alfiedog - Posted - 01/09/2010:  17:16:53

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Well i had a Lesson today, and i got a bit confused my Teacher is trying to explain the Circle of 5ths, and other theory stuff. But i came away very happy as he really explained the Nashville Number system (which i did understand to a certain level) the problem was. I was thinking to much about Transposing the Chords. He had me just playing closed Chord in the F & D shape . Then starting a Tune quickly in say C
AND JUST CONCENTRATING ON THE CHORD SHAPES. After a while of doing this i realised that its the same shapes up and down the Neck. Just stick to the Chord progression and you have sussed it. This might sound complex but its pretty easy.

mebacon - Posted - 01/09/2010:  18:06:28

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Dear Alfiedog,

Basic understanding of the circle of 5ths will get you a long way. Take your right hand. Start with your little finger which will be the I chord. Count around from whatever note you start at and you will get the IV and V chords on the index and thumb respectively. For example, in G, G A B C D, so the I chord is G, IV is C, V is D. In A, I chord is A, IV is D, V is E. An so on and so forth. There is an occasional B flat or F sharp, but the general rule will get you down the road a ways. Also when you make a I chord in the D shape, if you change to the F shape and move up the neck (that is towards the head) one fret that is the IV chord and if you move up the neck two more frets and stay in the F shape that is the V chord. If you start in the F shape and that is the I chord, if you move down the neck (towards the nut) three frets and change to the D shape, that is the IV chord, then if you move up the neck two frets, that is the V chord.

Good pickin,

Marty

Banjo Vern - Posted - 01/10/2010:  01:46:39

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Wow, I'm lost. I think it's time I got some lessons. I'm going to the beginers workshop in Derby on the 23rd but does anybody know of a teacher in the South Yorkshire/North Nottinghamshire area?

From what I've seen on your videos Alfiedog you've learnt alot.

Cheers Banjo Vern.

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 01/10/2010:  03:15:51

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Ken Perlman offers a very simple, articulate, and clear explanation of the Circle, and its utility in banjo playing, in the November issue of Banjo Newsletter. I'm as much of a piece of wood on this stuff as you, but Ken brought some clarity to the subject, for me at least.

alfiedog - Posted - 01/10/2010:  03:38:49

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Hey up Vern,
Jonny Hulme who i have lessons with lives, and teaches in Leeds. And travels over to Manchester every other weekend to teach. If you drop me a PM i can give you his contact details.

5stringpicker2 - Posted - 01/10/2010:  06:59:20

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Whaaaaa?

(I )===='---<::)

buckbybanjoboy - Posted - 01/10/2010:  07:41:40

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I have much admiration for pickers who can understand music theory but I just put my digits on the finger board and move them about a bit whilst moving the other hand over the strings at the fat end of the instrument. If this creates a pleasing sound then its OK by me. I`ve got too many bad habits at my age to try the Nashville Circle of 5ths. etc. although more power to your elbow if you have the patience for it.

Regards from an unusually cold UK................................................Peter V.

joemac - Posted - 01/10/2010:  08:34:51

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Chord progressions pretty easy eh?....mmmmm

joemac - Posted - 01/10/2010:  08:37:56

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Only joshin with ya Eddie, but dont presume it to be to easy, yep i agree the major shapes can be mastered fast.....then the work starts!!!!!!!!

alfiedog - Posted - 01/10/2010:  08:45:33

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Oh Joe, I thought it was easy but after yesterday i am not to sure. I am still trying to remove my Head from my Butt hole, after that lot was explained to me

joemac - Posted - 01/10/2010:  09:02:48

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Dont worry Bud, i'll help ya out on the day, see me when its done and we can share some pickin time, i will show ya some tricks, i intend to let everyone have a sit round for the last hour and pick anyhow, so we can share some stuff, will be good. Bob, my guitarist is comming to assist as well....Joe

Unplugged - Posted - 01/10/2010:  09:14:23

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One of the really big awareness that the "banjo challenge" has taught me is that (at least for me) the process takes time and effort. It's not just the struggle, but the willingness to stay with the learning curve (both the motor skills and the conceptual skills) is paramount.

The circle of fifths is "easy" - once you finally "get it". I use the analogy of pumping gas: If you've never done it before, it can be pretty confusing. Once you've done it a couple of times - even with different kinds of pumps - there's a higher level of confidence and strategy.

Except for my marriage, I've never had to work so hard at anything as I have with banjo.

alfiedog - Posted - 01/10/2010:  09:14:56

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Cheers Joe. Might have removed my Head by then

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/10/2010:  09:47:21

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I wouldn't worry about the circle of fifths yet.

You have just discovered that if you strum/vamp your way thru 20 or 50 or 100 songs just doing songs you know from songbooks, you will magically discover how chord theory works. Most folks learn a bunch of banjo junque in G that their teacher says is a song but they can't hear it. Then they learn how capos work and stuff like that. makes theory complicated.

If you play 10 songs in the key of G using chords up-the-neck, and then play ten songs in C or Bb or Eb or _any_ other key, you will see those chord patterns on the banjo faster than I could teach them to you. I've had students discover the patterns quickly simply by strumming thru a couple music books the way a guitar player with a single lesson would have done. Those folks grok the circle of fifths.

For alfiedog, here is your next exercise.
Play the circle of FOURTHS on the banjo without naming the chords. (Fourths is just going around the circle of fifths the other way but the exercise on banjo works better)

Start with the lowest D chord: 4234 Now you know what the shape is for going up a 4th from a D shape. You slide up onbe fret and make an F shape.

Now you're sitting on an F-shape chord (concert G). You know what the next 4th up from that shape is, too. It is a barre across the fret the Ring finger is on. Play it.

Now you're sitting on a barre chord. You know what the next 4th is up from the barre, it is a D shape with the lowest finger wherever the barre was. Play it. Now you're sitting on an F-shape again. Go up a fourth. Ta da.

You can do the whole circle of fifths going up or down by fourths or fifths and play it without having to memorize all the underlying theory.

P.S. Spend an hour or two a week just chording thru songbooks at random. That will be more useful for showing your theory than theory lessons (and you will also discover the relative minor positions). practicing thisl also gets you used to picking up the basic chord progressions to new songs quickly, a wonderful skill for jamming with others.

alfiedog - Posted - 01/10/2010:  11:23:58

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Thanks Mike. Its ok i am not worried about the Circle of 5ths because i dont fully understand it yet. So i will take your advice and just work on Chord progression plus its a bit easier on the Brain

jahenbo - Posted - 01/11/2010:  08:48:14

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Hey Mike,
This is Jay from NC. I was reading that you need to pull your head out of the posterior end of your anatomy. Well something I have offered to the guys that work for me when they have that affliction is a plexiotomy. Thats where they insert a piece of plexyglass is your stomach so you can see where you are going when you have your head up you ...... well you know.LOL Hey in my opinion you guys over on that side are so lucky getting to go to a work shop with Joe. I wish I could swing a trip over there to hang out with ya'll at your workshop. Anyway hang with Joe he'll get things straight for you.
Jay
Keep on pickin'

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/11/2010:  12:54:53

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I started out playing tenor banjo, which is tuned in fifths like a violin or mandolin. This made understanding the circle of fifths very easy and practical.

When trying to follow a song, if I didn't know where the progression was going, I could move the chord pattern across the strings and the chord would move up a fifth or down a fifth. 75% of the time I'd hit the right chord.

This was a feature of the tenor that I missed when I switched to plectrum.

BEEFUS - Posted - 01/23/2010:  18:35:49

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Muzik theery are Reel Eezy, but th ole Surkle uv Fifthses are Very Confoozing.

it better to starts with th Triangle uv Foarteenths!

starts with yer Thum on th B stringk an yer Big Toe on th Bridge. Then yu cownts up Foarty-Seven notchis to th Sixtieth Frett an stick yr Nose on th G stringk. Ninety fretz down frum th square roots uv Eleventeen are H Sharp Miner, which everwun knoze are th Relative Conundrump uv the Key uv Nothing Flatt. If yu straddle th Banjo an howl like a Roostur, then th Dorian Moad splitz th Atom an armies uv Elektrik Weazels go scooterin across yer Linoleump makin yur Hed spin an yr spine jump owt uv yr Bakboan an then th men in white smash downs th Doar an nex thing yu kno yu gots a mettle Spike in yr teeth an yr purrin like a kittykat with yr armps all tide up!!!!!!!!

whooey! that how BEEFUS makes hims Muzik, anyways! yu shud Try its!

(But bettur spray yr Banjo with non-stik Spray furst!)

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Edited by - BEEFUS on 01/23/2010 18:37:04

hsjim - Posted - 02/04/2010:  14:21:10

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I just sprayed coffee all over my keyboard.





"Just 'cause your cat had kittens in the oven, don't mean we're gonna call 'em biscuits"

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 02/04/2010:  18:32:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by buckbybanjoboy

I have much admiration for pickers who can understand music theory but I just put my digits on the finger board and move them about a bit whilst moving the other hand over the strings at the fat end of the instrument. If this creates a pleasing sound then its OK by me. I`ve got too many bad habits at my age to try the Nashville Circle of 5ths. etc. although more power to your elbow if you have the patience for it.

Regards from an unusually cold UK................................................Peter V.

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FWIW, The Circle of Fifths in not a Nashville thing- classical musicians have been kicking around for centuries. (And "More Power To Your Elbow" is an excellent book produced by the Lowland and Border Pipers Society as a resource for players of Scottish smallpipes and Lowland pipes)

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Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 02/04/2010 18:35:01

sjyokel - Posted - 02/05/2010:  06:54:48

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Seems like there are some teachers out there that toss the circle of fifths at their students like it's the answer to all their problems, but if you don't understand how chords (or triads) are created in the first place, the circle of fifths won't make any sense at all. I mean, if you don't know what a "fifth" is, what good is a whole circle of 'em?

Start with this: http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory...d-scale.html. Learn how chords are built using scales and what chords belong to each key (it's easier than you might think). Then the circle of fifths (at least as it applies to banjo playing) will make sense.

alfiedog - Posted - 02/08/2010:  16:42:44

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Some Cool replies here from the Beef, and Cleatus, Thanks Guys i love this place.
And Beefus you should Bin the Electrical Banjo and stick to the non Plughole type they sound Miles better Mate.

BEEFUS - Posted - 02/08/2010:  17:46:35

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quote:

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Beefus you should Bin the Electrical Banjo and stick to the non Plughole type they sound Miles better Mate

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BEEFUS gots a differmint opinyun! heer are PROOF that the Elektrikul Banjo are THE BOMB!

FEEST yr EERS on THIS an tell me th Elektrikul Banjo are not Sooperiur to th Oal Fashun Non Plug-Hoal Banjo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tia87o9G0k

(heh, that are sum fine oal stuffs!)

alfiedog - Posted - 02/09/2010:  16:51:20

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Soz Beef Man. dont agree mate Plughole Jo sound like a cheap Fender Stratt, Non Plughole sounds mighty, mighty GOOD. Get rid of the Amplification Beef, and stick to the Resonation.

BEEFUS - Posted - 02/09/2010:  17:04:42

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in fakt, BEEFUS are abowt to takes yur advise, soart of. Haf-way. BEEFUS are switchin soon to THIS vishun of byooty -- kinda half Akoustic half Plug-Hoal:



heh, yu probly think this iz Wurss!