefully crafted examples?

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/13/2010 05:36:44