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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: 9mm - maximum effective range?


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nodster - Posted - 01/21/2010:  11:44:45


I'm having a difference of opinion with someone about this at the moment and I know I'm going to get the definitive answer here. The question is in the subject - what's the maximum effective range of a 9mm parabellum pistol loaded with normal rounds. In other words, if someone was shooting at you, at what range would you feel safe? Me? I think it would be more than 30 yards - but maybe I'm just gun-shy.

dat - Posted - 01/21/2010:  11:48:57


I wouldn't want to be shot with a bb gun, but I'ld say probably 40 to 50 yards

Budedm - Posted - 01/21/2010:  11:52:16


If you are the shooter, I'd say it would be pretty hard to be accurate past 25 yards. OTOH, if you were being shot at, and somehow managed to get hit at 100 yards away, it may still kill you if it hit you in the chest.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  11:59:53


Maximum Effective Range: How far an average soldier can shoot and hit the target.


Here's the rub, the Maximum Effective Range is something you need only to worry about in war or hunting, for home defense it's a different animal. Most gun fights happen with in 7 yards. You may have a hard time explaining to the judge why you had to shoot someone at 30 yards.

Now for you question, it depends on the gun and your ability. With the pistol that's being used by the US Army, it's 50 yards for the average soldier. BUT that's the Maximum Effective Range and not the killing range.


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 12:06:41

nodster - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:11:59


Hugh - thank you. So in other words if I didn't like you and I was armed with a 9mm pistol with say a 4 inch barrel (not a competition gun) and you were skipping around 30 yards away - would I have a reasonable chance of hitting you. My instinctive answer would be yes. But I've never actually tried using a handgun at that range and maybe there's some ballistic quirk (short barrel etc) that would make it ineffective. But logic would suggest that a 100+ grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 250mps would hurt someone at 30 yards. And a little fall in elevation over the distance wouldn't be too hard to compensate for.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:17:09


quote:
Originally posted by nodster

Hugh - thank you. So in other words if I didn't like you and I was armed with a 9mm pistol with say a 4 inch barrel (not a competition gun) and you were skipping around 30 yards away - would I have a reasonable chance of hitting you. My instinctive answer would be yes. But I've never actually tried using a handgun at that range and maybe there's some ballistic quirk (short barrel etc) that would make it ineffective. But logic would suggest that a 100+ grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 250mps would hurt someone at 30 yards. And a little fall in elevation over the distance wouldn't be too hard to compensate for.



You bet, at 30 yds you could knock someones "you know what" in to the dirt.

nodster - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:21:20


Hugh - thank you again. My question answered. :)

Forrest - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:22:48


I would guess that a 9mm would remain deadly out to at least 200 yards, since it would think it would have at least 100 ft/lbs of force with a 124+ gr bullet.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  12:41:55


You're welcome Nod.

sdfarris - Posted - 01/21/2010:  13:00:11


100m according to Wikipedia

"The effective range of the 9mm is about 100 m although the bullet does travel and is lethal at longer ranges."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

Mopick - Posted - 01/21/2010:  13:00:16


quote:
Originally posted by nodster

Hugh - thank you. So in other words if I didn't like you and I was armed with a 9mm pistol with say a 4 inch barrel (not a competition gun) and you were skipping around 30 yards away - would I have a reasonable chance of hitting you. My instinctive answer would be yes. But I've never actually tried using a handgun at that range and maybe there's some ballistic quirk (short barrel etc) that would make it ineffective. But logic would suggest that a 100+ grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 250mps would hurt someone at 30 yards. And a little fall in elevation over the distance wouldn't be too hard to compensate for.



Of course, if someone is shooting at you from 30 yards out, you don't want to be standing still. You would make yourself a hard target. Drop, roll, serpentine, get the flock out of there. It wouldn't be so easy to hit someone who is taking evasive action. If you did hit them at 30 yards it would inflict damage or cause the demise of the said person. And there's always the possibility that person may be shooting back at you, in which case you would want to make yourself a hard target. It would distract from being able to take careful aim.

Your best bet is always a .50 cal Barrett at 1,500 meters or 4,900 feet.


Randy

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  13:36:40


Do you already own a pistol that is chambered for a 9mm, or are you thinking of purchasing a suitable pistol for self defense?

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  14:08:46


quote:
Originally posted by sdfarris

100m according to Wikipedia

"The effective range of the 9mm is about 100 m although the bullet does travel and is lethal at longer ranges."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum



If your talking about a 9mm rifles but we're talking about a pistols. 100 m is a little far for the average GI to shoot with a pistol making 100 m the Maximum Effective Range.

Right from the US Army FM 3-23.35, US Army Pistol M-9 (Beretta 92)




COMPONENT TECHNICAL DATA

Caliber 9 x 9mm (9mm NATO) @ 1,230 FPS
Diameter of bore .356 in.
Length 217 mm (8.54 in.)
Width 38 mm (1.50 in.)
Height 140 mm (5.51 in.)
Weight with 15-round magazine 1,134 g (2.50 lb.)
Weight with empty magazine 960 g (2.12 lb.)
Barrel length 125 mm (4.92 in.)
Muzzle velocity 375 m/sec (1,230 ft/sec)
Maximum effective range 50 m (45.7 yd)
Maximum Range 1,800 m (1,962.2 yd)

Cyclic rate of fire 1,100 rpm
Trigger pull 4 to 6.5 lb single action and7.5 to 16.6 lb double action
Maximum Range 1,800 meters (1,962.2 yards)


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 14:41:16

Sheldon - Posted - 01/21/2010:  14:42:59


Isn't 50m about 55 yards? . . . . . . Small difference I know.

Sheldon

dat - Posted - 01/21/2010:  14:46:43


one thing to remember is Range and Effective range, there is a lot of difference.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  14:47:35


There use to be a + or - when it came to Max ER... like the Max ER of the M-14 use to be 425 m to 450 m. It still is but there are some that can hit what they're shooting at at twice that range and further.

The Max. ER is what the average GI can shoot with his weapon if it's in the range of his weapon.


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 14:53:28

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:02:53


Or was it 450 m to 475 m ...heck I can't remember.

Sheldon: maybe there was a "switch-a-roo" in the numbers.

dat - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:19:51


like a buddy of mine that was in the Marines said, when there is a big black sum butch standing over him saying that he was going to hit that 800 meter target, he hit it, that was with the .223 though


Edited by - dat on 01/21/2010 15:23:14

jeremy blankenship - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:21:53


In shooting competition handguns for several years. I mainly shoot 9mm. It is not uncommon to have to take a shot out to 25-30yds. I can hit this pretty easy. Though you have to aim a little high its still possible. I shoot factory load or the equal handload. I would think for my abilities and weapon anything past 40 yds is pushing it. If I had to say my comfort range though, it would be 25yds or less.

I should update that I shoot stock service pistol. Nothing fancy. Just stock Glock19 or17.


Edited by - jeremy blankenship on 01/21/2010 15:28:17

dat - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:24:21


I would say with my 45 about 25 yards is about as far as I would feel comfortable with, but that's about as far as I've ever tried to shoot with it

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:45:49


I've never been in a shootout, and I hope to keep it that way.
But I have heard and read of almost comical stories where experienced shooters, criminals, even law enforcement people, have fired multiple shots at almost point blank range, only to miss their target. There was a famous shootout that took place in Miami that exemplified this.
Not that it's funny, funny, but funny strange.
Apparently under that amount of stress, fine motor skills just go out the window, time slows, tunnel vision develops, and highly trained people can miss their targets from 3 feet away.
I saw on the History channel, Old West Tech, a reenactment of a shootout that took place in a bar, where two gunfighters chased each other around a card table. They shot and shot, until finally both had emptied their 6-guns. Neither individual had a scratch on him !

spaz - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:48:34


i'd have to say it depends more on factors other than the round though.. the shooter, how tired/excited s/he is, the gun, sometimes the ammo.. also there are many who'd argue a .45 is more 'effective' than a 9mm at any range assuming the same accuracy..

if I had someone shooting at me i'd have to say i'd feel more comfortable being somewhere else..

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:51:21


I have a buddy that shots a .38 Super in competition.

I shoot a 7mm TCU and .44 mags out to 100 and 200 yds but that a different kind of shooting.

mastertone250 - Posted - 01/21/2010:  15:51:51


quote:
Originally posted by jeremy blankenship

In shooting competition handguns for several years. I mainly shoot 9mm. It is not uncommon to have to take a shot out to 25-30yds. I can hit this pretty easy. Though you have to aim a little high its still possible. I shoot factory load or the equal handload. I would think for my abilities and weapon anything past 40 yds is pushing it. If I had to say my comfort range though, it would be 25yds or less.

I should update that I shoot stock service pistol. Nothing fancy. Just stock Glock19 or17.



I love glock handguns, i have a Glock 17 9mm and a Glock 21 45.. Those things are designed to last and mine has never jammed since ive had them

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:20:18


I have been taking this combat type course for about 18 months. It is not martial arts, it centers mostly around Israeli Defense Forces hand to hand and knife training, and some firearms training can be had as well.
The guy that teaches this is a formal Navy SEAL, and teaches some pretty hard core stuff, all over the world.
For some reason, Jack Bauer always comes to mind.
In March, I'm gonna go through one of his infamous 3 day pistola clinics. I'm really looking forward to it.
He is a certified armorer for several brands of pistols, but his favorite is Glock. He tried to get me to get a Glock 23, but the handle is too small for my hands.
So for now, I'm just going with my Springfield 1911 .45acp.
I would not be to opposed to the glock, but I don't know that much about them.
Do you have any idea what their largest frame model is in a .45, and how many rounds will it hold ?

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:28:17


ambpicker:

"Point Blank Range" is perhaps the most misunderstood concept in the shooting sports. . "Point Blank Range" is the maximum range one can aim directly at the target.





Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 16:36:38

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:36:31


???

sawyer 12 - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:52:32


Well, I wouldn't want to be shot at with bb gun at 30 yds. Like Hugh said the 9mm or about any other caliber could be deadly as long as you were hit at any distance.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:52:44


ambpicker:

"Point Blank," it's where the line of sight crosses the line of the bullets trajectory...it doesn't mean up close, the TV and even cops get this wrong...They have even gotten it wrong so many times it is now used to describe a shooting that's up close even though it's wrong. The correct term is “Close Range.”

I'm just posting this because you used the term "Point Blank" for "Close Range" in a post. When it comes to guns, it's best we try to keep things correct.


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 16:58:39

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:53:15


Nice picture, but I don't think I was asking about that.
Nice illustration nonetheless.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:56:26


I'm just posting this because you used the term "Point Blank" for "Close Range" in a post. When it comes to guns, it's best we try to keep things correct.

jeremy blankenship - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:57:23


The glock 21 is the large frame .45 cal.... it holds 13+1... its a large pistol for sure. At least to me. I prefer a more compact model for carry. Now back to the original post. Sorry for the hijack.;)

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:18:25


quote:
Originally posted by Nosferatu

I'm just posting this because you used the term "Point Blank" for "Close Range" in a post. When it comes to guns, it's best we try to keep things correct.



I'm all for that.
Actually your post had not yet made it to my computer, so there was a time gap, and I was confused about what you meant.

ambpicker - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:19:45


If you are ever down this way, we ought to get together. There's a half dozen decent ranges within 30 miles of my home.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:22:46


I'm all for it!

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  17:24:40


I'm setting thinking...I think the lawers use the term "Point Blank" is because it sounds bad..."HE shot him POINT BLANK!"

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/21/2010:  19:25:53


Wiki sez some forensics depts use "point blank" to indicate a close range wound that is not 'contact'. It has passed into common usage to mean "so close you don't have to aim".

I prefer "battle zero". IIRC, a Trapdoor's battle zero is something like 276 yds. Keep that Buffington flipped down, hold on the belt buckle from ~300 down to "fix bayonets!"

I really dislike 9mm para. but dearly love my Series 70 1911 in .38 Super. Same bullets but they come out a tad quicker (esp. my handloads).

Don't discount them short-barreled pistols...Bob Munden hit a 14"x 24" steel, rectangle target 200 yards away 4 times in a row using a stock, iron-sighted (no scope) Smith & Wesson Model 60, .38-caliber, double-action revolver with a 2" barrel.

Of course, folks like Bob don't show up very often...

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  19:53:09


"Wiki sez some forensics depts use "point blank" to indicate a close range wound that is not 'contact'. It has passed into common usage to mean "so close you don't have to aim"." -- Trapdoor

That's correct but it's still wrong, it will be as long the correct usage is still being used..."He shot the man at "Point Blank Range." Did the lawer mean he shot the man at 357 yards or at 2 feet?


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/21/2010 19:55:29

Banjoitus - Posted - 01/21/2010:  21:42:12


There is one caveat to shooting 9mm handguns. There is such a variety manufacture of 9mm ammunition, that it could come into play. I have seen (ammo produced in the northwestern US), that would not even distort when shot through an EMPTY 2 liter plastic bottle into a non compacted dirt bank from 25 yards. Corbon 9mm would be an altogether different prospect.

Hugh, the .38 Super you refer to would probably be a competition semi auto, but I owned a SIG 220 in .38 Super that was a very, very good shooter. You could hit a coffee can at 50 plus yards and still have enough energy to bounce it into the air! The Super, and a 686 .357 magnum with a six inch barrel were the most accurate long distance handguns I ever owned and sadly I no longer own either firearm now. My son, however, bought me a Performance Center 8 shot .357 that is a lot of fun to shoot, but I don't think it is as accurate as that old 686 was at long range. Long range shooting with a handgun is mostly for entertainment though, if you need to shoot farther, it's time for a shoulder weapon.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/21/2010:  21:50:33


"Long range shooting with a handgun is mostly for entertainment though, if you need to shoot farther, it's time for a shoulder weapon." -- Banjoitus

I take deer at 100 + yds with my Super Black, I don't think hunting is entertainment, some may but I don't.

Banjoitus - Posted - 01/21/2010:  22:07:44


Hugh, the Super Black Hawk is a very, very, powerful handgun, and is beyond the reach of most shooters to become really effective with. My oldest son is a very powerful man, and regularly shoots a Red Hawk single and double action. He can squeeze off shots at very respectable distances using double action. I don't call hunting entertainment, but, for most people shooting at 100 yards plus ESPECIALLY hunting would be much more humane using a rifle in favor of any sort of handgun. I have taken a number of bear with an old Super Black Hawk, but after an incident that cured my younger son of ever going to the woods with me again, I ALWAYS used a rifle on bear after that. I am in no way offering argument, only expressing my personal opinion gained through a lot of years spent in the woods. I agree the Super Black Hawk is very capable of doing just what you suggest.

Brian T - Posted - 01/21/2010:  23:00:52


I shot some competition with various pistols. Very big head game. Any pistol clamped into a Ransom rest is surprisingly accurate. Then, I knew for sure it was me at fault. After 5,000 - 10,000 rounds of .22LR per year, my guess is that it would be pretty hard to hit a moving, man-sized target beyond 30-40 yards, particularly with the second shot. The Dan Wesson .357 was a dream to shoot, the Unique Vitesse (when the game used .22cal shorts) was fun. My IHMSA 7mm/.308 pistol could poke a hole in 1/2" mild steel at 200m.

Mopick - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:23:52


quote:
Originally posted by Banjoitus

Hugh, the Super Black Hawk is a very, very, powerful handgun, and is beyond the reach of most shooters to become really effective with. My oldest son is a very powerful man, and regularly shoots a Red Hawk single and double action. He can squeeze off shots at very respectable distances using double action. I don't call hunting entertainment, but, for most people shooting at 100 yards plus ESPECIALLY hunting would be much more humane using a rifle in favor of any sort of handgun. I have taken a number of bear with an old Super Black Hawk, but after an incident that cured my younger son of ever going to the woods with me again, I ALWAYS used a rifle on bear after that. I am in no way offering argument, only expressing my personal opinion gained through a lot of years spent in the woods. I agree the Super Black Hawk is very capable of doing just what you suggest.



I'm not the greatest shot with a pistol, but me and some of my buds were out shooting at an outdoor range. I hit a coke can six time with my .357 magnum Black hawk at 25 yards and surprised my friends. I couldn't hit a paper plate at 25 yards with my Colt 1911 .45 A.C.P. the same day. And I had a lot of work done on the 1911. I sold that weapon. One of the few regrets I have in life was selling that one.

Right now my favorite is a Glock 19, 9mm but it's not really concealable. It fits nicely in the glove box though and I have an 18 round clip that shoots all day long.


Randy


Edited by - Mopick on 01/22/2010 05:28:28

BConk - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:32:56


quote:
Originally posted by Banjoitus

The Super, and a 686 .357 magnum with a six inch barrel were the most accurate long distance handguns I ever owned and sadly I no longer own either firearm now.



I got one of them - sweeeeeet gun!

Mopick - Posted - 01/22/2010:  05:35:14


A few years ago, my wife's mother was in the hospital in Jonesboro Arkansas with terminal cancer. We had driven up from Florida to see her. My mother lives in Little Rock, about 3 hours from Jonesboro. Mom drove up to Jonesboro and we we got motel rooms. Mom was in our room and we were unloading the car. I said, "I'll be right back. I have to get the CPU." Mom said, "CPU?" I said, "Yeah....CPU. The Crime Prevention Unit." I went out to the car and got my Ruger Black Hawk .357 Magnum and brought in in. "CPU." I said with a smile. Mom just went ooooooooh!


Randy

carlos - Posted - 01/22/2010:  06:00:41


i reload about 8 calibers the one true thing I know is the bigger the hole the more blood pours out so Ill go witha 45 or bigger,I have some mouse guns but they are a last ditch effort.A pistol is used to get to your rifle or shotgun .Several forensics experts looking at dead bodies you cant tell what caliber the unless its big.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/22/2010:  06:23:57


quote:
Originally posted by Nosferatu

"Wiki sez some forensics depts use "point blank" to indicate a close range wound that is not 'contact'. It has passed into common usage to mean "so close you don't have to aim"." -- Trapdoor

That's correct but it's still wrong, it will be as long the correct usage is still being used..."He shot the man at "Point Blank Range." Did the lawer mean he shot the man at 357 yards or at 2 feet?

I disagree, not wrong at all. Once a term is co-opted, the term simply gains a secondary definition. They're both right.

Nosferatu - Posted - 01/22/2010:  08:10:09


Tell that to a "Cannon Cocker."

It's like calling a simi-auto rifle an auto-rifle, it's done but it's wrong.


Edited by - Nosferatu on 01/22/2010 08:13:05

ambpicker - Posted - 01/22/2010:  09:06:31


One of my favorite handguns is a Ruger Blackhawk, it has 2 cylinders, a .45 Colt and a .45 ACP. It is pretty much stock, except for some after market grips.
A while back, guns and ammo had a writer on staff, Ross Seyfried. He was and still is one of the great ones. He did some articles on the .45 Colt, and what you can do with a Ruger Blackhawk.
I have a brother who is set up for reloading and we used some of those loads, I'm not gonna repeat them here, but the bullet was a 300gr hard cast SWC. We had chronographed this load right at 1200 fps.
Ross actually used this load on large, dangerous African game in his guide days. I believe he even used it on elephant.
The recoil was "stout", I guess you'd say, but certainly manageable with the aftermarket grips.
I was working in a pharmacy one Saturday as a relief pharmacist a long time ago, I think it was 1992. I found myself in a bad position with 2 gentlemen with a long criminal history.
I did carry this in my vehicle at the time, and it seemed like an extremely bad situation was emminent.
Luckily, law enforcement arrived just at the last possible moment.
I feel like I was certainly up to defending myself at the time, I had the weapon for it, I promise you that. Even though no shots had to be fired, I had the shakes for a week.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 01/22/2010:  09:24:25


quote:
Originally posted by Brian T

I shot some competition with various pistols. my guess is that it would be pretty hard to hit a moving, man-sized target beyond 30-40 yards, particularly with the second shot.



I shot the Bianchi Cup competition a few times. It includes a stage where you shoot at a moving target at 25 yards. The target moves across the range and is visible for only six seconds, you need to draw your pistol and put six rounds into it.

For people who doubt the ability of a shooter to hit a moving target, Ray Chapman, the originator of the Bianchi Cup competition used to demo the mover by drawing, shooting six rounds, dropping his magazine and reloading, then shooting another six rounds, all within the allotted time. He hit the target with all of his rounds.

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