|
Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link.
beezaboy - Posted - 02/04/2010: 03:50:55
This is Serial Number 1073.
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT
(I confess: I'm the guy who wrote for the serial number)
Probably early 1950's?
Why on earth did Gretsch make Banjo Mandolins after WWII?
(I have 0067 which I purchased as a curiosity).
From what I have read the Banjo Mandolin faded into oblivion
in the 1930's. What were the folks at 60 Broadway, Brooklyn
thinking in ca. 1950 when they made this instrument???
PS: Polle Flaunoe Alert!!
Not many MandoBanjos listed in your Gretsch/Bacon database. Here's one...AND
This one could get two entries since it is in two pieces 
Cottonmouth - Posted - 02/04/2010: 08:51:14
The pot might make a nice transition to a tenor banjo for Celtic music.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/05/2010: 02:25:42
John,
Iīve included the MB in the database - with you as the reference - LOL!
Regarding the existing/non-existing demand for mandobanjos in the 50s - why didnīt Gibson forsee the later demand for flattop OPF 5-string banjos back in the 30s? LOL!!!!!!!!!!
They should have built and put away 10,000 examples back then - that would on a long-time basis have turned up as an indeed very fine investment. LOL!
Lesson to be learned - donīt follow the present market!
Kindly regards
Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:12:41
Yes, of course...now I see.
Since Bill Monroe played the mandolin and mandolin popularity
had begun to increase due to his efforts and virtuosity, Gretsch
figured that demand for banjo mandolins would increase as it had
back in 1910 during the mandolin craze of that era. Oops, you
seldom see a banjo-mandolin in a bluegrass ensemble.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 06:50:06
Hi Beeze-
Thanks!
That's a VERY interesting banjo... Has a GRETSCH peghead overlay, with a
Groton fingerboard.
And that case is a typical 1930s Bacon case. (One cannever really assume a case
is original to the banjo... but... MB cases are somewhat rare.)
I would put this on on the OTHER side of the fence -- and call it
a GRETSCH-made transitional piece.
Have to ponder it a bit more...
Best-
Ed Britt
beezaboy - Posted - 02/08/2010: 09:52:22
Ed:
My Gretsch B&D Senorita Banjo Mandolin 0067 has a pearloid board
but just tiny red dots for postion markers not the fancy hieroglyphics (sic)
on this ebay board. The headstock on the ebay model is different from my 0067. The ebay headstock is wider and at the very top is a "U". At the very top of 0067 is more of a "V". Furthermore, the design on the pearloid board on my Gretsch Senorita tenor banjo 0116 is different from the ebay board as well. But, the case for banjo mandolin 0067 is identical to the ebay case - brown with maroon interior...case compartment, etc.
You would think 0067 would predate 1073.
But maybe Gretsch had some left over Bacon banjo mandolin necks and boards
and ran off a batch...some with old parts some with new parts???
But as you know so well from being thrust into the Gretsch/Bacon
serial number mystery, anything was possible with Gretsch serial numbers.
John
PS If you decide this is truly a "transitional" Bacon to Gretsch banjo, Polle will have to re-do his database!!!
Edited by - beezaboy on 02/08/2010 09:55:03
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/08/2010: 10:42:46
A revelation I had while charting the Gretsch serial number methodology and system(s) for guitars, was that after the Brooklyn factory got back on it's feet around 1947, they started the primary sequential serial number system over again (#001). That fact has created great confusion within the vintage guitar community, as the assumption by many was that the pre-war models were on the same sequential system as the post-war. That said... if the factory did the same thing on the banjo side, it might explain how a Banjo Mandoline with serial #0067 was made after one with the number #1073.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 13:30:18
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Ed:
.... But maybe Gretsch had some left over Bacon banjo mandolin necks and boards
and ran off a batch...some with old parts some with new parts???...
...PS If you decide this is truly a "transitional" Bacon to Gretsch banjo, Polle will have to re-do his database!!!
Hi John -- Yes, that's exactly what I think. Gretsch was making a "floor-sweep" made from salvaged Groton-made parts. Possibly even during, or after, WWII. BUT.. and here is the issue --- That's a GRETSCH serial -- It's NOT a Bacon serial. And I'll bet it does NOT have the "Made by ... Groton" stamp on it. (You should have it for your NYC collection...) No need for Polle to change his database. My position is: 1. That there ARE "transitional" Bacon banjos -- assembled and finished AFTER the hurricane from parts, made in Groton, BEFORE the hurricane. Those parts were then sent to Gretsch, to finish-out as Bacon/B&D banjos (under DLD's approval). They were then stamped WITH Bacon Serial Number digits, and stamped with "Made by". (In effect, as DLD's seal OF his approval.) They ARE Bacon Banjo Co. Products! (Same as the guitars they had Regal make for them.) 2. I remain skeptical that any "transitional" banjos exist, that were made totally by Gretsch -- which ALSO carry the correct Groton serial digit stamps, AND the "Made by..." stamp. 3. Any Bacon-style Banjos which were made completely by Gretsch, AFTER they bought the rights to the Bacon tradenames, and patents -- are "transitional" GRETSCH products -- and DO NOT carry the Groton markings of: . . o the correct digit stamps on rim AND dowel. . . o the "Made By" stamp. Gretsch bought the RIGHTS to Bacon's trade names, designs, patents, parts, tooling, etc. They did NOT buy the actual corporation (which would have included it's real estate -- and its debts, and other liabilities...) "The Bacon Banjo Company, Incorporated" was finally dissolved, some time after 1943, when Day finally sold the Groton property. So Gretsch legally could not use the "Made by The Bacon Banjo Co., Inc. Groton, Conn" stamp. Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/08/2010 14:02:49
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 13:57:35
quote:
Originally posted by Gretsch NY
A revelation I had while charting the Gretsch serial number methodology and system(s) for guitars, was that after the Brooklyn factory got back on it's feet around 1947, they started the primary sequential serial number system over again (#001). That fact has created great confusion within the vintage guitar community, as the assumption by many was that the pre-war models were on the same sequential system as the post-war. That said... if the factory did the same thing on the banjo side, it might explain how a Banjo Mandoline with serial #0067 was made after one with the number #1073.
Hi Ed (G-NY) -- I've always felt that Gretsch MIGHT have made a few dozen banjos before the War -- but doubt that they made very many. I seem to remember reading about them reorganizing the factory in the late-30s or early'40s. So I figured the last thing they needed to do, was to start producing a new line of banjos, in the middle of it. I've always felt that they really didn't start serious Bacon producton untill AFTER the war. It was hard enough to get certain types of wood, and finishes, during the War... much less parts made of BRASS. Have you seen the Serial dating list I did on Mugwumps? (I've got to revise it, sometime.) mugwumps.com/BaconSerialNumbers.htmlWhen I wrote it, back in 2003, I based the 1940 to 1966 parts on typical Gretsch guitar info available at that time. It seemed to fit what I was seeing on the banjos... and it still seems that way, for the most part. (Mike H. added the "1950s/60s" section about the "Bacon Folk Models". It's wrong, and I don't agree with it. But haven't had a chance to correct it for him, yet. The 1966 to 1972 stuff, I know pretty well -- due to my work on ODE and Baldwin banjos. I'm interested to see if you generally agree with it, or not -- based on your more-recent guitar knowledge. Best- Ed Britt
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/08/2010: 15:14:37
Hello Ed,
In the short time I've been working on this banjo project I've found serial number evidence that both supports and bebunks the notion that the Gretsch branded banjo's used the same serial number system. On the guitar side I've determined that the American Orchestra line of acoustic archtops ('33 - WWII) used a different system than the Synchromatic line ('39 - late 40's). The current theory I'm pursuing on the banjo stuff is that perhaps Gretsch did the same thing, applying different sequential systems for the Orchestrella, New Yorker and Broadkaster (to name a few) respectively. The fact that these could run concurrently might be a reason the Gretsch banjo's serial number are accused of being so screwed up. Just a thought... and it should be easy enough to test.
I have found the mid-60's Gretsch branded banjos do utilize the date-coded system that Baldwin installed, which is consistent with the guitar approach. I have a ton of updated information about the Gretsch guitar serial numbering scheme in my book, but much of that is focused on the period when they began producing batches of guitars (around 1950), so perhaps less relavent to banjos.
amazon.com/History-Legendary-G...65&sr=1-2
beezaboy - Posted - 02/08/2010: 16:28:46
quote:
[quote]2. I remain skeptical that any "transitional" banjos exist, that were made totally by Gretsch --
which ALSO carry the correct Groton serial digit stamps, AND the "Made by..." stamp.
Assuming Polle's database is correct my Seville #35656 was made in 1939. Therefore, it had to have been made by Gretsch. Seville #35656 has the Groton stamp on the dowel and the serial number on the dowell and shell. Is the thinking that all of the component parts for Seville #35656 were made initially in Groton and shipped to Brooklyn for assembly? Apparently there are Bacon banjos made by Gretsch with some parts from Gretsch and other parts from Groton. These banjos would carry only the dowel serial number. Perhaps the ebay banjo mandolin is one of them. Here's the thing that "people" (mostly folks advertising a paricular Gretsch/Bacon banjo for sale) assert. That the subject Gretsch/Bacon (with only the dowel serial number stamp) was made with parts from the Groton Bacon factory after the disaster and therefore, by implication, it is a better banjo that those that are purely Gretsch made with purely Gretsch parts and workmanship. Here is an example: buddysbanjos.com/detail.asp?IID=45The assertion made in this ad (and several others I have seen) is one of the reasons (at least for me) concerning the discussion about "Transitional" Gretsch/Bacons. Everyone agrees that Groton Bacon banjos are superior to Gretsch/Bacon banjos. But, there obviously exists a third category in the minds of some that certain Bacon branded banjos ("transitional") made in Brooklyn are also superior to pure Gretsch/Bacons because they have Bacon parts.
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/08/2010: 19:14:00
A quick check of the Gretsch catalog No.50 (1948-9) confirms that the Bacon Senorita was still being offered in the Banjo Mandolin format, model x6567 ($100).
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 23:15:28
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
quote:
2. I remain skeptical that any "transitional" banjos exist, that were made totally by Gretsch --
which ALSO carry the correct Groton serial digit stamps, AND the "Made by..." stamp.
Assuming Polle's database is correct my Seville #35656 was made in 1939. Therefore, it had to have been made by Gretsch. Seville #35656 has the Groton stamp on the dowel and the serial number on the dowell and shell. Is the thinking that all of the component parts for Seville #35656 were made initially in Groton and shipped to Brooklyn for assembly?...
Hi Beeze- I don't believe Gretsch actually "made" any significant parts (especially metal) for Bacon, in 1938-39. This is a case where the semantics of "made" (or "make") ARE important. Gretsch certainly assembled banjos for The Bacon Co. in 1938-39 -- from Bacon's own parts. But it's my studied opinion that Gretsch did NOT make any new banjos (from raw materials) for Bacon. When some new, trustworthy information finally comes to light, refuting my opinion -- I'll be most happy to concede it. Until then, I'll maintain it. My opinion -- based on the ones I've seen -- is that the c1938-'39 POST-hurricane, "Made By" Bacon banjos appear to assembled primarily of: . . . o Groton-made wood parts . . . o metal parts from Groton's standard vendors . . . o decorative work by Groton's standard engraving vendors. I DO feel that some of the necks and rims may have been "in-the-white" -- completely shaped, but not lacquered, yet. In that case, Gretsch would have done final sanding, prep, staining/shading, lacquering, rub-out, and buffing, etc. quote:
... Apparently there are Bacon banjos made by Gretsch with some parts from Gretsch
and other parts from Groton. These banjos would carry only the dowel serial number. Perhaps
the ebay banjo mandolin is one of them. ...
I assume it probably has only has the Gretsch serial number -- and only on the dowel. quote:
...Here's the thing that "people" (mostly folks advertising a paricular Gretsch/Bacon banjo for sale) assert. That the subject Gretsch/Bacon (with only the dowel serial number stamp) was made with parts from the Groton Bacon factory after the disaster and therefore, by implication, it is a better banjo that those that are purely Gretsch made with purely Gretsch parts and workmanship.
Here is an example:
buddysbanjos.com/detail.asp?IID=45
The assertion made in this ad (and several others I have seen) is one of the reasons
(at least for me) concerning the discussion about "Transitional" Gretsch/Bacons. ...
The information WE are discussing is not, and has not (in the recent past) been "common knowledge" for ebay sellers, players, dealers, collectors, etc. -- UNTIL we began these series of "Bacon" topics on the BHO. What ebay sellers, players, dealers, collectors, etc. say or write -- is somewhat irrelevant, if it's based on faulty information and hearsay. Which, by default, is all that really exists, "out there" concerning Bacon. (Buddy is a friend. He's VERY knowledgeable, and I'm not disparaging him in any way. But he doesn't have some of this info, yet, either. We were supposed to get together, this past summer, to do that...) My OWN assumptions, deductions, and conclusions about all of this, are based on gathering small tidbits of very scarce information -- in my 30 years of studying David Day, and the banjos he was responsible for producing. It is still a work-in- progress, and it will no doubt change -- as new information, and instruments, come to light. So, my opinions expressed here, today -- could easily change, tomorrow.  quote:
... Everyone agrees that Groton Bacon banjos are superior to Gretsch/Bacon banjos.
But, there obviously exists a third category in the minds of some that certain Bacon
branded banjos ("transitional") made in Brooklyn are also superior to pure Gretsch/
Bacons because they have Bacon parts.
Yes, that is essentially true. But... there is also a FOURTH, more important, Transitional category: Banjos finished, and assembled, by Gretsch -- FOR DAVID L. DAY -- using Groton-made parts, which also: . . . 1. Have the Serial number stamped on both the Dowel AND on the Rim -- . . . . . . using the original Groton digit stamps. . . . 2. Have the "Made by ... Bacon ... Groton ..." stamp on the dowel, as well. Beeze, I apologize if I seem testy over this. It's very late (early actually) and I'm tired and cranky. But these "distinctions" are important, if we want our detective-work to be valid. The one truth I've found in my years of studying banjo history: . . . The more you know... the more you realize just how much you DON'T know. And it can be summed-up with one word: "Maybe." Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/09/2010 04:34:43
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/08/2010: 23:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gretsch NY
A quick check of the Gretsch catalog No.50 (1948-9) confirms that the Bacon Senorita was still being offered in the Banjo Mandolin format, model x6567 ($100).
The Senorita was the longest-running B&D model. It was continually cataloged, from its intro, c1929 -- to the final discontinuance of the the entire Bacon line, in 1972. The trick is to study the decoration and construction details, to try to determine when various change-overs and the introduction of various features took place. With the caveat that older photos were often still used AFTER changes occurred. Older photos were also often re-touched to update them to show the new changes, or even to be used as "vapor-ware" -- to introduce a new model, in a catalog, BEFORE the production models were actually finished. Bacon did this, several times, back in the early-20s. Baldwin did a few in the early 1970s. Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/09/2010 04:47:36
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/09/2010: 04:24:47
John, Ed & Others,
I consider the database
acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html
our common/mutual property - Iīm only the maintainer for now - Iīll revise it, when ever new or better infos do pop up.
Do remember, that itīs a general database - it does not include the many different minor changes/details as found on f.ex. the pre-Day banjos.
In the next version Iīm going to include links to Carl Baronīs and maybe Achim Hippenstielīs personal databases plus maybe other sources - all B&D/Bacon owners/lovers etc. can then get access to the for now best possible infos about their beloved ones.
Iīm shortly going to incorporate Achim Hippenstielīs huge database in the general database - however there are some minor details and conflicts between his and Carlīs datas, that will have to be cleared out at first hand.
Kindly regards
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 02/09/2010 04:33:43
beezaboy - Posted - 02/09/2010: 05:42:24
Ed:
Thank you. I did not think testy. I thought this was the most clear and pointed
statement about the Gretsch/Bacon association we've had to date and more fully
explains why the Bacon stamp with dual serial number stamp is distinguished from the single serial number stamp from Gretsch (and the whole process in between).
I hope others appreciate your information as much as I. It's 2010 and we have a better understanding of the Bacon to Gretsch transition now than in entire decades before us.
Polle:
Thanks again. Your database has inspired these discussions and with it
we know so much more about the Bacon to Gretsch transition than ever before.
And, that probably was not your intent for starting the database in the first place ...you just wanted to see all the "ladies" from Groton!
John
beezaboy - Posted - 02/09/2010: 07:57:20
A Summary (after a moment of pondering):
There are three (3) categories of Bacon (or "B&D") branded banjos
completed in Brooklyn, N.Y. by the Fred Gretsch Manufacturing Company:
I. Banjos assembled by Gretsch comprised totally of parts from the
Bacon Groton factory and/or from Bacon's parts suppliers. These banjos
can be identified by the serial number which is a continuation of the
Bacon serial number sequence stamped both on the interior shell
and on the dowel together with a dowel stamp identifying the banjo
as made by The Bacon Banjo Company, Inc. Groton, Ct. These banjos
were manufactured afterthe hurricane in 1938 and in 1939 and perhaps
a few months into 1940. The "Made by Bacon..." stamp may have been
intended to indicate that the banjos were made under the supervision
of David Day and as an attestation of continued Bacon quality. The Flaunoe database unequivocally identifies these banjos as Bacon banjos [not Gretsch/Bacon "transitional" banjos].
II. Banjos assembled by Gretsch that are comprised of some or all parts
from the Bacon Groton factory constructed by the Gretsch workforce.
These banjos can be identified by a non-sequential serial number stamped only on the dowel. There are no other stamp marks. These banjos were manufactured after Gretsch acquired the tangible and intangible assets of The Bacon Banjo Company, Inc. in or about April, 1940. Only a party knowledgeable about the source of the parts comprising the subject banjo can authoritatively authenticate a banjo in this class. The Flaunoe database identifies these banjos as "Gretsch's
1940-1968" and co-mingles them with banjos in class III.
III. Bacon (B&D) banjos designed and constructed entirely by the Fred
Gretsch Manufacturing Company, 60 Broadway, Brooklyn, N.Y. consisting
entirely of Gretsch (or their suppliers) component parts by Gretsch workforce.
These banjos can be identified by the single serial number stamped on the dowel and occasionally with an addtional stamp "A Gretsch Product". These banjos
are identified in the Flaunoe database as "Gretsch' 1940-1968" and were constructed during that time frame. This line of banjos can be found in the 1948
Gretsch catalog entitled "The Famous Bacon B&D Banjos" that depicts a
Bacon 'Senorita' ($100); Bacon 'Serenader' ($175) and; Bacon 'Symphonie ($275).
The ebay banjo mandolin is a Class II:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT
The Wachter banjo may be a Class II or a Class III - Only a knowledgeable
person could make the distinction.
buddysbanjos.com/detail.asp?IID=45
Hopefully, the foregoing is an accurate summary. I'm only the secretary.
John
Edited by - beezaboy on 02/09/2010 07:58:55
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/09/2010: 08:52:36
Cool... so when's the book coming out? 8^)
beezaboy - Posted - 02/09/2010: 15:01:19
Just to be thorough I sent another email to the Senorita banjo-mandolin
seller and asked if there were any further imprints or stamps on the banjo.
Sorry to be a pest but the fretboard and headstock overlay are intriguing.
Are there anymore stamps inside the banjo other than the serial number? Might be a "made by" stamp somewhere inside. Is this serial number just stamped once? If so, is the serial number just stamped on the dowel? Is there a serial number also stamped on the wood shell inside?
Thanks, this is it for me...no more questions!!
The seller, Dan, responded that only stamp is serial number on dowel.
I took it apart again and couldn't see anything else. The serial number is on the square piece of wood that runs down the center. I assume that is the dowel. I'm used to round dowels. Thanks, Dan
Therefore, this is a Gretsch B&D Senorita made after early 1940 with a Groton B&D
fretboard and perhaps additional Groton B&D parts.
Truly, a Class II !!
_________________________________________________________
From Ed Britt:
quote:
The one truth I've found in my years of studying banjo history:
. . . The more you know... the more you realize just how much you DON'T know.
And it can be summed-up with one word: "Maybe."
Edited by - beezaboy on 02/09/2010 15:02:31
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/09/2010: 23:02:36
Beeze --
Excellent posts. I've been busy with other stuff all day. Hoped to make some
additional comments tonight... but ran out of time.
Yes your Class I, II, III begins to represent the issue. (I'll try to make a few
sugestions tomorrow.)
Thanks for asking about the MB serial number... My instincts were apparently right.
Polle --
You and your database are very important to all of this. And I second Beeze's
comments about it.
Ed Ball(G-NY) --
I also haven't had a much of a chance to comment on your "Gretsch-branded"
project. I apologize for that. The neglect is not intentional.
My own focus is based specifically on the banjos made by David L. Day. That
covers, Fairbanks and Cole, Fairbanks, Vega, and Bacon.
As I've mentioned on the BHO before... I was dragged kicking and screaming
into HAVING to deal with Gretsch-made instruments -- as a way to distinguish
them FROM my main objective. (And then, Gretsch shows up again... in my
other main interest -- the banjos of Chuck Ogsbury -- from ODE thru OME.
Between Day, and Ogsbury... I'm involved in what is basically a continuous
study, covering 147 years -- from 1863 (Day's probable birth year) to today.
My understanding is that Gretsch supposedly didn't even produce a "Gretsch"
brand until the '20s. They apparently tended to produce mostly private labeled
instruments for OTHER brands. (But I do not know how true those statements
really are...)
Although... I believe the "Rex" brand was their own.
(But I don't know if that "fits" your specific interest, or not.)
In other words... Gretsch made a LOT of banjos -- but relatively FEW of them
were actually branded "Gretsch". So, you may be attempting to cultivate a
new garden in very shallow soil.
In effect, as you've described your project so far... I probably have very little info
on the instruments you are studying. And you probably have little info about the
ones I'm studying.
Gretsch was involved in ALL of them -- but we are each "filtering" the information
in different ways.
I'm glad to offer whatever help I can -- but my own knowledge in that specific area
is very limited and shallow. But you may be able to glean some info, from MY data,
that I'm not noticing. (Due to my own self-limited context.)
For instance...here's a little tidbit:
Somewhere in my files I have an ad for a DIFFERENT "Gretsch" company --in NYC --
which was advertising simultaneously with the "Fred Gretsch Co., during the 1920s.
I don't know if there is some corporate division relationship -- or if it was simply a
shirt-tail relative, starting a new business, etc.
I'll try to find that little snippet, this week.
While pondering Beeze's predicament (he's studying the banjos made in Brooklyn..)
a few things clicked. And I MAY have a new little theory to discuss, in the near future.
It will take me a week or two to look through my own data, to see if it holds true, or
not.
If it does... I'll throw it out for discussion, dissection, and desecration -- among the
group, to see how well it holds up to scrutiny.
Best-
Ed Britt
beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2010: 03:38:34
Ed Britt - Looking forward to your corrections to the Class I, II ,and III
minutes.
In the meantime - a thought....
For a tenor enthusiast Gretsch is intriguing becase of their
longevity. Not many banjo manufacturers can claim to have
survived the depression and changing musical tastes for as
long as Gretsch did. Yes, the soil is thin but it's a big field!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/10/2010: 05:19:17
Ed & John,
Iīve this morning revised the B&D/Bacon General Database a little - I do now descriebe the three B&D/Bacon "eraīs" as
Pre-Grotonīs - Grotonīs - Post-Grotonīs.
Have a look at it - acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.html
However I do miss a more correct, short description of each of the three eraīs - my english is very poor - can you (or others) come up with some short descriptions, that in the best possible way tell us about the characteristics of each era????????
Kindly regards and Thanks
Polle - The Maintainer
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/10/2010: 05:32:00
John,
If/when you draw some country border lines on a map - itīs almost impossible to include "no-mans-lands" on the map.
Thatīs why itīs almost impossible including the Class II - as named by you - B&D/Bacon banjos in a general database. I/weīll have to keep a "sharp" border line.
I hope, that youīll aggree on this - LOL!
Kindly regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/10/2010: 06:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
... For a tenor enthusiast Gretsch is intriguing becase of their
longevity. Not many banjo manufacturers can claim to have
survived the depression and changing musical tastes for as
long as Gretsch did. Yes, the soil is thin but it's a big field!
Hi Beeze- I agree with you. And I'm NOT knocking Gretsch, in general. After all, except for Martin -- I believe Gretsch is the longest-lasting fretted instrument marque in the US. Their Orchestrellas of the 1920s, are great banjos. And I've always thought the Chet Atkins electrics were way cool -- ever since I first noticed them, as a teenager. Not to mention the wonderful "catseye" Synchromatics! My comment about "thin soil" was meant for Ed Ball (G-NY) -- meaning he might have some difficulties relying JUST on "Gretsch-branded" banjos, for his study. Since even Gretsch's OWN main focus -- for POST-WWII banjos -- was elsewhere. There ARE the Gretsch-branded banjos from the '20s & '30s which DO need to be better documented. But from 1940 to 1970 there's not a lot to work with -- since the Gretsch-made Bacons were Gretsch's MAIN banjo line. From 1970 to1980, it was the Baldwin-ODEs. And prior to 1920 it was the "Rex" line. (I have a very nice Rex bowl-back mandolin...) That leaves mostly the low-end Gretsch Folk models. And even there, I think Gretsch private-labeled larger quantities of those same models under store brands for Sears, Wards, etc. Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/10/2010 06:23:38
beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2010: 08:35:45
Ed Britt:
No, I didn't think you were disparaging Gretsch. I liked the
"thin soil" line. It's another "Brittisism"...like tenor banjo built
on "Bones" of the 5-string, esp banjeaurine. I'm saving them.
Ed Ball has really energized me on Gretsch. I've been collecting
Gretsch banjos for two years (don't ask me why??) but have not
delved into the development of their line until Ball expressed an
interest.
Well, here is what I've learned (for those that care, if any) so far...
1. Good point, Ed Britt, that Gretsch's business plan was to make
banjos for others. I have a nice early Wurlitzer that was Gretsch made; another with a factory installed Guckert tone ring (Guckert was New York too).
2. Gretsch succumbed to the desire for lucre in 1924 (tenor banjo boom in full swing)when they designed and offered the Orchestrella line of "professional" banjos.
3. The "fancy" Orchestrella line was short lived and 1928 was its last year.
4. In order to serve the budget minded Gretsch offered its "American" line
ca 1926 consisting of the "Twenty-Five"; "Fifty" ; and "Seventy-Five" brands.
(I'm not going to tell you the price for each such model).
5. In October 1928 Gretsch discontinued the American line and announced
its "Broadkaster" line of banjos. These banjos have the cast shell that is so
familiar to us Gretsch observers. The line consisted of budget Broadkaster which is the pearloid peghead and fretboard model and then more fancy models B,C,D and E ($250 for gold plated E)
6. Sometime in 1930's Gretsch sneaked in the "New Yorker" model but I haven't
tied this model down yet but I have an old one in my closet.
7. The Broadkaster line, or parts of it, continued right into the 1950's but now the
New Yorker is offered as an intermediate priced banjo with the familiar (to a Gretschie) black peghead with "New Yorker" spelled vertically down the peghead.
8. Meanwhile, in 1940, Gretsch finds itself in the position of being able to acquire
the Bacon Banjo Company, Inc. intellectual property and seizes the opportunity. Here is a line with built-in consumer "good will". And so, Gretsch designs a "budget" Bacon/B&D line and offers it simultaneously with the Gretsch branded Broadkaster, New Yorker, and "super budget" (Banner Blue; Gretsch decal; unmarked) banjos.
Well, this is all a work in progress and I intend to buy a copy of Ed Ball's book when
it is released. Here, I just wanted to whet your appetites.
Gretsch Rules!
John
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/10/2010: 08:43:47
Ed Britt - Thanks so much for the insights! My obsession with Gretsch branded (only) banjo's stems from the fact that I got into this project as an off-shoot of my primary effort to de-code the Gretsch guitar serial number methodology. As you've surmised, at least some of the banjo serial #'s appear to fit the primary sequential guitar system. At this point I believe there were several times when this was the fact, and others when the Gretsch banjos used their own sequential numbering system. So this banjo project has already served to fill in some gaps in the Gretsch factory registry which I am painstakingly recreating (the original production history being lost to fire in the 70s). So anyway, that's why I'm so tunnel-visioned on the Gretsch branded stuff. I believe I actually have a solid working theory at this point!
Now... having said that, I certainly appreciate that the Brooklyn factory was churning out a lot more banjos than just the Gretsch branded stuff. I've found the information on this site about the integration of the Bacon brand to be quite interesting. "IF" it appears that some of these other branded banjos might utilize the same serial numbering systems as the Gretsch branded, I will suddenly become more interested! My assumption however, based on my experience on the guitar side, is that the factory did not apply their primary serial numbering system to non-Gretsch branded instruments (Bacon-Belmont guitars for example).
As far as the factory goes, they were a jobber for much of the early years, manufacturing instruments and distributing them under a number of trade names. Rex is one of those. In a discussion I had with Fred Gretsch last year he enlightened me to the close (incestuous) relationship they had with the Harmony Company. Interestingly enough, the very first Gretsch branded electric archtop (Electromatic) was produced in 1939, by the Kay Company.
I'm interested in knowing a bit more about the "other" Gretsch company you mentioned. Might it have been "Gretsch & Brenner"? My understanding, which is admittedly thin, is that Walter Gretsch broke away from the family business to pursue this venture, but it was relatively short lived.
Thanks again for all your perspective!
beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2010: 08:45:05
Polle:
Man, I just printed part of your database yesterday!
I use expensive 24 lb. paper in my printer.
You've got to stop revising. You're costing me a fortune.
Gretsch NY - Posted - 02/10/2010: 09:07:29
beezaboy... do not apologize for your Gretsch-centricness (I just made up a word!). Your are exactly what the Gretsch brand represents to many of the folks who covet their instruments, the rebellious few who choose to travel the road less traveled!
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/10/2010: 09:36:25
John,
Iīm recieving reports/records of "unknown" B&D banjos 5-10 times per week - I have revising the database on a daily basis.
Just wait - within some weeks/months Iīll incorporate Achim Hippenstielīs huge database (2-2,500 examples) in the general database - go buy some paper and toner now !!!!!!!!!!
Why on earth do you print out the database? Donīt you have a screen/monitor for your computer?
Regards
Polle - the wonderer
beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2010: 10:42:00
Polle:
Just old fashioned. I like the feel of paper.
I'll stop printing now that you have threatened more revisions.
Can't afford more paper and toner.
Rather buy a banjo.
A Gretsch!
John
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/11/2010: 06:28:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gretsch NY
... I'm interested in knowing a bit more about the "other" Gretsch company you mentioned. Might it have been "Gretsch & Brenner"? My understanding, which is admittedly thin, is that Walter Gretsch broke away from the family business to pursue this venture, but it was relatively short lived. ...
Hi Ed (G-NY)-- I think that might be it. I do remember it being a two-part name. I'll try to check my notes, in the next couple days. Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/11/2010 06:29:15
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/20/2010: 08:38:41
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Now here is a most unusual Gretsch B&D Senorita.
liveauctioneers.com/item/4430136
A class II??
Hi John-- That banjo sold on ebay, back in 2007 for $160. The same photos are being used for this action. (Which is over...) I've had that banjo highlighted since then because we need to get photos of it's dowel-stick. As a loosely-knit group, we need to start promoting the *requirement* of showing interior photos in any sale by individuals, dealers, auction-houses, music stores. etc. The Gibson guys have done this -- they won't consider buying one, without seeing photos of the serials on rim and resonator, the Label, etc. So most dealers, etc. will provide those photos is asked. But they should be shown without being asked. The more we push sellers to include those photos, the better we can advise people on the BHO (and elswhere) about the date and authenticity of their banjo. Beeze started this topic with the following: quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
This is Serial Number 1073.
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT
(I confess: I'm the guy who wrote for the serial number)
Probably early 1950's? ...
The combination of the photos, AND the serial number, were significant to me. And Beeze ASKED for the serial, because he knew it was IMPORTANT in identifying that mando-banjo. As we get into this "serial/dating/identification" study further I will be pressing for photos of: ... o the serials on rim and dowel -- to verify digit-stamp font, size, location, and ........... format. ... o The dowel -- to verify any OTHER identifying stamps ("made by" "Gretch Product" ............ "Made in USA", etc.) ... o The rim interior -- to verify hardware types: rim bolts, washers, neck clamps, ......... knee mutes, tonerings, etc. ... o The heel cap -- the heelcap rarely gets any wear. The peghead and fingerboard ........... engraving OFTEN get re*painted*, (when transparent stains should be used) and ...........then they are refinished. But the heelcap (if it's original) will often show what the ...........ORIGINAL celluloid finish looked like. I much prefer seeing instruments which have been "in the closet" for many years -- even if they are in poor condition. Because at least all of the finish and components haven't been messed-with in 30-40 years. Senorita #40248 is one of the instruments that made me go back and check a few others... I apologize that I still haven't had a chance to go through some older files, and check some other banjos -- before making some additional comments about the category that Beeze calls "Class II". But.. for the moment... Yes Beeze, this banjo probably would fall into your current "Class II". (And I know that will drive Polle bonkers!...)  It has that Groton machine- engraved peghead overlay -- but the dark sunburst looks like Gretsch (unless it was refinished at a later date...) The peghead shape is also "distorted" -- and was not shaped in Groton. Give me a few more days to investigate, and explain, in more detail. In the meantime... If the new owner of #40248 shows up... we need to get some clear interior photos of the serials, etc.. Create a New Topic?I also wonder if it might be a good idea to create a NEW topic, (or even 3 new topics): Called something like: Identifying Bacon/B&D Banjos -- Pre-Groton, Groton, and Post-Groton. We could start with an initial posting about the goals of the topic, then re-post some key earlier postings from previous topics. and then start adding new info, and discussing new ideas. That would centralize all of the info that we kick-around, when discussing various banjos which turn up. Hopefully, it would run for a few years... and become a compendium of our shared knowledge. It's actually similar to Beeze's topics on: ... o "The First Tenor banjo" .......... banjohangout.org/topic/157163... o The Bacon Banjo Co. .......... banjohangout.org/topic/164314BOTH of those topics have provided information which is available nowhere else on the internet. (Much like the info Joe Spann has provided on Gibson...) Maybe we even just continue this discussion in the Bacon Banjo Co. Topic... Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/20/2010 09:47:01
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/20/2010: 09:05:54
Ed & John,
quote:
And I know that will drive Polle bonkers!
Nothing like this can drive me bonkers - do f.ex. remember, that the pre-Grotons in "our" database were built totally (or maybe partly?) by many different companies. The same goes for f.ex. metal parts in the Grotons - Bacon used many different suppliers/brands. Ed - how about your new/refreshed "theory" regarding the post-Groton SNīs? Did my few disturbing comments drive you bonkers? LOL! Regards Polle
beezaboy - Posted - 02/20/2010: 09:21:29
It would be swell if sellers would photo inside of pot and
show stamps of words and figures but many sellers are not versed
in things banjoistic and most cannot even remove a resonator.
Here is a maddening listing for an upscale gretsch/bacon that I was too
lazy to write for serial number information. Note that the seller does not
even know the model name (see above). I am interested in the price it
has attained and wonder if bidders recognize it as a gretsch.
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...:MEWAX:IT
A Class III.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/20/2010: 10:25:23
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed - how about your new/refreshed "theory" regarding the post-Groton SNīs? Did my
few disturbing comments drive you bonkers? LOL!
Hi Polle -- As I posted, I'm just running behind on getting it done. So give me some more time. Your comments are sometimes opinionated (in the good sense of the word) but they are rarely "disturbing". Your meaning might sometimes get translated wrong... But I understand the difficulties of working in your non-native language. (As with my many internet discussions with Ulf Jagfors -- I will always stand behind you, and your knowledge, and try to help you work out a correct meaning.) Ulf would sometimes get a poor translation, and people would pounce on him. People would flame him for a misused word, expression, or meaning. I would simply suggest that everyone flaming Ulf for a misused word, should switch to posting in Swedish -- so that Ulf could communicate properly in HIS native lanquage.  And I would use a computer translation to make my point: Jeg vil blot foreslå, at alle flammende Ulf, for et misbrug af et ord, skal skifte til udstationering i svensk
- så Ulf kunne kommunikere ordentligt, i sit hjemland lanquage. If I suspect you have a translation problem -- I will always try to clear that up, and offer a better way to say it. The fact that WE can even communicate this way -- is wonderful (So... How's my Danish?) Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/20/2010 10:25:46
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2010: 04:31:43
Ed,
Your computer translation resulted in something best called - Nonsens! LOL!
F.ex. -- flaming Ulf -- was translated to something like "Ulf on fire".
Posting was translated to "outstationing". Etc.
So itīs better continuing with some poor english writing, I think - both mine and that of many US citizens - LOL!
BTW - itīs my impression, that the major cause for misunderstandings is a lack of sense for advanced humor at many of your fellow citizens. Iīll often try overcoming this by adding a lots of LOL!īs. LOL!
Regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2010: 04:42:38
Ed & John,
Itīs my impression, that Gretsch from the "restart" late 40s used Paramount Style tailpieces on their Symphonieīs - and that they mid 60s started using very poorly made Oettinger replicas instead.
Can any of you confirm this?
Regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2010: 05:09:34
John,
Did you notice the high ending bid for the worn Gretsch built Symphonie at eBay?
2.5 times higher than the present price level for a nice 20s Groton Silver Bell!!!!
I own 2 similar Symphonieīs - they are in my workshop now - I had the necks totally restored last year by luthier Karsten Schnoor in Hamburg, Germany - maybe I better get them finished and put up for sale now. LOL!
I wonder - why on earth are these banjos keeping such a high demand and price level? They do for sure have a fine sound and a tremendous power - but they are poorly built and not sturdy in any way - plus their playability is also very poor due to their indeed clumpy necks.
Is it all about their somehow "flashy"looks? I wonder.
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/21/2010: 08:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... Your computer translation resulted in something best called - Nonsens! LOL!
F.ex. -- flaming Ulf -- was translated to something like "Ulf on fire".
Posting was translated to "outstationing". Etc.
So itīs better continuing with some poor english writing, I think -...
Hi Polle -- Yes... I expected that. And those are great examples of the problem. "Flaming" DOES mean "on fire" -- but not literally, when used on the internet. And "outstationing" IS a word for sending personnel to a far-away office. Diplomats are "posted" at a foreign embassy, etc. Example: . . . "We are in the process of outstationing critical personnel to our
. . . Copenhagen office. Once at their post, the surveillance of Mr.
. . . Flaunoe's evil banjo activities will commence." . . . [KGB memo - intercepted 2/20/10]  They are LITERAL translations -- but they miss the subtle meaning of the conversation. But many people use computer translation, to communicate around the world. (And, in my case, High School French -- which is terrible!) In ANY language, one word can have MANY different meanings. So There ARE misunderstandings due to using the incorrect "symantics" or connotations of a word. Good communication requires effort, and tolerance, in BOTH directions. Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/21/2010 09:01:30
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2010: 09:21:35
Ed,
It seems, that you may have some danish or UK roots - the nature of your humor indicates this somehow - LOL! I love that KGB memo!
Best
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/21/2010: 11:44:55
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed, It seems, that you may have some danish or UK roots - the nature of your humor indicates
this somehow - LOL! I love that KGB memo!
Well... my hair was red as a teenager, and my beard used to be reddish-brown -- before it went white... (Those Viking plunderers in Ireland or Scotland, no doubt!) The surname "Britt" was apparently derived from "Brett", which was a name for a person from Breton (France) -- and originally a Celt, by heritage. The Scottish side of the family (The Mulhollands) didn't get along with the Irish side of the family (O'Mearas, O'Donnells, McNeils, O'Haires, and Britts). Even though the Mulhollands had originally emigrated from Ireland -- to Scotland -- in the 1820s... (Social climbers!) So... I'm argumentative by nature... Best- Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/21/2010 11:46:16
jimbonova - Posted - 05/08/2010: 17:33:34
Just got an old tenor with a Guckert tone rim off ebay... should arrive soon . It looks really odd, but I'm hoping it gets nice tone.
|
Feeds
